Hello,

Following on previous postings related to the Caryngtons, I would like to know if anybody can throw some more light on Matilda de Caryngton, also known as Maud.

There is at least one document in Kew where she is mentioned as a widower of sir William de Caryngton, in 1438:

Reference: SC 8/40/1959

Description: Petitioners: Matilda Caryngton (Carrington), widow of William de Carrington, knight. Name(s): Caryngton (Carrington), Matilda Addressees: King and council.

Nature of request: Caryngton states that her husband bought from the justice and chamberlain of Chester the wardship and marriage of Thomas Weaver together with the lands and tenements as appear in his letters patent, and William and Matilda paid all the money at the Chester Exchequer. Now the ministers of Chester are demanding restitution of the inheritance from Caryngton by a scire facias. She requests that the king grant his letters under the privy seal to the justice of Chester or his lieutenant to cease the suit against her, and another letter to the chamberlain to make a new patent to her, the executor of her husband's testament, to have the inheritance of Weaver until he is of full age, and a pardon of the issues since the death of his mother.

Nature of endorsement: [None].

Places mentioned: Chester, [Cheshire].

People mentioned: William de Caryngton, (Carrington), knight, late husband of the petitioner;

Thomas Wever (Weaver), son and heir of Richard de Weaver;

[John of Gaunt], Duke of Lancaster;

Thomas de Arderne (Ardern).

Note: The wardship was purchased on 19 August 1378 as the petition makes clear.

However , no record of this petition seems to survive, though some record of it may appear amongst the Palatinate of Chester Archive.

Date: [c. 1378] Held by: The National Archives, Kew Former reference in its original department: Parliamentary Petition 1722

It is not clear to me, without reading the document who is Thomas de Arderne and how he relates to the case.

In a website, weblog, which copies from various sources, there is also a mention of Maud, as the wife of sir William, this time in connection with Hugh de Arderne.

http://mymedievalgenealogy.blogspot.com/2013/09/geoffrey-boone-de-bohun-and-petroline.html

I can't tell exactly which document mentions her and her husband, and if the document has survived somewhere or if there is a transcription
The last deed of Peter de Arderne that has occurred, is a grant of the manor of Alvandelegh in trust to John de Scolhall, 2 Jan., 42 Edward III. ix. Hugh Arderne of Harden and Alvanley, erroneously called son of Sir John de Arderne in the Visitation of 1566, succeeded as son of Piers and Cecilia, and is expressly so styled in a precept to Maud, wife of Sir William Carrington, respecting the manor of Bothomes,3 somewhat later than 47 Edward III, in which year Sir William was living.

Leycester's List of Justiciaries of Chester. Hist. Chesh. i, p. 57. 3 The plea, etc., from the Record preserved in Harl. MSS. 2074, is in Hist. Chesh.. ii, p. 39. House of Warren ii, 226

Further, in the rather notorious book by Dr. Copinger about the Caryington Smith, "History and records of the Smith-Carington family, from the conquest to the present time," which appears to mix information from verifiable sources as well as other information that is likely to be ficticious, she appears in a few pages, as Matilda de Arderne

The author makes her a daughter of one Peter de Arderne, second son of sir John de Arderne on page 42 and 43.

The author proceeds to provide some information about her, but makes her the second wife of sir William, and claims his first wife was someone else who most likely did not exist or did not marry him, according to Round.

Checking in Round's critical article, which can be read at family search library, among other places

https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/116396/?offset=0#page=165

"Peerage and pedigree : studies in peerage law and family history, vol. 2"

Round mentions some documents in which Maud and William appear.
and particular on page 162, Round calls her Maud de Arderne.

"For this Sir William was a real man, and he had a real wife, Maud de Arderne, and Dr. Copinger has no difficulty in finding plenty of record evidence of both of them, the first document mentioning the wife being apparently of 1357."

Question: Is there proof that her father was an Arderne, and if so, from which branch?

