On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 1:01:05 PM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 10:02:22 AM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> > On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 3:00:06 PM UTC-5, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 7:49:29 PM UTC, JBrand wrote:
> > > > Kent Visitation shows MARTHA Rich of Lees was the second wife of Thomas Browne of Horton Kirkby, with children Richard Browne, Robert Browne, Mary Browne, Joanna Browne, and Elizabeth Browne.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Visitation_of_Kent/o79MAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=browne%20martha
> > > >
> > > > I suppose that could be a sister of Margaret and Anne.
> > > The following gives a slightly different account, don't know which is correct:
> > >
> > > William Browne, the eldest son of John, the Master of the Mint, was seated at Horton Kirby, and by his wife, Mary, daughter of Edward Martin, of Franks, had a son, Thomas, who succeeded him, and died 1619. He was twice married, first to Margaret, daughter of Rich Riche, by whom he had five sons and six daughters-John (who was seven years old at his father's death), Thomas, William, Humphrey, and Bernard; Mary (ux Edward Bathurst), Margery, Ann, Susannah, Margaret, and Elizabeth. And by his second wife, Mary, daughter of Bernard Webster, of Woodford, he had two sons, Richard and Robert. [Adrian: so Thomas had 13 children and two wives in under 8 years?]
> > >
> > > Probably descendants of this family are still extant, but trace of them is lost through the sanctifying influence of the Civil War. No doubt they fought, as became gentlemen, for their King; but unhappily the result was disastrous. John, the eldest son, sold his estates (ruined doubtless by the Civil War), whereby all trace of his family is lost, and they are now merged hopelessly in the noble army of Brownes with nothing, probably, to distinguish them from their namesakes.
> > > (The Brownes of Bechworth Castle, by John Pym Yeatman 1903 Page 75)
> > Possibly this was another illegitimate daughter of Richard Rich the 1st Lord. He had at least four known illegits., including Richard Rich the steward of Leez, and three daughters.
> >
> > Although internal consistency is a massive problem with these Brownes of Horton Kirby. The account above gives Margaret Rich as the first wife, with an impossible age attached to the heir she produced, while the 1619 Kent Visitation says Margaret Rich was the second wife. The 1635 London Visitation does not mention her at all.
> >
> > Kent Vis. and London Vis. differ from the above in calling the other wife Mary's father a Whetstone, not a Webster.
> A link to G.D. Scull's Browne-Rich typescript held at the NEHGS:
>
> http://circanceast.beaufortccc.edu/Brown/local%20personalities/sir%20william%20brown/Browne-Rich%20(BL143).pdf
>
> A comment on the birthdate usually assigned Percy Browne (ca. 1604) is necessary:
>
> In May 1621 we find the following in the House of Lords' journal:
>
> "Brown's Naturalization.
>
> Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the Naturalizing of Percie Browne and Marie Browne, the Children of Sir William Browne, Knight, Lieutenant Governor of His Majesty's Cautionary Town of Flushing; and, being put to the Question, it was Assented unto."
>
> https://www.british-history.ac.uk/lords-jrnl/vol3/pp129-131
>
> Sir William Browne had some other of his children (William, Anne, and Barbara) naturalized in June 1604:
>
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951001352594p&view=1up&seq=162&skin=2021&q1=%22william%20anne%20and%20barbara%22
>
> I think it was assumed Percy must have been born after this first set of sibling naturalizations, but now, seeing that Anne (Rich) Browne, Percy's wife had to be at least six years older (based on the death date of Richard Rich, her father), this should be re-thought. It might not necessarily follow that all the older siblings were naturalized in 1604.

[ca. 29 June 1604]

WILLM. BROWNE ] Born at Flushing. Children of Sr Willm. Browne Knight, Lieutenant Governor of yor Ma[jes]ties Cautionarie towne
ANNE BROWNE ] of Flushing, and Dame Marie Savage born at Ghant in Flanders his wife.
BARBARA BROWNE ]

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t5x670q8j&view=1up&seq=52&skin=2021&q1=%22barbara%20browne%22

[1622] July 10. PERCY BROWNE and
MARY BROWNE, son and daughter of Sir William Browne, Knt., deceased, lately Lieutenant to his Majesty of the cautionary
town of Vliessinghen, and both born in said town.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t5x670q8j&view=1up&seq=79&skin=2021&q1=Vliessinghen

