On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 10:04:30 AM UTC-7, chapm...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, January 8, 2001 at 12:23:04 AM UTC-5, douglasr...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Dear Charles:
> >
> > Thank you for post below regarding the colonial immigrant, Diana
> > Skipwith, wife of Major Edward Dale, of Lancaster Co., Virginia. I'd
> > be glad to share my comments on this matter.
> >
> > As your recent article in TAG pointed out, Diana Skipwith is known to
> > have appeared under her maiden name in records dated 1655, whereas her
> > husband, Edward Dale's eldest daughter, Katherine (Dale) Carter, was
> > evidently born about 1652. Under normal circumstances, one would
> > conclude that if Diana witnessed under her maiden name after
> > Katherine's birth, that Diana couldn't possibly by Katherine's mother.
> > This would presumably be an open and shut case.
> >
> > However, there was a rare custom among high born Englishwomen of this
> > period to use their maiden names after marriage. As the daughter of a
> > knight and a English baronet, Diana Skipwith was one of the highest
> > born English women ever to come to the New World. Due to her high
> > station then, we should not be surprised to see her using her maiden
> > name after marriage. As such, one must seek other evidence to prove or
> > disprove whether or not Diana was Katherine's mother. In this case,
> > there are no less than ten pieces of evidences which suggest that Diana
> > was Katherine's mother.
> >
> > First, research indicates that Diana Skipwith was born in 1621, in
> > England. If she was still single in 1655, as claimed, she would have
> > contracted her marriage to Edward Dale after she had attained her 34th
> > year. This is highly unlikely. The vast majority of Englishwomen in
> > this period were married before their 30th birthday.
> >
> > Second, statements in print suggest that Diana Skipwith's husband,
> > Edward Dale, and her brother, Sir Gray Skipwith, may have immigrated at
> > the same time to Virginia following the death of King Charles I in
> > 1649. If so, it is entirely possible that Diana and Edward were
> > married in England, prior to their appearance in Virginia.
> >
> > Third, Katherine (Dale) Carter had a large family which is well
> > documented in a Carter family prayer book. Among her children, we find
> > a child named Edward for her father, Diana for her mother, and Henry
> > Skipwith for her mother's father. Unless Katherine (Dale) Carter was
> > Diana Skipwith's daughter, it would be difficult to explain the
> > appearance of the name Henry Skipwith Carter among her children.
> >
> > Fourth, the names of the godparents of Katherine (Dale) Carter's
> > children are recorded in the Carter family prayer book. In colonial
> > times, relatives were often employed to serve as godparents. In this
> > case, we find that Diana Skipwith herself served as a godmother as did
> > Diana's brother, Sir Gray Skipwith's widow, Anne Skipwith, of Middlesex
> > Co., Virginia. It would be odd to find Dame Skipwith as a sponsor for
> > Katherine (Dale) Carter's child, unless she had some connection to
> > Katherine (Dale) Carter herself. If Diana Skipwith was Katherine
> > (Dale) Carter's mother, then Dame Skipwith would have been Katherine
> > (Dale) Carter's aunt by marriage.
> >
> > Fifth, there was an long epitaph of Edward Dale's life recorded in the
> > Carter family prayer book. The epitaph states clearly that Edward Dale
> > married Diana Skipwith "early in life" and presents her as his only
> > wife. Presumably the term "early in life" is prior to his 30th
> > birthday. If so, we must assume that Diana was also no more than 30
> > years old herself when she married Edward Dale. This suggests a
> > marriage in or before 1651.
> >
> > Sixth, the death records of Edward Dale and his widow, Diana, are also
> > recorded in the same prayer book. No mention is made of any wife for
> > Edward Dale except Diana Skipwith.
> >
> > Seventh, Edward Dale's will bequeathed his wife, Diana, a life interest
> > in certain property and named his daughter, Katherine, and two Carter
> > grandchildren as his executors. Had Diana been Katherine's step-
> > mother, the usual protocol would be for Diana to hold the executorship
> > to safeguard her interests against her step-children's rights. Since
> > Diana was not named executrix, one must presume that either Diana was
> > too ill to serve as executrix, or else that Diana was Katherine's own
> > mother and that Diana did not need to have her interests safeguarded.
> >
> > Eighth, we find that Diana Skipwith joined her husband, Edward Dale, in
> > conveyances to two of their married daughters, Katherine and
> > Elizabeth. This shows that Diana had a strong interest in Katherine
> > and Elizabeth's future, which one would expect if Diana was their blood
> > mother.
> >
> > Ninth, in one of these conveyances, Diana Skipwith names her son-in-
> > law, Daniel Harrison, who was evidently married to her daughter, Mary
> > Dale. This reference would suggest that Diana had at least one child
> > by Edward Dale. If so, under normal circumstances, we would normally
> > suppose that she married Edward Dale before her 30th birthday which
> > event took place in 1651. Inasmuch as Katherine Dale was born about
> > 1652, Katherine's birth would appear to fall after Diana was likely to
> > have been married to Edward Dale.
> >
> > Tenth, the theory is presented in Mr. Ward's article that Edward Dale
> > may have had an earlier wife before he married Diana Skipwith by whom
> > he had his daughters, Katherine and Mary. It is further suggested that
> > the unknown first wife may have been a relative of Vincent Stanford.
> > This theory is based on the fact that Vincent Stanford left a sizeable
> > bequest to Mary Dale in his will. However, it is doubtful that Vincent
> > Stanford had any blood tie to Mary Dale at all, as in his will, he
> > carefully referred to another legatee as his niece, whereas he made no
> > claim to kinship to Mary Dale. Had Mary Dale been related to the
> > testator, one would presume he would have stated that fact just as he
> > did for the other legatee who he identified as his niece. Since
> > Vincent Stanford did not refer to Mary Dale as his kinswoman, it is
> > inappropriate to conclude that Mary Dale's father might have had
> > earlier unknown first wife, or that the Dale and Stanford families were
> > related by blood or marriage.
> >
> > Regarding the matter of women using their maiden names after marriage,
> > I've located two contemporary examples of women who used their maiden
> > names after marriage. One is widow Mary Kemp, of Gloucester Co.,
> > Virginia who signed two powers of attorney about 1700, one as Mary Kemp
> > and one as Mary Curtis. The editor of Virginia Magazine of History and
> > Biography who reported these powers of attorney stated that Curtis
> > was "doubtless" Mary's maiden name, suggesting that he was aware of the
> > custom for women to use their maiden name's after marriage. The second
> > example I've found is a Chancery suit dated about 1610 in England in
> > which Anne Clere, widow, was sued by the executor of her late husband,
> > William Gilbert's estate. Research shows that Clere was Anne's maiden
> > name. A second chancery suit states she remained a widow for three
> > years and then married (2nd) Okeover Crompton. Like Diana Skipwith,
> > Anne Clere was the daughter of a knight and came from a family with
> > high born relations. Anne (Clere) Gilbert is the maternal grandmother
> > of the colonial immigrant, Elizabeth (Alsop) Baldwin, of Milford,
> > Connecticut.
> >
> > In closing, I wish to state that should anyone know of any other
> > examples of English women using their maiden names after marriage, I
> > would appreciate it greatly if they would forward those examples to me
> > for inclusion in an article I'm preparing on Diana Skipwith. Also, I
> > wish to thank MichaelAnne Guido for her invaluable contribution to the
> > history of the Skipwith and Dale families. When Ms. Guido learned of
> > my interest in Diana (Skipwith) Dale, she generously shared her
> > extensive research files with me. Her files clarified several points
> > discussed above. I'm most grateful for her assistance. I also wish to
> > thank Gary Boyd Roberts and Jerome Anderson, both of the New England
> > Historic Genealogical Society in Boston, and my co-author, Dr. David
> > Faris, with whom I consulted at length about the Diana Skipwith
> > problem.
> >
> > Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
> >
> > E-mail: royala...@msn.com
> >
> >
> > In article <20010103114758...@ng-cj1.aol.com>,
> > cmw1...@aol.com (CMW12635) wrote:
> > > Diana Skipwith married Edward DALE, of Lancaster Co., VA. An
> > article I
> > > composed which was published in the January, 2000 issue of TAG
> > pointed out
> > > contemporary records which called into question whether Katherine
> > Dale, Edward
> > > Dale's daughter, could have been a daughter born of his marriage to
> > Diana
> > > Skipwith.
> > >
> > > I'm advised that Mr. Douglas Richardson has researched this topic and
> > I would
> > > certainly be interested in his comments, etc.
> > >
> > > Charles Ward
> > > CMW1...@aol.com
> > >
> >
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com
> > http://www.deja.com/
> Recently, I ran across some rather interesting and significant information: It concerns Margret Skipwith (Baroness Tailboys 1st marriage and 2nd marriage to Peter Askew). It shows the continual use of her first married name by the recorder. Please see below:
>
> Anent thi s Sir John Clifton, let us add a little bit of interesting
> family history,accidentally discovered in the Colyton church Register,
> as to his second marriage . We there read,dated 20 July,1579
> “ John Cleftown,of Barrenton,in the Countye of Som’
> sett,Knyghte,
> was wedded unto the Ryghte Honora ble the Ladye Margerette
> Taylboyes,of Collocombe,wydo.
> ”
> This was the Lady Margaret Tailboys
> ’ “ third venter.
> ” She had been married twice previously,but the cautious recording scribe in the
> Register must have had j ust ideas of precedency,forhe gives her the
> superior title of her first husband.
> She was the daughter of Sir Wm. Skipwith,Knight,and wife,first,
> to George (the second Lord Tailboys) ,who died in 1540,and,secondly,
> she wedded Sir Peter Carew, Knight, of Mohuns -Ottery, who died
> in 1575.
>
>
> Gale

