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interests / soc.genealogy.medieval / Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.

SubjectAuthor
* Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.Adrian Channing
+* Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.Peter Stewart
|`* Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.Peter Stewart
| `* Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.Adrian Channing
|  `- Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.Peter Stewart
`* Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.ninimimi3116
 `* Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.pj.ev...@gmail.com
  +- Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.ninimimi3116
  `- Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.ninimimi3116

1
Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.

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Subject: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.
From: adrianch...@btinternet.com (Adrian Channing)
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 by: Adrian Channing - Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:51 UTC

In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297

In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place sometime before June 1302

The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had subsequent marriages.

If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke

(01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
(02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
(03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
(04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
(05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
(06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
(07) Isabel Bigod
(08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
(09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
(10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
(11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er Warwick
(12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
(13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
(14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
(15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke

(01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
(02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(03) Alice d’Angouleme
(04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
(06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
(07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
(08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
(09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
(10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
(11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
(12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
(13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
(14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
(15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)

Adrian

Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.

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From: pss...@optusnet.com.au (Peter Stewart)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 11:06:53 +1000
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 by: Peter Stewart - Fri, 18 Jun 2021 01:06 UTC

On 18-Jun-21 2:51 AM, Adrian Channing wrote:
> In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
> Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297
>
> In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
> https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
> paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place sometime before June 1302
>
> The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had subsequent marriages.
>
> If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
>
> (01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
> (02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
> (03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
> (04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
> (05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
> (06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
> (07) Isabel Bigod
> (08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
> (09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
> (10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
> (11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er Warwick
> (12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
> (13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
> (14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
> (15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
>
>
> (01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
> (02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> (03) Alice d’Angouleme
> (04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> (05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
> (06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
> (07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
> (08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> (09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> (10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
> (11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
> (12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
> (13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
> (14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
> (15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)

The marriage had taken place before 30 May 1302 according to the first
mention of it in the register linked above, pp 8-9.

CP vol 12 ii p 371 says "He m., Istly, before 11 May 1297, Isabel ..."
and note (i) cites for this *Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
Relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters* vol 1 p 570 where
against this date it says "Dispensation ... to remain in the marriage
they have contracted, they being related in the fourth degree of
kindred; declaring their future offspring legitimate".

However, the entry in the register of Boniface VIII (#1872 dated 11 May
1297) does not say that they are already irrevocably married but only
that they have been betrothed by a contract "per verba de futuro",
although related in the fourth degree, with the consent of prelates and
magnates of England subject to receiving papal license. The status of
future offspring is not mentioned, but implicitly any children of the
couple would be legitimate under the terms of the fourth-degree
dispensation issued on 11 May 1297.

There is no entry in the published registers of Boniface VIII
corresponding to the appointment of the bishop of Winchester to decide
Guy's appeal against the archbishop of Canterbury and Isabella said to
be dated at the Lateran on 7 May 1302, though Boniface was there on that
date issuing other documents so this one may have escaped the medieval
compiler. There is also no evidence in the registers of the outcome of
Guy's appeal, but since he went on to marry Alice de Tosny in
January/February 1310 the decision clearly went against him.

The relationship you have tabulated above through common descent from
William Marshal accounts for consanguinity in the fourth degree, as
dispensed on 11 May 1297, not for the third degree alleged later.

Peter Stewart

Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.

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From: pss...@optusnet.com.au (Peter Stewart)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.
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 by: Peter Stewart - Fri, 18 Jun 2021 02:01 UTC