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 3:01:28 PM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 1:01:05 PM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 10:02:22 AM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> > > On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 3:00:06 PM UTC-5, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 7:49:29 PM UTC, JBrand wrote:
> > > > > Kent Visitation shows MARTHA Rich of Lees was the second wife of Thomas Browne of Horton Kirkby, with children Richard Browne, Robert Browne, Mary Browne, Joanna Browne, and Elizabeth Browne.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Visitation_of_Kent/o79MAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=browne%20martha
> > > > >
> > > > > I suppose that could be a sister of Margaret and Anne.
> > > > The following gives a slightly different account, don't know which is correct:
> > > >
> > > > William Browne, the eldest son of John, the Master of the Mint, was seated at Horton Kirby, and by his wife, Mary, daughter of Edward Martin, of Franks, had a son, Thomas, who succeeded him, and died 1619. He was twice married, first to Margaret, daughter of Rich Riche, by whom he had five sons and six daughters-John (who was seven years old at his father's death), Thomas, William, Humphrey, and Bernard; Mary (ux Edward Bathurst), Margery, Ann, Susannah, Margaret, and Elizabeth. And by his second wife, Mary, daughter of Bernard Webster, of Woodford, he had two sons, Richard and Robert. [Adrian: so Thomas had 13 children and two wives in under 8 years?]
> > > >
> > > > Probably descendants of this family are still extant, but trace of them is lost through the sanctifying influence of the Civil War. No doubt they fought, as became gentlemen, for their King; but unhappily the result was disastrous. John, the eldest son, sold his estates (ruined doubtless by the Civil War), whereby all trace of his family is lost, and they are now merged hopelessly in the noble army of Brownes with nothing, probably, to distinguish them from their namesakes.
> > > > (The Brownes of Bechworth Castle, by John Pym Yeatman 1903 Page 75)
> > > Possibly this was another illegitimate daughter of Richard Rich the 1st Lord. He had at least four known illegits., including Richard Rich the steward of Leez, and three daughters.
> > >
> > > Although internal consistency is a massive problem with these Brownes of Horton Kirby. The account above gives Margaret Rich as the first wife, with an impossible age attached to the heir she produced, while the 1619 Kent Visitation says Margaret Rich was the second wife. The 1635 London Visitation does not mention her at all.
> > >
> > > Kent Vis. and London Vis. differ from the above in calling the other wife Mary's father a Whetstone, not a Webster.
> > A link to G.D. Scull's Browne-Rich typescript held at the NEHGS:
> >
> > http://circanceast.beaufortccc.edu/Brown/local%20personalities/sir%20william%20brown/Browne-Rich%20(BL143).pdf
> >
> > A comment on the birthdate usually assigned Percy Browne (ca. 1604) is necessary:
> >
> > In May 1621 we find the following in the House of Lords' journal:
> >
> > "Brown's Naturalization.
> >
> > Hodie 3a vice lecta est Billa, An Act for the Naturalizing of Percie Browne and Marie Browne, the Children of Sir William Browne, Knight, Lieutenant Governor of His Majesty's Cautionary Town of Flushing; and, being put to the Question, it was Assented unto."
> >
> > https://www.british-history.ac.uk/lords-jrnl/vol3/pp129-131
> >
> > Sir William Browne had some other of his children (William, Anne, and Barbara) naturalized in June 1604:
> >
> > https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951001352594p&view=1up&seq=162&skin=2021&q1=%22william%20anne%20and%20barbara%22
> >
> > I think it was assumed Percy must have been born after this first set of sibling naturalizations, but now, seeing that Anne (Rich) Browne, Percy's wife had to be at least six years older (based on the death date of Richard Rich, her father), this should be re-thought. It might not necessarily follow that all the older siblings were naturalized in 1604.
> [ca. 29 June 1604]
>
> WILLM. BROWNE ] Born at Flushing. Children of Sr Willm. Browne Knight, Lieutenant Governor of yor Ma[jes]ties Cautionarie towne
> ANNE BROWNE ] of Flushing, and Dame Marie Savage born at Ghant in Flanders his wife.
> BARBARA BROWNE ]
>
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t5x670q8j&view=1up&seq=52&skin=2021&q1=%22barbara%20browne%22
>
> [1622] July 10. PERCY BROWNE and
> MARY BROWNE, son and daughter of Sir William Browne, Knt., deceased, lately Lieutenant to his Majesty of the cautionary
> town of Vliessinghen, and both born in said town.
>
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t5x670q8j&view=1up&seq=79&skin=2021&q1=Vliessinghen

Reference: PROB 11/119/58
Description: Will of Sir William Browne of Snelston, Derbyshire
Date: 23 January 1612

On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 2:04:26 PM UTC-5, JBrand wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 1:19:09 PM UTC-5, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 11:14:54 AM UTC-5, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > > jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > 5:52 AM (10 hours ago)
> > > to
> > > Can you give a citation for the article on the Rich family in TAG? Sounds interesting...
> > > I have recorded it as NEHGR Vol 48 p 267-70 (1894)
> > >
> > > Adrian
> > The article(s) in TAG are on The House of Rich TAG 21-22 (1944/5) by Donald Lines Jacobus
> > Drags me back to the John Machell & Jane Loddington family which is so problematic for my James Cudworth connection

The will of Lady Margaret Wrothe, wife of Sir Thomas Wrothe, MP, and daughter of Richard and Jane (Machel) Rich, was witnessed by the Rev. Ralph Cudworth.