I, too, have tried to research Katherine (Dale) Carter as I am her direct ancestor through my Carter line: grandmother Mollie Bratton (Carter) Brickell. And is why my first name is Carter. It appears to me that Katherine Dale had to have been born in England and was brought the Virginia by her parents Lady Diana (Skipwith) Dale and (Sir) Edward Dale when she was an infant. I have attempted to find marriage records of Edward Dale in Leicestershire County, England but have come up short. I have also attempted to fine birth records for Katherine Dale in the same county with no luck. Given that both parents were of prominent families, it is unlikely records for both marriage and birth would not turn up somewhere as no records exist in Virigina. It would also be worth mentioned that the two were from royalist families with connection to Charles I (beheaded by order of Oliver Cromwell) during the English Civil War. And I have read somewhere that Baronet William Henry Skipwith was forced to sell the Skipwith estate at a ridiculous depreciation to a Cromwell associate in London. Lady Diana's brother (3rd Baraonet of Skipwith), Edward Dale and the wife of his best friend Lady Diana, all left, together, for the Virginia Colony as many prominent royalists were doing during and after the Civil War. Critical to solving this genealogical mystery would be to find marriage and birth records for (Prestwould Manor) Coates, Leicestershire County, England and passenger lists for the ship they sailed on to the Colonies (which would give evidence to an among them on their journey to the New World.

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 4:50:36 AM UTC-5, Claude Brickell wrote:
> I, too, have tried to research Katherine (Dale) Carter as I am her direct ancestor through my Carter line: grandmother Mollie Bratton (Carter) Brickell. And is why my first name is Carter. It appears to me that Katherine Dale had to have been born in England and was brought the Virginia by her parents Lady Diana (Skipwith) Dale and (Sir) Edward Dale when she was an infant. I have attempted to find marriage records of Edward Dale in Leicestershire County, England but have come up short. I have also attempted to fine birth records for Katherine Dale in the same county with no luck. Given that both parents were of prominent families, it is unlikely records for both marriage and birth would not turn up somewhere as no records exist in Virigina. It would also be worth mentioned that the two were from royalist families with connection to Charles I (beheaded by order of Oliver Cromwell) during the English Civil War. And I have read somewhere that Baronet William Henry Skipwith was forced to sell the Skipwith estate at a ridiculous depreciation to a Cromwell associate in London. Lady Diana's brother (3rd Baraonet of Skipwith), Edward Dale and the wife of his best friend Lady Diana, all left, together, for the Virginia Colony as many prominent royalists were doing during and after the Civil War. Critical to solving this genealogical mystery would be to find marriage and birth records for (Prestwould Manor) Coates, Leicestershire County, England and passenger lists for the ship they sailed on to the Colonies (which would give evidence to an among them on their journey to the New World.

Can anyone provide examples of a woman in this time period who gave one of her sons the FULL name of her STEP-mother's father?

Maybe you all have already seen these sites, but if not, there's interesting information about the House of Skipwith that you'll find if you google the historyofparliament website. It traces the line down with a lot of info about descendants who served in Parliament. Once on the site, just search Skipwith and go back to the earliest one listed. Especially interesting to me was Diana's g-grandfather Henry Skipwith (d. 1588), who served Queen Elizabeth I and played a role in the Duke of Norfolk's imprisonment in the Tower during the Mary Queen of Scots intrigue.

Also, you'll see a huge list of Diana's cousins (including Eleanor Roosevelt) if you google the website called "famous kin of diana skipwith." Lee Harvey Oswald was a direct descendant! If you click on any of the names, you'll see the path down to them and how they are related to her. It's a fun site and seems accurate.