On 18-Jun-21 11:06 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 18-Jun-21 2:51 AM, Adrian Channing wrote:
>> In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
>> Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de
>> Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and
>> Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in
>> the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297
>>
>> In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
>> https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
>> paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place
>> sometime before June 1302
>>
>> The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of
>> consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had
>> subsequent marriages.
>>
>> If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William
>> Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
>>
>> (01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
>> (02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
>> (03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
>> (04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
>> (05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
>> (06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
>> (07) Isabel Bigod
>> (08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
>> (09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
>> (10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
>> (11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er
>> Warwick
>> (12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
>> (13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
>> (14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
>> (15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
>>
>>
>> (01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
>> (02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
>> (03) Alice d’Angouleme
>> (04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
>> (05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
>> (06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
>> (07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
>> (08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
>> (09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
>> (10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
>> (11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
>> (12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
>> (13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
>> (14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
>> (15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)
>
> The marriage had taken place before 30 May 1302 according to the first
> mention of it in the register linked above, pp 8-9.
>
> CP vol 12 ii p 371 says "He m., Istly, before 11 May 1297, Isabel ..."
> and note (i) cites for this *Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
> Relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters* vol 1 p 570 where
> against this date it says "Dispensation ... to remain in the marriage
> they have contracted, they being related in the fourth degree of
> kindred; declaring their future offspring legitimate".
>
> However, the entry in the register of Boniface VIII (#1872 dated 11 May
> 1297) does not say that they are already irrevocably married but only
> that they have been betrothed by a contract "per verba de futuro",
> although related in the fourth degree, with the consent of prelates and
> magnates of England subject to receiving papal license. The status of
> future offspring is not mentioned, but implicitly any children of the
> couple would be legitimate under the terms of the fourth-degree
> dispensation issued on 11 May 1297.
>
> There is no entry in the published registers of Boniface VIII
> corresponding to the appointment of the bishop of Winchester to decide
> Guy's appeal against the archbishop of Canterbury and Isabella said to
> be dated at the Lateran on 7 May 1302, though Boniface was there on that
> date issuing other documents so this one may have escaped the medieval
> compiler. There is also no evidence in the registers of the outcome of
> Guy's appeal, but since he went on to marry Alice de Tosny in
> January/February 1310 the decision clearly went against him.

There is also no corresponding entry in the registers of John of
Pontoise, the bishop of Winchester at the time - no record of the matter
at all.

Peter Stewart

Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.

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Subject: Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.
From: adrianch...@btinternet.com (Adrian Channing)
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 by: Adrian Channing - Fri, 18 Jun 2021 23:25 UTC

On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 3:01:25 AM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> On 18-Jun-21 11:06 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > On 18-Jun-21 2:51 AM, Adrian Channing wrote:
> >> In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
> >> Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de
> >> Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and
> >> Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in
> >> the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297
> >>
> >> In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
> >> https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
> >> paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place
> >> sometime before June 1302
> >>
> >> The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of
> >> consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had
> >> subsequent marriages.
> >>
> >> If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William
> >> Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> >>
> >> (01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
> >> (02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
> >> (03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
> >> (04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
> >> (05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
> >> (06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
> >> (07) Isabel Bigod
> >> (08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
> >> (09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
> >> (10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
> >> (11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er
> >> Warwick
> >> (12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
> >> (13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
> >> (14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
> >> (15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> >>
> >>
> >> (01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
> >> (02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> >> (03) Alice d’Angouleme
> >> (04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> >> (05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
> >> (06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
> >> (07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
> >> (08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> >> (09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> >> (10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
> >> (11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
> >> (12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
> >> (13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
> >> (14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
> >> (15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)
> >
> > The marriage had taken place before 30 May 1302 according to the first
> > mention of it in the register linked above, pp 8-9.
> >
> > CP vol 12 ii p 371 says "He m., Istly, before 11 May 1297, Isabel ..."
> > and note (i) cites for this *Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
> > Relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters* vol 1 p 570 where
> > against this date it says "Dispensation ... to remain in the marriage
> > they have contracted, they being related in the fourth degree of
> > kindred; declaring their future offspring legitimate".
> >
> > However, the entry in the register of Boniface VIII (#1872 dated 11 May
> > 1297) does not say that they are already irrevocably married but only
> > that they have been betrothed by a contract "per verba de futuro",
> > although related in the fourth degree, with the consent of prelates and
> > magnates of England subject to receiving papal license. The status of
> > future offspring is not mentioned, but implicitly any children of the
> > couple would be legitimate under the terms of the fourth-degree
> > dispensation issued on 11 May 1297.
> >
> > There is no entry in the published registers of Boniface VIII
> > corresponding to the appointment of the bishop of Winchester to decide
> > Guy's appeal against the archbishop of Canterbury and Isabella said to
> > be dated at the Lateran on 7 May 1302, though Boniface was there on that
> > date issuing other documents so this one may have escaped the medieval
> > compiler. There is also no evidence in the registers of the outcome of
> > Guy's appeal, but since he went on to marry Alice de Tosny in
> > January/February 1310 the decision clearly went against him.
> There is also no corresponding entry in the registers of John of
> Pontoise, the bishop of Winchester at the time - no record of the matter
> at all.
>
> Peter Stewart

