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interests / soc.genealogy.medieval / Re: Thank you, Taf!

SubjectAuthor
* Thank you, Taf!Cindy H.
`* Re: Thank you, Taf!taf
 +* Re: Thank you, Taf!joseph cook
 |`- Re: Thank you, Taf!Cindy H.
 `- Re: Thank you, Taf!taf

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Thank you, Taf!

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Subject: Thank you, Taf!
From: iamch...@gmail.com (Cindy H.)
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 by: Cindy H. - Sun, 30 Jan 2022 22:09 UTC

Taf, thank you so much for your most helpful, detailed, and quick reply!

As I understand it, a man's shield could be quartered to display his mother's arms on the sinister side if his mother were a heraldic heiress.

Since Katherine Stradling was not, I gather that one would not expect to see the arms of her presumed father, Sir Edward Stradling, on the shield of her presumed son, Sir Walter Dennis, or on Walter's memorial brass in the chapel of Olveston Church, or among any of the heraldic shields displayed on the wings of Siston Court.

Question: When I clicked on "reply all" in order to post directly to this thread, no text field appeared where I could write a reply. Thus, I'm replying via "New Conversation." Is that the only way to reply to a message on a thread? This is my first time doing this!

Cindy H.

Re: Thank you, Taf!

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Subject: Re: Thank you, Taf!
From: taf.medi...@gmail.com (taf)
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 by: taf - Mon, 31 Jan 2022 01:17 UTC

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 2:09:56 PM UTC-8, Cindy H. wrote:

> As I understand it, a man's shield could be quartered to display his
> mother's arms on the sinister side if his mother were a heraldic heiress.

This is crossing two different practices. Quartering is what would be done by the son of an heiress, and would (as the name suggests) involve dividing the shield in quarters, forming a 2 by 2 grid. with the father's in dexter-top and sinister-bottom quadrants (1 & 4) the heiress mother's in the others (2 & 3). As additional heiresses brought in additional arms (or if a single heiress brought in multiple arms), these are added to the quartering arrangement, substituting first in quadrant 3, then quadrant 4, then the 'quarters' would become divisions of 6, 8, etc., to accommodate more, with some 17th century ones being absolutely absurd, with 2 dozen or more.

What you are describing, with just two arms, one dexter, one sinister, is 'impaling' and represents a marriage, where the husband's goes on the dexter side, and the wife's on the sinister side, and this would be done whether the wife was an heiress or not. It only pertained to the married couple, and a son of the marriage would quarter instead, but only if the wife was an heiress.

Note that like everything else, these were typical practices, not rules, and I can think of examples where the wife's/mother's arms were given precedence over the father's/husband's in both quartered and impaled arrangements (when Walter Blount married the Toledo noblewoman Sancha de Ayala, the exotic Ayala arms were given precedence), and on occasion, other things were done to represent the union, such as using an inescutcheon - a mini-shield placed overtop the paternal arms, or on a canton - a block placed in the top dexter corner - rather than impaling or quartering.

> Since Katherine Stradling was not, I gather that one would not expect
> to see the arms of her presumed father, Sir Edward Stradling, on the
> shield of her presumed son, Sir Walter Dennis, or on Walter's memorial
> brass in the chapel of Olveston Church, or among any of the heraldic
> shields displayed on the wings of Siston Court.

Not on his shield. As to his brass or other funerary display, that could be different. Some of these memorial showed prior marriages of the family, so one might see Dennis impaling Stradling to represent his parents' marriage, but there was a lot of whim involved in what to display in these, so I wouldn't be surprised either way, if they included it or if they didn't.

> Question: When I clicked on "reply all" in order to post directly to this thread,
> no text field appeared where I could write a reply. Thus, I'm replying via "New
> Conversation." Is that the only way to reply to a message on a thread? This is
> my first time doing this!

Not clear what is going wrong, but if you are using Google Groups, hitting Reply All is the only way to respond in the group.

taf

Re: Thank you, Taf!

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Subject: Re: Thank you, Taf!
From: joec...@gmail.com (joseph cook)
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 by: joseph cook - Mon, 31 Jan 2022 03:26 UTC

> > Question: When I clicked on "reply all" in order to post directly to this thread,
> > no text field appeared where I could write a reply. Thus, I'm replying via "New
> > Conversation." Is that the only way to reply to a message on a thread? This is
> > my first time doing this!
> Not clear what is going wrong, but if you are using Google Groups, hitting Reply All is the only way to respond in the group.

For what it is worth, I have the same problem using android phone on google groups; if it lets me reply at all.
---Joe C

Re: Thank you, Taf!

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Subject: Re: Thank you, Taf!
From: iamch...@gmail.com (Cindy H.)
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 by: Cindy H. - Mon, 31 Jan 2022 16:30 UTC

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 10:26:31 PM UTC-5, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Question: When I clicked on "reply all" in order to post directly to this thread,
> > > no text field appeared where I could write a reply. Thus, I'm replying via "New
> > > Conversation." Is that the only way to reply to a message on a thread? This is
> > > my first time doing this!
> > Not clear what is going wrong, but if you are using Google Groups, hitting Reply All is the only way to respond in the group.
> For what it is worth, I have the same problem using android phone on google groups; if it lets me reply at all.
> ---Joe C
taf, thanks to your posts I know a great deal more about heraldry today than I did yesterday! Joe, I hope you can figure out the problem.

Re: Thank you, Taf!

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Subject: Re: Thank you, Taf!
From: taf.medi...@gmail.com (taf)
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 by: taf - Tue, 1 Feb 2022 02:48 UTC

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 5:17:09 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:
> Note that like everything else, these were typical practices, not rules, and I can
> think of examples where the wife's/mother's arms were given precedence over
> the father's/husband's in both quartered and impaled arrangements (when
> Walter Blount married the Toledo noblewoman Sancha de Ayala, the exotic
> Ayala arms were given precedence), and on occasion, other things were done
> to represent the union, such as using an inescutcheon - a mini-shield placed
> overtop the paternal arms, or on a canton - a block placed in the top dexter
> corner - rather than impaling or quartering.

Minor correction for the archives - the arms of Sancha de Ayala given precedence on their marital shield were not the 'Ayala arms' (those of her mother's family), but her father's (he had no surname).

Also, lest it give the wrong impression, the alternatives I mentioned (inescutcheon and canton) are rare, not common at all. Perhaps the most interesting instance of a canton is that of Warenne of Pointon, whose founder was illegitmate, putting his mother's arms as canton on his father's. This reflects him receiving legacies via both, but they were formally granted by will and fine, not directly inherited, and the arms adoption would, by later rules, have required a specific grant but such things were a lot more fluid in earlier centuries.

taf

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