~Cindy

On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 3:53:02 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 4:50:36 AM UTC-5, Claude Brickell wrote:
> > I, too, have tried to research Katherine (Dale) Carter as I am her direct ancestor through my Carter line: grandmother Mollie Bratton (Carter) Brickell. And is why my first name is Carter. It appears to me that Katherine Dale had to have been born in England and was brought the Virginia by her parents Lady Diana (Skipwith) Dale and (Sir) Edward Dale when she was an infant. I have attempted to find marriage records of Edward Dale in Leicestershire County, England but have come up short. I have also attempted to fine birth records for Katherine Dale in the same county with no luck. Given that both parents were of prominent families, it is unlikely records for both marriage and birth would not turn up somewhere as no records exist in Virigina. It would also be worth mentioned that the two were from royalist families with connection to Charles I (beheaded by order of Oliver Cromwell) during the English Civil War. And I have read somewhere that Baronet William Henry Skipwith was forced to sell the Skipwith estate at a ridiculous depreciation to a Cromwell associate in London. Lady Diana's brother (3rd Baraonet of Skipwith), Edward Dale and the wife of his best friend Lady Diana, all left, together, for the Virginia Colony as many prominent royalists were doing during and after the Civil War. Critical to solving this genealogical mystery would be to find marriage and birth records for (Prestwould Manor) Coates, Leicestershire County, England and passenger lists for the ship they sailed on to the Colonies (which would give evidence to an among them on their journey to the New World.
> Can anyone provide examples of a woman in this time period who gave one of her sons the FULL name of her STEP-mother's father?
>
> Maybe you all have already seen these sites, but if not, there's interesting information about the House of Skipwith that you'll find if you google the historyofparliament website. It traces the line down with a lot of info about descendants who served in Parliament. Once on the site, just search Skipwith and go back to the earliest one listed. Especially interesting to me was Diana's g-grandfather Henry Skipwith (d. 1588), who served Queen Elizabeth I and played a role in the Duke of Norfolk's imprisonment in the Tower during the Mary Queen of Scots intrigue.
>
> Also, you'll see a huge list of Diana's cousins (including Eleanor Roosevelt) if you google the website called "famous kin of diana skipwith." Lee Harvey Oswald was a direct descendant! If you click on any of the names, you'll see the path down to them and how they are related to her. It's a fun site and seems accurate.
>
> ~Cindy

Instead of telling *us* the google the historyofparliament website, you should be providing the exact source citations. Stop being lazy. A website called "famous kin of diana skipwith" is probably not even worth mentioning. These sort of sites are the special projects of fanatics and usually don't cite useful sources either.

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 10:45:48 AM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 3:53:02 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 4:50:36 AM UTC-5, Claude Brickell wrote:
> > > I, too, have tried to research Katherine (Dale) Carter as I am her direct ancestor through my Carter line: grandmother Mollie Bratton (Carter) Brickell. And is why my first name is Carter. It appears to me that Katherine Dale had to have been born in England and was brought the Virginia by her parents Lady Diana (Skipwith) Dale and (Sir) Edward Dale when she was an infant. I have attempted to find marriage records of Edward Dale in Leicestershire County, England but have come up short. I have also attempted to fine birth records for Katherine Dale in the same county with no luck. Given that both parents were of prominent families, it is unlikely records for both marriage and birth would not turn up somewhere as no records exist in Virigina. It would also be worth mentioned that the two were from royalist families with connection to Charles I (beheaded by order of Oliver Cromwell) during the English Civil War. And I have read somewhere that Baronet William Henry Skipwith was forced to sell the Skipwith estate at a ridiculous depreciation to a Cromwell associate in London. Lady Diana's brother (3rd Baraonet of Skipwith), Edward Dale and the wife of his best friend Lady Diana, all left, together, for the Virginia Colony as many prominent royalists were doing during and after the Civil War. Critical to solving this genealogical mystery would be to find marriage and birth records for (Prestwould Manor) Coates, Leicestershire County, England and passenger lists for the ship they sailed on to the Colonies (which would give evidence to an among them on their journey to the New World.
> > Can anyone provide examples of a woman in this time period who gave one of her sons the FULL name of her STEP-mother's father?
> >
> > Maybe you all have already seen these sites, but if not, there's interesting information about the House of Skipwith that you'll find if you google the historyofparliament website. It traces the line down with a lot of info about descendants who served in Parliament. Once on the site, just search Skipwith and go back to the earliest one listed. Especially interesting to me was Diana's g-grandfather Henry Skipwith (d. 1588), who served Queen Elizabeth I and played a role in the Duke of Norfolk's imprisonment in the Tower during the Mary Queen of Scots intrigue.
> >
> > Also, you'll see a huge list of Diana's cousins (including Eleanor Roosevelt) if you google the website called "famous kin of diana skipwith." Lee Harvey Oswald was a direct descendant! If you click on any of the names, you'll see the path down to them and how they are related to her. It's a fun site and seems accurate.
> >
> > ~Cindy
> Instead of telling *us* the google the historyofparliament website, you should be providing the exact source citations. Stop being lazy. A website called "famous kin of diana skipwith" is probably not even worth mentioning. These sort of sites are the special projects of fanatics and usually don't cite useful sources either.

Will, I'm not being lazy. I'm fairly new to genealogy and was not sure how to do what you ask. As I understood it, the historyofparliament website IS the source. I wasn't sure the link would work so didn't provide it, but I'll give it a try: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/ Just search Skipwith, and you'll see them. The website called "famous kin of Diana Skipwith" does cite sources, though you would likely not consider all of them "useful" sources. As I said, it's a "fun" site.

Anyway, I recently had my line back to Thomas Carter and Katherine Dale confirmed by a professional genealogist, so now I'm even more interested in Katherine's maternity than before. I've been wondering where the name Katherine came from. As far as I can tell, and I could be wrong, you have to go back to Diana's g-grandmother Katherine FitzWilliam to find a candidate for the name. There's a blog at WordPress that has a purported line for Edward Dale showing a Katherine Legh/Leigh as Edward Dale's g-grandmother if that line is accurate. A long way back to a Katherine in either case. Another possibility: If Edward Dale did indeed have a first wife who was Katherine's mother, that wife might well have been named Katherine or have more recent Katherines in her line.

For what it's worth, I read about common naming patterns at this time. Katherine was Edward Dale's eldest daughter, and the 1st daughter was often named after the mother, the mother's mother or the father's mother, so Edward and Diana didn't follow the customary pattern, though that purported line for Edward indicates the name of his mother is unknown. Middle names were exceedingly rate at this time and still unusual in the 18th century. It wasn't until the 19th century that they became common.