Thanks,

J. Sardina

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 8:17:27 AM UTC-8, J. Sardina wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Following on previous postings related to the Caryngtons, I would like to know if anybody can throw some more light on Matilda de Caryngton, also known as Maud.
>
> There is at least one document in Kew where she is mentioned as a widower of sir William de Caryngton, in 1438:
>
> Reference: SC 8/40/1959
>
> Description: Petitioners: Matilda Caryngton (Carrington), widow of William de Carrington, knight. Name(s): Caryngton (Carrington), Matilda Addressees: King and council.
>
> Nature of request: Caryngton states that her husband bought from the justice and chamberlain of Chester the wardship and marriage of Thomas Weaver together with the lands and tenements as appear in his letters patent, and William and Matilda paid all the money at the Chester Exchequer. Now the ministers of Chester are demanding restitution of the inheritance from Caryngton by a scire facias. She requests that the king grant his letters under the privy seal to the justice of Chester or his lieutenant to cease the suit against her, and another letter to the chamberlain to make a new patent to her, the executor of her husband's testament, to have the inheritance of Weaver until he is of full age, and a pardon of the issues since the death of his mother.
>
> Nature of endorsement: [None].
>
> Places mentioned: Chester, [Cheshire].
>
> People mentioned: William de Caryngton, (Carrington), knight, late husband of the petitioner;
>
> Thomas Wever (Weaver), son and heir of Richard de Weaver;
>
> [John of Gaunt], Duke of Lancaster;
>
> Thomas de Arderne (Ardern).
>
> Note: The wardship was purchased on 19 August 1378 as the petition makes clear.
>
> However , no record of this petition seems to survive, though some record of it may appear amongst the Palatinate of Chester Archive.
>
> Date: [c. 1378] Held by: The National Archives, Kew Former reference in its original department: Parliamentary Petition 1722
>
> It is not clear to me, without reading the document who is Thomas de Arderne and how he relates to the case.
>
> In a website, weblog, which copies from various sources, there is also a mention of Maud, as the wife of sir William, this time in connection with Hugh de Arderne.
>
> http://mymedievalgenealogy.blogspot.com/2013/09/geoffrey-boone-de-bohun-and-petroline.html
>
> I can't tell exactly which document mentions her and her husband, and if the document has survived somewhere or if there is a transcription
> The last deed of Peter de Arderne that has occurred, is a grant of the manor of Alvandelegh in trust to John de Scolhall, 2 Jan., 42 Edward III. ix. Hugh Arderne of Harden and Alvanley, erroneously called son of Sir John de Arderne in the Visitation of 1566, succeeded as son of Piers and Cecilia, and is expressly so styled in a precept to Maud, wife of Sir William Carrington, respecting the manor of Bothomes,3 somewhat later than 47 Edward III, in which year Sir William was living.
>
> Leycester's List of Justiciaries of Chester. Hist. Chesh. i, p. 57. 3 The plea, etc., from the Record preserved in Harl. MSS. 2074, is in Hist. Chesh. ii, p. 39. House of Warren ii, 226
>
> Further, in the rather notorious book by Dr. Copinger about the Caryington Smith, "History and records of the Smith-Carington family, from the conquest to the present time," which appears to mix information from verifiable sources as well as other information that is likely to be ficticious, she appears in a few pages, as Matilda de Arderne
>
> The author makes her a daughter of one Peter de Arderne, second son of sir John de Arderne on page 42 and 43.
>
> The author proceeds to provide some information about her, but makes her the second wife of sir William, and claims his first wife was someone else who most likely did not exist or did not marry him, according to Round.
>
> Checking in Round's critical article, which can be read at family search library, among other places
>
> https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/116396/?offset=0#page=165
>
> "Peerage and pedigree : studies in peerage law and family history, vol. 2"
>
> Round mentions some documents in which Maud and William appear.
> and particular on page 162, Round calls her Maud de Arderne.
>
> "For this Sir William was a real man, and he had a real wife, Maud de Arderne, and Dr. Copinger has no difficulty in finding plenty of record evidence of both of them, the first document mentioning the wife being apparently of 1357."
>
> Question: Is there proof that her father was an Arderne, and if so, from which branch?
>
> Thanks,
>
> J. Sardina

That Matilda widow of Sir William Carrington is presumed to be a daughter of Peter de Arderne and his wife Cicely Bradbury is suggested rather strongly by her possession of, or a part of the Manor of Bothomes

https://books.google.com/books?id=7kEjAQAAMAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=bothomes%20manor&pg=PA39#v=onepage&q=bothomes%20manor&f=false

This Manor had been settled on the issue of Peter and Cicely and so presumably was held by Matilda because of that fact and here being required to give it up to her presumed brother