I got this a little backwards. The Wikipedia bio. of Rev. Ralph Cudworth says, "Cudworth died at Aller (Autumn 1624), declaring a nuncupative will (7 August 1624) before Anthony Earbury,[52] the puritan Prebendary of Wherwell and Vicar of Westonzoyland (1617–39),[53] and Dame Margaret Wroth..[54]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Cudworth_(died_1624)

On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 9:57:26 AM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 2:04:26 PM UTC-5, JBrand wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 1:19:09 PM UTC-5, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 11:14:54 AM UTC-5, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > > > jhigg...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > 5:52 AM (10 hours ago)
> > > > to
> > > > Can you give a citation for the article on the Rich family in TAG? Sounds interesting...
> > > > I have recorded it as NEHGR Vol 48 p 267-70 (1894)
> > > >
> > > > Adrian
> > > The article(s) in TAG are on The House of Rich TAG 21-22 (1944/5) by Donald Lines Jacobus
> > > Drags me back to the John Machell & Jane Loddington family which is so problematic for my James Cudworth connection
>
> The will of Lady Margaret Wrothe, wife of Sir Thomas Wrothe, MP, and daughter of Richard and Jane (Machel) Rich, was witnessed by the Rev. Ralph Cudworth.
> I got this a little backwards. The Wikipedia bio. of Rev. Ralph Cudworth says, "Cudworth died at Aller (Autumn 1624), declaring a nuncupative will (7 August 1624) before Anthony Earbury,[52] the puritan Prebendary of Wherwell and Vicar of Westonzoyland (1617–39),[53] and Dame Margaret Wroth.[54]"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Cudworth_(died_1624)

A little further information on Mary, widow of Rev. Ralph Cudworth, who married (2nd) Dr. John Stoughton.

Doug's _Plantagenet Ancestry_ says Dr. Stoughton's "wife, Mary, was living in December 1634."

An article from _Transactions of the Congregational Historical Society_, vol. 6 (1913/15), says that Mary Stoughton was mentioned as very ill in early April 1634, and that "[s]he died before 4th August of that year."

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=iau.31858044936650&view=1up&seq=104&skin=2021&q1=machell

The article also mentions Dr. Stoughton's receipt in 1634 of a letter from Sir Thomas Wroth of Petherton Park, Somersetshire. Perhaps interesting because Dorothy (Wroth) Lewknor, wife of Edward Lewknor, mid-1500s, had a daughter married to Mathew Machell, and (presumably) grandmother to Mary (Machell) (Cudworth) Stoughton.

Also, as is apparent, Dame Margaret Wroth, the wife of Sir Thomas Wroth of Petherton Park, which is within a couple miles of Aller, Somerset, was a connection of these Machels through her mother Jane (Machell) Rich of Leez.

Two items here-

1. When exactly was Richard Rich, the illegitimate son, born? I'm the descendant of Audrey Etheldreda Rich, his half sister. I have never heard of this connection, particularly to New England.

2. So there was a "Mr. Pease, a physician" in this record, which is also relevant to me because my ancestor, John Pease of Great Baddow, Essex, is probably related to this family somehow. I also noted that there was a Henry Pease of Woodham mentioned, which is of course near Great Baddow.

Darrell

On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 10:35:17 AM UTC-5, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> Two items here-
>
> 1. When exactly was Richard Rich, the illegitimate son, born? I'm the descendant of Audrey Etheldreda Rich, his half sister. I have never heard of this connection, particularly to New England.
>
> 2. So there was a "Mr. Pease, a physician" in this record, which is also relevant to me because my ancestor, John Pease of Great Baddow, Essex, is probably related to this family somehow. I also noted that there was a Henry Pease of Woodham mentioned, which is of course near Great Baddow.
>
> Darrell

The _TAG_ article from the mid-1940s estimates Richard Rich was born ca. 1560. However, as he clearly married in 1574, this must be a few years too late. I would assume 1554 or earlier. You may not have much luck finding firm birth dates for most illegits. of upper-status families at this time.

I don't know anything about the Peases ... sorry!

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