~Cindy

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 12:11:24 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 10:45:48 AM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 3:53:02 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 4:50:36 AM UTC-5, Claude Brickell wrote:
> > > > I, too, have tried to research Katherine (Dale) Carter as I am her direct ancestor through my Carter line: grandmother Mollie Bratton (Carter) Brickell. And is why my first name is Carter. It appears to me that Katherine Dale had to have been born in England and was brought the Virginia by her parents Lady Diana (Skipwith) Dale and (Sir) Edward Dale when she was an infant. I have attempted to find marriage records of Edward Dale in Leicestershire County, England but have come up short. I have also attempted to fine birth records for Katherine Dale in the same county with no luck. Given that both parents were of prominent families, it is unlikely records for both marriage and birth would not turn up somewhere as no records exist in Virigina. It would also be worth mentioned that the two were from royalist families with connection to Charles I (beheaded by order of Oliver Cromwell) during the English Civil War. And I have read somewhere that Baronet William Henry Skipwith was forced to sell the Skipwith estate at a ridiculous depreciation to a Cromwell associate in London. Lady Diana's brother (3rd Baraonet of Skipwith), Edward Dale and the wife of his best friend Lady Diana, all left, together, for the Virginia Colony as many prominent royalists were doing during and after the Civil War. Critical to solving this genealogical mystery would be to find marriage and birth records for (Prestwould Manor) Coates, Leicestershire County, England and passenger lists for the ship they sailed on to the Colonies (which would give evidence to an among them on their journey to the New World.
> > > Can anyone provide examples of a woman in this time period who gave one of her sons the FULL name of her STEP-mother's father?
> > >
> > > Maybe you all have already seen these sites, but if not, there's interesting information about the House of Skipwith that you'll find if you google the historyofparliament website. It traces the line down with a lot of info about descendants who served in Parliament. Once on the site, just search Skipwith and go back to the earliest one listed. Especially interesting to me was Diana's g-grandfather Henry Skipwith (d. 1588), who served Queen Elizabeth I and played a role in the Duke of Norfolk's imprisonment in the Tower during the Mary Queen of Scots intrigue.
> > >
> > > Also, you'll see a huge list of Diana's cousins (including Eleanor Roosevelt) if you google the website called "famous kin of diana skipwith." Lee Harvey Oswald was a direct descendant! If you click on any of the names, you'll see the path down to them and how they are related to her. It's a fun site and seems accurate.
> > >
> > > ~Cindy
> > Instead of telling *us* the google the historyofparliament website, you should be providing the exact source citations. Stop being lazy. A website called "famous kin of diana skipwith" is probably not even worth mentioning. These sort of sites are the special projects of fanatics and usually don't cite useful sources either.
> Will, I'm not being lazy. I'm fairly new to genealogy and was not sure how to do what you ask. As I understood it, the historyofparliament website IS the source. I wasn't sure the link would work so didn't provide it, but I'll give it a try: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/ Just search Skipwith, and you'll see them. The website called "famous kin of Diana Skipwith" does cite sources, though you would likely not consider all of them "useful" sources. As I said, it's a "fun" site.
>
> Anyway, I recently had my line back to Thomas Carter and Katherine Dale confirmed by a professional genealogist, so now I'm even more interested in Katherine's maternity than before. I've been wondering where the name Katherine came from. As far as I can tell, and I could be wrong, you have to go back to Diana's g-grandmother Katherine FitzWilliam to find a candidate for the name. There's a blog at WordPress that has a purported line for Edward Dale showing a Katherine Legh/Leigh as Edward Dale's g-grandmother if that line is accurate. A long way back to a Katherine in either case. Another possibility: If Edward Dale did indeed have a first wife who was Katherine's mother, that wife might well have been named Katherine or have more recent Katherines in her line.
>
> For what it's worth, I read about common naming patterns at this time. Katherine was Edward Dale's eldest daughter, and the 1st daughter was often named after the mother, the mother's mother or the father's mother, so Edward and Diana didn't follow the customary pattern, though that purported line for Edward indicates the name of his mother is unknown. Middle names were exceedingly rate at this time and still unusual in the 18th century. It wasn't until the 19th century that they became common.
>
> ~Cindy

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 12:11:24 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 10:45:48 AM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 3:53:02 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 4:50:36 AM UTC-5, Claude Brickell wrote:
> > > > I, too, have tried to research Katherine (Dale) Carter as I am her direct ancestor through my Carter line: grandmother Mollie Bratton (Carter) Brickell. And is why my first name is Carter. It appears to me that Katherine Dale had to have been born in England and was brought the Virginia by her parents Lady Diana (Skipwith) Dale and (Sir) Edward Dale when she was an infant. I have attempted to find marriage records of Edward Dale in Leicestershire County, England but have come up short. I have also attempted to fine birth records for Katherine Dale in the same county with no luck. Given that both parents were of prominent families, it is unlikely records for both marriage and birth would not turn up somewhere as no records exist in Virigina. It would also be worth mentioned that the two were from royalist families with connection to Charles I (beheaded by order of Oliver Cromwell) during the English Civil War. And I have read somewhere that Baronet William Henry Skipwith was forced to sell the Skipwith estate at a ridiculous depreciation to a Cromwell associate in London. Lady Diana's brother (3rd Baraonet of Skipwith), Edward Dale and the wife of his best friend Lady Diana, all left, together, for the Virginia Colony as many prominent royalists were doing during and after the Civil War. Critical to solving this genealogical mystery would be to find marriage and birth records for (Prestwould Manor) Coates, Leicestershire County, England and passenger lists for the ship they sailed on to the Colonies (which would give evidence to an among them on their journey to the New World.
> > > Can anyone provide examples of a woman in this time period who gave one of her sons the FULL name of her STEP-mother's father?
> > >
> > > Maybe you all have already seen these sites, but if not, there's interesting information about the House of Skipwith that you'll find if you google the historyofparliament website. It traces the line down with a lot of info about descendants who served in Parliament. Once on the site, just search Skipwith and go back to the earliest one listed. Especially interesting to me was Diana's g-grandfather Henry Skipwith (d. 1588), who served Queen Elizabeth I and played a role in the Duke of Norfolk's imprisonment in the Tower during the Mary Queen of Scots intrigue.
> > >
> > > Also, you'll see a huge list of Diana's cousins (including Eleanor Roosevelt) if you google the website called "famous kin of diana skipwith." Lee Harvey Oswald was a direct descendant! If you click on any of the names, you'll see the path down to them and how they are related to her. It's a fun site and seems accurate.
> > >
> > > ~Cindy
> > Instead of telling *us* the google the historyofparliament website, you should be providing the exact source citations. Stop being lazy. A website called "famous kin of diana skipwith" is probably not even worth mentioning. These sort of sites are the special projects of fanatics and usually don't cite useful sources either.
> Will, I'm not being lazy. I'm fairly new to genealogy and was not sure how to do what you ask. As I understood it, the historyofparliament website IS the source. I wasn't sure the link would work so didn't provide it, but I'll give it a try: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/ Just search Skipwith, and you'll see them. The website called "famous kin of Diana Skipwith" does cite sources, though you would likely not consider all of them "useful" sources. As I said, it's a "fun" site.
>
> Anyway, I recently had my line back to Thomas Carter and Katherine Dale confirmed by a professional genealogist, so now I'm even more interested in Katherine's maternity than before. I've been wondering where the name Katherine came from. As far as I can tell, and I could be wrong, you have to go back to Diana's g-grandmother Katherine FitzWilliam to find a candidate for the name. There's a blog at WordPress that has a purported line for Edward Dale showing a Katherine Legh/Leigh as Edward Dale's g-grandmother if that line is accurate. A long way back to a Katherine in either case. Another possibility: If Edward Dale did indeed have a first wife who was Katherine's mother, that wife might well have been named Katherine or have more recent Katherines in her line.
>
> For what it's worth, I read about common naming patterns at this time. Katherine was Edward Dale's eldest daughter, and the 1st daughter was often named after the mother, the mother's mother or the father's mother, so Edward and Diana didn't follow the customary pattern, though that purported line for Edward indicates the name of his mother is unknown. Middle names were exceedingly rate at this time and still unusual in the 18th century. It wasn't until the 19th century that they became common.
>
> ~Cindy