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 12:42:21 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 8:17:27 AM UTC-8, J. Sardina wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Following on previous postings related to the Caryngtons, I would like to know if anybody can throw some more light on Matilda de Caryngton, also known as Maud.
> >
> > There is at least one document in Kew where she is mentioned as a widower of sir William de Caryngton, in 1438:
> >
> > Reference: SC 8/40/1959
> >
> > Description: Petitioners: Matilda Caryngton (Carrington), widow of William de Carrington, knight. Name(s): Caryngton (Carrington), Matilda Addressees: King and council.
> >
> > Nature of request: Caryngton states that her husband bought from the justice and chamberlain of Chester the wardship and marriage of Thomas Weaver together with the lands and tenements as appear in his letters patent, and William and Matilda paid all the money at the Chester Exchequer. Now the ministers of Chester are demanding restitution of the inheritance from Caryngton by a scire facias. She requests that the king grant his letters under the privy seal to the justice of Chester or his lieutenant to cease the suit against her, and another letter to the chamberlain to make a new patent to her, the executor of her husband's testament, to have the inheritance of Weaver until he is of full age, and a pardon of the issues since the death of his mother.
> >
> > Nature of endorsement: [None].
> >
> > Places mentioned: Chester, [Cheshire].
> >
> > People mentioned: William de Caryngton, (Carrington), knight, late husband of the petitioner;
> >
> > Thomas Wever (Weaver), son and heir of Richard de Weaver;
> >
> > [John of Gaunt], Duke of Lancaster;
> >
> > Thomas de Arderne (Ardern).
> >
> > Note: The wardship was purchased on 19 August 1378 as the petition makes clear.
> >
> > However , no record of this petition seems to survive, though some record of it may appear amongst the Palatinate of Chester Archive.
> >
> > Date: [c. 1378] Held by: The National Archives, Kew Former reference in its original department: Parliamentary Petition 1722
> >
> > It is not clear to me, without reading the document who is Thomas de Arderne and how he relates to the case.
> >
> > In a website, weblog, which copies from various sources, there is also a mention of Maud, as the wife of sir William, this time in connection with Hugh de Arderne.
> >
> > http://mymedievalgenealogy.blogspot.com/2013/09/geoffrey-boone-de-bohun-and-petroline.html
> >
> > I can't tell exactly which document mentions her and her husband, and if the document has survived somewhere or if there is a transcription
> > The last deed of Peter de Arderne that has occurred, is a grant of the manor of Alvandelegh in trust to John de Scolhall, 2 Jan., 42 Edward III. ix. Hugh Arderne of Harden and Alvanley, erroneously called son of Sir John de Arderne in the Visitation of 1566, succeeded as son of Piers and Cecilia, and is expressly so styled in a precept to Maud, wife of Sir William Carrington, respecting the manor of Bothomes,3 somewhat later than 47 Edward III, in which year Sir William was living.
> >
> > Leycester's List of Justiciaries of Chester. Hist. Chesh. i, p. 57. 3 The plea, etc., from the Record preserved in Harl. MSS. 2074, is in Hist. Chesh. ii, p. 39. House of Warren ii, 226
> >
> > Further, in the rather notorious book by Dr. Copinger about the Caryington Smith, "History and records of the Smith-Carington family, from the conquest to the present time," which appears to mix information from verifiable sources as well as other information that is likely to be ficticious, she appears in a few pages, as Matilda de Arderne
> >
> > The author makes her a daughter of one Peter de Arderne, second son of sir John de Arderne on page 42 and 43.
> >
> > The author proceeds to provide some information about her, but makes her the second wife of sir William, and claims his first wife was someone else who most likely did not exist or did not marry him, according to Round.
> >
> > Checking in Round's critical article, which can be read at family search library, among other places
> >
> > https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/116396/?offset=0#page=165
> >
> > "Peerage and pedigree : studies in peerage law and family history, vol. 2"
> >
> > Round mentions some documents in which Maud and William appear.
> > and particular on page 162, Round calls her Maud de Arderne.
> >
> > "For this Sir William was a real man, and he had a real wife, Maud de Arderne, and Dr. Copinger has no difficulty in finding plenty of record evidence of both of them, the first document mentioning the wife being apparently of 1357."
> >
> > Question: Is there proof that her father was an Arderne, and if so, from which branch?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > J. Sardina
> That Matilda widow of Sir William Carrington is presumed to be a daughter of Peter de Arderne and his wife Cicely Bradbury is suggested rather strongly by her possession of, or a part of the Manor of Bothomes
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=7kEjAQAAMAAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&dq=bothomes%20manor&pg=PA39#v=onepage&q=bothomes%20manor&f=false
>
> This Manor had been settled on the issue of Peter and Cicely and so presumably was held by Matilda because of that fact and here being required to give it up to her presumed brother

Thanks for the information.

From what is available online at secondary sources, William and Matilda had at least part of the manor and it seems they had been enfeoffed by a previous Arderne.

J. Sardina