Here's the link for the famous kin of Diana Skipwith site: https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-menu.php?name=9760+diana+skipwith

~Cindy

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 9:11:24 AM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 10:45:48 AM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 9, 2022 at 3:53:02 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 4:50:36 AM UTC-5, Claude Brickell wrote:
> > > > I, too, have tried to research Katherine (Dale) Carter as I am her direct ancestor through my Carter line: grandmother Mollie Bratton (Carter) Brickell. And is why my first name is Carter. It appears to me that Katherine Dale had to have been born in England and was brought the Virginia by her parents Lady Diana (Skipwith) Dale and (Sir) Edward Dale when she was an infant. I have attempted to find marriage records of Edward Dale in Leicestershire County, England but have come up short. I have also attempted to fine birth records for Katherine Dale in the same county with no luck. Given that both parents were of prominent families, it is unlikely records for both marriage and birth would not turn up somewhere as no records exist in Virigina. It would also be worth mentioned that the two were from royalist families with connection to Charles I (beheaded by order of Oliver Cromwell) during the English Civil War. And I have read somewhere that Baronet William Henry Skipwith was forced to sell the Skipwith estate at a ridiculous depreciation to a Cromwell associate in London. Lady Diana's brother (3rd Baraonet of Skipwith), Edward Dale and the wife of his best friend Lady Diana, all left, together, for the Virginia Colony as many prominent royalists were doing during and after the Civil War. Critical to solving this genealogical mystery would be to find marriage and birth records for (Prestwould Manor) Coates, Leicestershire County, England and passenger lists for the ship they sailed on to the Colonies (which would give evidence to an among them on their journey to the New World.
> > > Can anyone provide examples of a woman in this time period who gave one of her sons the FULL name of her STEP-mother's father?
> > >
> > > Maybe you all have already seen these sites, but if not, there's interesting information about the House of Skipwith that you'll find if you google the historyofparliament website. It traces the line down with a lot of info about descendants who served in Parliament. Once on the site, just search Skipwith and go back to the earliest one listed. Especially interesting to me was Diana's g-grandfather Henry Skipwith (d. 1588), who served Queen Elizabeth I and played a role in the Duke of Norfolk's imprisonment in the Tower during the Mary Queen of Scots intrigue.
> > >
> > > Also, you'll see a huge list of Diana's cousins (including Eleanor Roosevelt) if you google the website called "famous kin of diana skipwith." Lee Harvey Oswald was a direct descendant! If you click on any of the names, you'll see the path down to them and how they are related to her. It's a fun site and seems accurate.
> > >
> > > ~Cindy
> > Instead of telling *us* the google the historyofparliament website, you should be providing the exact source citations. Stop being lazy. A website called "famous kin of diana skipwith" is probably not even worth mentioning. These sort of sites are the special projects of fanatics and usually don't cite useful sources either.
> Will, I'm not being lazy. I'm fairly new to genealogy and was not sure how to do what you ask. As I understood it, the historyofparliament website IS the source. I wasn't sure the link would work so didn't provide it, but I'll give it a try: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/ Just search Skipwith, and you'll see them. The website called "famous kin of Diana Skipwith" does cite sources, though you would likely not consider all of them "useful" sources. As I said, it's a "fun" site.
>
> Anyway, I recently had my line back to Thomas Carter and Katherine Dale confirmed by a professional genealogist, so now I'm even more interested in Katherine's maternity than before. I've been wondering where the name Katherine came from. As far as I can tell, and I could be wrong, you have to go back to Diana's g-grandmother Katherine FitzWilliam to find a candidate for the name. There's a blog at WordPress that has a purported line for Edward Dale showing a Katherine Legh/Leigh as Edward Dale's g-grandmother if that line is accurate. A long way back to a Katherine in either case. Another possibility: If Edward Dale did indeed have a first wife who was Katherine's mother, that wife might well have been named Katherine or have more recent Katherines in her line.
>
> For what it's worth, I read about common naming patterns at this time. Katherine was Edward Dale's eldest daughter, and the 1st daughter was often named after the mother, the mother's mother or the father's mother, so Edward and Diana didn't follow the customary pattern, though that purported line for Edward indicates the name of his mother is unknown. Middle names were exceedingly rate at this time and still unusual in the 18th century. It wasn't until the 19th century that they became common.
>
> ~Cindy

You yourself can do the search for the specific individuals you think make this connection
and then post those exact URLs instead of asking us to do the search

> > ~Cindy
> Here's the link for the famous kin of Diana Skipwith site: https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-menu.php?name=9760+diana+skipwith
>
> ~Cindy

The Famous Kin website, is the *personal* website of someone who is devoted to this task

https://famouskin.com/about-me.php

It is no more an expert site than the thousands of family trees that exist on hundreds of other sites
I.E. it is not a reliable trustworthy site

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 2:46:12 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > ~Cindy
> > Here's the link for the famous kin of Diana Skipwith site: https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-menu.php?name=9760+diana+skipwith
> >
> > ~Cindy
> The Famous Kin website, is the *personal* website of someone who is devoted to this task
>
> https://famouskin.com/about-me.php
>
> It is no more an expert site than the thousands of family trees that exist on hundreds of other sites
> I.E. it is not a reliable trustworthy site

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 2:46:12 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > ~Cindy
> > Here's the link for the famous kin of Diana Skipwith site: https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-menu.php?name=9760+diana+skipwith
> >
> > ~Cindy
> The Famous Kin website, is the *personal* website of someone who is devoted to this task
>
> https://famouskin.com/about-me.php
>
> It is no more an expert site than the thousands of family trees that exist on hundreds of other sites
> I.E. it is not a reliable trustworthy site

Okay, Will, I take your point. Not everyone who posts here is an expert, but happily I'm learning a lot on this site. Hope you enjoyed the historyofparliament site.

~Cindy

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 11:56:33 AM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 2:46:12 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > ~Cindy
> > > Here's the link for the famous kin of Diana Skipwith site: https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-menu.php?name=9760+diana+skipwith
> > >
> > > ~Cindy
> > The Famous Kin website, is the *personal* website of someone who is devoted to this task
> >
> > https://famouskin.com/about-me.php
> >
> > It is no more an expert site than the thousands of family trees that exist on hundreds of other sites
> > I.E. it is not a reliable trustworthy site
> Okay, Will, I take your point. Not everyone who posts here is an expert, but happily I'm learning a lot on this site. Hope you enjoyed the historyofparliament site.
>
> ~Cindy

Since you don't want to provide exact URL's, I didn't look

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:07:00 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 11:56:33 AM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 2:46:12 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > ~Cindy
> > > > Here's the link for the famous kin of Diana Skipwith site: https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-menu.php?name=9760+diana+skipwith
> > > >
> > > > ~Cindy
> > > The Famous Kin website, is the *personal* website of someone who is devoted to this task
> > >
> > > https://famouskin.com/about-me.php
> > >
> > > It is no more an expert site than the thousands of family trees that exist on hundreds of other sites
> > > I.E. it is not a reliable trustworthy site
> > Okay, Will, I take your point. Not everyone who posts here is an expert, but happily I'm learning a lot on this site. Hope you enjoyed the historyofparliament site.
> >
> > ~Cindy
> Since you don't want to provide exact URL's, I didn't look

It's not that I don't want to provide them. I just thought people would enjoy looking down the list of Skipwiths and clicking on those they wanted to learn more about. There are many to investigate. Here's the first one: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/skipwith-john-1415

~Cindy

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:16:52 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:07:00 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 11:56:33 AM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 2:46:12 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > ~Cindy
> > > > > Here's the link for the famous kin of Diana Skipwith site: https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-menu.php?name=9760+diana+skipwith
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Cindy
> > > > The Famous Kin website, is the *personal* website of someone who is devoted to this task
> > > >
> > > > https://famouskin.com/about-me.php
> > > >
> > > > It is no more an expert site than the thousands of family trees that exist on hundreds of other sites
> > > > I.E. it is not a reliable trustworthy site
> > > Okay, Will, I take your point. Not everyone who posts here is an expert, but happily I'm learning a lot on this site. Hope you enjoyed the historyofparliament site.
> > >
> > > ~Cindy
> > Since you don't want to provide exact URL's, I didn't look
> It's not that I don't want to provide them. I just thought people would enjoy looking down the list of Skipwiths and clicking on those they wanted to learn more about. There are many to investigate. Here's the first one: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/skipwith-john-1415
>
> ~Cindy

Here's another I found interesting: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/skipwith-henry-1588

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 12:20:55 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:16:52 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:

> > It's not that I don't want to provide them. I just thought people would enjoy looking down the list of Skipwiths and clicking on those they wanted to learn more about. There are many to investigate. Here's the first one: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/skipwith-john-1415
> >
> > ~Cindy
> Here's another I found interesting: https://www.historyofparliamentonline..org/volume/1558-1603/member/skipwith-henry-1588

Do you know the expression teaching your grandmother to suck eggs?
The members of this group are well acquainted with the HOP articles
I thought you were trying to make a specific point about something you had found

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:53:09 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 12:20:55 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:16:52 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
>
> > > It's not that I don't want to provide them. I just thought people would enjoy looking down the list of Skipwiths and clicking on those they wanted to learn more about. There are many to investigate. Here's the first one: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/skipwith-john-1415
> > >
> > > ~Cindy
> > Here's another I found interesting: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/skipwith-henry-1588
> Do you know the expression teaching your grandmother to suck eggs?
> The members of this group are well acquainted with the HOP articles
> I thought you were trying to make a specific point about something you had found

Back to my original question: I'm wondering if anyone can provide an example of a woman in this time period who gave a son the FULL name of her STEP-mother's father?

~Cindy

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 2:38:01 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:53:09 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 12:20:55 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:16:52 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> >
> > > > It's not that I don't want to provide them. I just thought people would enjoy looking down the list of Skipwiths and clicking on those they wanted to learn more about. There are many to investigate. Here's the first one: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/skipwith-john-1415
> > > >
> > > > ~Cindy
> > > Here's another I found interesting: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/skipwith-henry-1588
> > Do you know the expression teaching your grandmother to suck eggs?
> > The members of this group are well acquainted with the HOP articles
> > I thought you were trying to make a specific point about something you had found
> Back to my original question: I'm wondering if anyone can provide an example of a woman in this time period who gave a son the FULL name of her STEP-mother's father?
>
> ~Cindy

Cart...Horse.
I think you need to find a *primary* document, where he signs his name in this exact fashion.
To prove that this was indeed his name in the first place and not a modern invention

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 6:30:18 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 2:38:01 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:53:09 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 12:20:55 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:16:52 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> > >
> > > > > It's not that I don't want to provide them. I just thought people would enjoy looking down the list of Skipwiths and clicking on those they wanted to learn more about. There are many to investigate. Here's the first one: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/skipwith-john-1415
> > > > >
> > > > > ~Cindy
> > > > Here's another I found interesting: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/skipwith-henry-1588
> > > Do you know the expression teaching your grandmother to suck eggs?
> > > The members of this group are well acquainted with the HOP articles
> > > I thought you were trying to make a specific point about something you had found
> > Back to my original question: I'm wondering if anyone can provide an example of a woman in this time period who gave a son the FULL name of her STEP-mother's father?
> >
> > ~Cindy
> Cart...Horse.
> I think you need to find a *primary* document, where he signs his name in this exact fashion.
> To prove that this was indeed his name in the first place and not a modern invention

Good point, Will, though I have no idea how I would find such a primary document. The professional genealogist with whom I worked sent me some pages from a book called "Known By the Company They Keep: An Analysis of the Thomas Carter Prayer Book Entries" by Robert D. Lumsden. It contains a photocopy of a loose page in the Thomas Carter Prayer Book (1662) listing in his handwriting the birth time and date, christening date, and names of the godparents "standing" for his children. The Prayer Book is now in the Virginia Historical Society in Richmond. It clearly shows "Henry Skipwith" entered as the 4th son of Thomas and Katherine Carter. So if the middle name Skipwith is an invention, it was done by Thomas Carter, or by whoever made that entry, though the handwriting looks consistent throughout the list. In Thomas Carter's will, however, written August 16, 1700, he refers to "Henry Carter" without the middle name. I assume that anyone seeing that prayer book at the time, including Katherine Dale Carter, would have known if the name "Henry Skipwith" was an invention, something that would have prevented Thomas Carter from inventing it?

~Cindy

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 7:13:36 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 6:30:18 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 2:38:01 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:53:09 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 12:20:55 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:16:52 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > It's not that I don't want to provide them. I just thought people would enjoy looking down the list of Skipwiths and clicking on those they wanted to learn more about. There are many to investigate. Here's the first one: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/skipwith-john-1415
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~Cindy
> > > > > Here's another I found interesting: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/skipwith-henry-1588
> > > > Do you know the expression teaching your grandmother to suck eggs?
> > > > The members of this group are well acquainted with the HOP articles
> > > > I thought you were trying to make a specific point about something you had found
> > > Back to my original question: I'm wondering if anyone can provide an example of a woman in this time period who gave a son the FULL name of her STEP-mother's father?
> > >
> > > ~Cindy
> > Cart...Horse.
> > I think you need to find a *primary* document, where he signs his name in this exact fashion.
> > To prove that this was indeed his name in the first place and not a modern invention
> Good point, Will, though I have no idea how I would find such a primary document. The professional genealogist with whom I worked sent me some pages from a book called "Known By the Company They Keep: An Analysis of the Thomas Carter Prayer Book Entries" by Robert D. Lumsden. It contains a photocopy of a loose page in the Thomas Carter Prayer Book (1662) listing in his handwriting the birth time and date, christening date, and names of the godparents "standing" for his children. The Prayer Book is now in the Virginia Historical Society in Richmond. It clearly shows "Henry Skipwith" entered as the 4th son of Thomas and Katherine Carter. So if the middle name Skipwith is an invention, it was done by Thomas Carter, or by whoever made that entry, though the handwriting looks consistent throughout the list. In Thomas Carter's will, however, written August 16, 1700, he refers to "Henry Carter" without the middle name. I assume that anyone seeing that prayer book at the time, including Katherine Dale Carter, would have known if the name "Henry Skipwith" was an invention, something that would have prevented Thomas Carter from inventing it?
>
> ~Cindy

Please excuse me if everyone in this group has already seen this, as seems likely since it is quite old. I'm posting it only because I found it an interesting follow up to my previous post and to Will's suggestion about finding a primary source showing that Henry signed his name as Henry Skipwith Carter. Charles Ward does seem to be implying that the name Henry "Skipwith" Carter may have been an invention. https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/dale/2164/ I guess in the future I should try and figure things out on my own unless I have something to post that others probably haven't seen or unless I have something original to contribute. But I'll continue to enjoy this site.

~Cindy

On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 12:54:05 AM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 7:13:36 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 6:30:18 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 2:38:01 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:53:09 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 12:20:55 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:16:52 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > It's not that I don't want to provide them. I just thought people would enjoy looking down the list of Skipwiths and clicking on those they wanted to learn more about. There are many to investigate. Here's the first one: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/skipwith-john-1415
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ~Cindy
> > > > > > Here's another I found interesting: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/skipwith-henry-1588
> > > > > Do you know the expression teaching your grandmother to suck eggs?
> > > > > The members of this group are well acquainted with the HOP articles
> > > > > I thought you were trying to make a specific point about something you had found
> > > > Back to my original question: I'm wondering if anyone can provide an example of a woman in this time period who gave a son the FULL name of her STEP-mother's father?
> > > >
> > > > ~Cindy
> > > Cart...Horse.
> > > I think you need to find a *primary* document, where he signs his name in this exact fashion.
> > > To prove that this was indeed his name in the first place and not a modern invention
> > Good point, Will, though I have no idea how I would find such a primary document. The professional genealogist with whom I worked sent me some pages from a book called "Known By the Company They Keep: An Analysis of the Thomas Carter Prayer Book Entries" by Robert D. Lumsden. It contains a photocopy of a loose page in the Thomas Carter Prayer Book (1662) listing in his handwriting the birth time and date, christening date, and names of the godparents "standing" for his children. The Prayer Book is now in the Virginia Historical Society in Richmond. It clearly shows "Henry Skipwith" entered as the 4th son of Thomas and Katherine Carter. So if the middle name Skipwith is an invention, it was done by Thomas Carter, or by whoever made that entry, though the handwriting looks consistent throughout the list. In Thomas Carter's will, however, written August 16, 1700, he refers to "Henry Carter" without the middle name. I assume that anyone seeing that prayer book at the time, including Katherine Dale Carter, would have known if the name "Henry Skipwith" was an invention, something that would have prevented Thomas Carter from inventing it?
> >
> > ~Cindy
> Please excuse me if everyone in this group has already seen this, as seems likely since it is quite old. I'm posting it only because I found it an interesting follow up to my previous post and to Will's suggestion about finding a primary source showing that Henry signed his name as Henry Skipwith Carter. Charles Ward does seem to be implying that the name Henry "Skipwith" Carter may have been an invention. https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/dale/2164/ I guess in the future I should try and figure things out on my own unless I have something to post that others probably haven't seen or unless I have something original to contribute. But I'll continue to enjoy this site.
>
> ~Cindy

One more thought: I suppose it could be argued that records during his lifetime do not show the name Henry "Skipwith" Carter precisely because middle names were so rare at that time. People could have simply left out or even not known about the Skipwith part of his name. Even in his own will Henry referred to himself simply as "Henry Carter." Perhaps he thought it was pretentious to use a double name at that time in America since nobody else had one. Who knows. As for Diana being the mother of Katherine Dale, the professional genealogist said in her report that there were good arguments on both sides. I wonder why it is so difficult for human beings to live with uncertainty. Well, I guess it leads to research, which is a good thing. I hope that marriage and birth records may someday be discovered to clarify things.

~Cindy

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 4:13:36 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 6:30:18 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 2:38:01 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:53:09 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 12:20:55 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 3:16:52 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > It's not that I don't want to provide them. I just thought people would enjoy looking down the list of Skipwiths and clicking on those they wanted to learn more about. There are many to investigate. Here's the first one: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/skipwith-john-1415
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~Cindy
> > > > > Here's another I found interesting: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/skipwith-henry-1588
> > > > Do you know the expression teaching your grandmother to suck eggs?
> > > > The members of this group are well acquainted with the HOP articles
> > > > I thought you were trying to make a specific point about something you had found
> > > Back to my original question: I'm wondering if anyone can provide an example of a woman in this time period who gave a son the FULL name of her STEP-mother's father?
> > >
> > > ~Cindy
> > Cart...Horse.
> > I think you need to find a *primary* document, where he signs his name in this exact fashion.
> > To prove that this was indeed his name in the first place and not a modern invention
> Good point, Will, though I have no idea how I would find such a primary document. The professional genealogist with whom I worked sent me some pages from a book called "Known By the Company They Keep: An Analysis of the Thomas Carter Prayer Book Entries" by Robert D. Lumsden. It contains a photocopy of a loose page in the Thomas Carter Prayer Book (1662) listing in his handwriting the birth time and date, christening date, and names of the godparents "standing" for his children. The Prayer Book is now in the Virginia Historical Society in Richmond. It clearly shows "Henry Skipwith" entered as the 4th son of Thomas and Katherine Carter. So if the middle name Skipwith is an invention, it was done by Thomas Carter, or by whoever made that entry, though the handwriting looks consistent throughout the list. In Thomas Carter's will, however, written August 16, 1700, he refers to "Henry Carter" without the middle name. I assume that anyone seeing that prayer book at the time, including Katherine Dale Carter, would have known if the name "Henry Skipwith" was an invention, something that would have prevented Thomas Carter from inventing it?
>
> ~Cindy

An extract from this prayer book is online

http://files.usgwarchives.net/va/lancaster/bibles/carter1.txt

On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 11:46:12 AM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > ~Cindy
> > Here's the link for the famous kin of Diana Skipwith site: https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-menu.php?name=9760+diana+skipwith
> >
> > ~Cindy
> The Famous Kin website, is the *personal* website of someone who is devoted to this task
>
> https://famouskin.com/about-me.php
>
> It is no more an expert site than the thousands of family trees that exist on hundreds of other sites
> I.E. it is not a reliable trustworthy site

Just as reliable as this website:
http://www.countyhistorian.com/knol/4hmquk6fx4gu-1-will-johnson.html

The difference is that Rich Hall is an author, whose edited and published material
can be found in libraries across the country. The same cannot be said for Will Johnson.

Leslie

On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 10:42:47 AM UTC-7, Leslie Mahler wrote:
> On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 11:46:12 AM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > ~Cindy
> > > Here's the link for the famous kin of Diana Skipwith site: https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-menu.php?name=9760+diana+skipwith
> > >
> > > ~Cindy
> > The Famous Kin website, is the *personal* website of someone who is devoted to this task
> >
> > https://famouskin.com/about-me.php
> >
> > It is no more an expert site than the thousands of family trees that exist on hundreds of other sites
> > I.E. it is not a reliable trustworthy site
> Just as reliable as this website:
> http://www.countyhistorian.com/knol/4hmquk6fx4gu-1-will-johnson.html
>
> The difference is that Rich Hall is an author, whose edited and published material
> can be found in libraries across the country. The same cannot be said for Will Johnson.
>
> Leslie

I have never suggested that anyone should use my website as an authoritative guide
This was the point I was making.
NO website, by a single author, can be considered a reliable source.
None. Not one.

Unless it's their own biography. And then maybe not either

On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 1:59:44 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 10:42:47 AM UTC-7, Leslie Mahler wrote:
> > On Monday, July 11, 2022 at 11:46:12 AM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > ~Cindy
> > > > Here's the link for the famous kin of Diana Skipwith site: https://famouskin.com/famous-kin-menu.php?name=9760+diana+skipwith
> > > >
> > > > ~Cindy
> > > The Famous Kin website, is the *personal* website of someone who is devoted to this task
> > >
> > > https://famouskin.com/about-me.php
> > >
> > > It is no more an expert site than the thousands of family trees that exist on hundreds of other sites
> > > I.E. it is not a reliable trustworthy site
> > Just as reliable as this website:
> > http://www.countyhistorian.com/knol/4hmquk6fx4gu-1-will-johnson.html
> >
> > The difference is that Rich Hall is an author, whose edited and published material
> > can be found in libraries across the country. The same cannot be said for Will Johnson.
> >
> > Leslie
> I have never suggested that anyone should use my website as an authoritative guide
> This was the point I was making.
> NO website, by a single author, can be considered a reliable source.
> None. Not one.
>
> Unless it's their own biography. And then maybe not either

Thanks, Will, for sending the Carter Prayer Book extract. However, isn't it a bit unfair to call a site unreliable without even examining some of the info it contains? In my opinion, a site is unreliable if it contains errors. It should also not be the only site consulted but one of many, many, so that comparisons can be made and discrepancies spotted. So far, I'm not finding mistakes on Rich Hall's famous cousins site. I'm finding it very interesting. The lines I've looked at concur with those on other sites, though I'm aware that mistakes can be copied from one site to another. That's why I like checking back here to look at posts about some of the ancestors to see if any new info has been found or corrections made. This famous cousins site would definitely never be the only site I consulted--and some experts here may indeed spot some errors--but so far, so good!

My brother said he wasn't fazed in the least by the Charles Ward piece I sent last night. He noted that he never signs documents using his middle name. In fact, very few people, primarily family members, even know his middle name. The same goes for me. The same may go for Henry Skipwith Carter. My brother's position is that we descend from Diana Skipwith unless primary sources are discovered that prove otherwise. I wonder if such sources will ever be found; given the turmoil of the Cromwell years, they may no longer exist.
~Cindy

On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 12:56:50 PM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 12, 2022 at 1:59:44 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:

> > I have never suggested that anyone should use my website as an authoritative guide
> > This was the point I was making.
> > NO website, by a single author, can be considered a reliable source.
> > None. Not one.
> >
> > Unless it's their own biography. And then maybe not either
> Thanks, Will, for sending the Carter Prayer Book extract. However, isn't it a bit unfair to call a site unreliable without even examining some of the info it contains? In my opinion, a site is unreliable if it contains errors. It should also not be the only site consulted but one of many, many, so that comparisons can be made and discrepancies spotted. So

Saying a website is unreliable is not tantamount to saying "this person is full of shit"
It is tantamount to saying "Vitamin D *may* help with acne but there have been on peer-reviewed studies to show that". I.E. it's a unreliable claim.

When a single editor/author has full control over what is stated, that is an unreliable publication. It is *solely* through discussion, criticism, harassment, argument.... that a claim can come to a usable reliable state.

That is true of all claims, scientific, genealogical, other.