Thanks Peter, for your interesting input. It looks as though what exactly happened was unrecorded or no longer extant.

Adrian

Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.

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From: pss...@optusnet.com.au (Peter Stewart)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 11:07:46 +1000
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 by: Peter Stewart - Sat, 19 Jun 2021 01:07 UTC

On 19-Jun-21 9:25 AM, Adrian Channing wrote:
> On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 3:01:25 AM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
>> On 18-Jun-21 11:06 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>> On 18-Jun-21 2:51 AM, Adrian Channing wrote:
>>>> In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
>>>> Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de
>>>> Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and
>>>> Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in
>>>> the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297
>>>>
>>>> In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
>>>> https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
>>>> paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place
>>>> sometime before June 1302
>>>>
>>>> The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of
>>>> consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had
>>>> subsequent marriages.
>>>>
>>>> If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William
>>>> Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
>>>>
>>>> (01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
>>>> (02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
>>>> (03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
>>>> (04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
>>>> (05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
>>>> (06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
>>>> (07) Isabel Bigod
>>>> (08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
>>>> (09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
>>>> (10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
>>>> (11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er
>>>> Warwick
>>>> (12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
>>>> (13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
>>>> (14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
>>>> (15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
>>>> (02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
>>>> (03) Alice d’Angouleme
>>>> (04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
>>>> (05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
>>>> (06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
>>>> (07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
>>>> (08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
>>>> (09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
>>>> (10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
>>>> (11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
>>>> (12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
>>>> (13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
>>>> (14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
>>>> (15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)
>>>
>>> The marriage had taken place before 30 May 1302 according to the first
>>> mention of it in the register linked above, pp 8-9.
>>>
>>> CP vol 12 ii p 371 says "He m., Istly, before 11 May 1297, Isabel ..."
>>> and note (i) cites for this *Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers
>>> Relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters* vol 1 p 570 where
>>> against this date it says "Dispensation ... to remain in the marriage
>>> they have contracted, they being related in the fourth degree of
>>> kindred; declaring their future offspring legitimate".
>>>
>>> However, the entry in the register of Boniface VIII (#1872 dated 11 May
>>> 1297) does not say that they are already irrevocably married but only
>>> that they have been betrothed by a contract "per verba de futuro",
>>> although related in the fourth degree, with the consent of prelates and
>>> magnates of England subject to receiving papal license. The status of
>>> future offspring is not mentioned, but implicitly any children of the
>>> couple would be legitimate under the terms of the fourth-degree
>>> dispensation issued on 11 May 1297.
>>>
>>> There is no entry in the published registers of Boniface VIII
>>> corresponding to the appointment of the bishop of Winchester to decide
>>> Guy's appeal against the archbishop of Canterbury and Isabella said to
>>> be dated at the Lateran on 7 May 1302, though Boniface was there on that
>>> date issuing other documents so this one may have escaped the medieval
>>> compiler. There is also no evidence in the registers of the outcome of
>>> Guy's appeal, but since he went on to marry Alice de Tosny in
>>> January/February 1310 the decision clearly went against him.
>> There is also no corresponding entry in the registers of John of
>> Pontoise, the bishop of Winchester at the time - no record of the matter
>> at all.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>
> Thanks Peter, for your interesting input. It looks as though what exactly happened was unrecorded or no longer extant.

Thanks to your ancestor table, it looks to me as if Isabella and her
family may have regretted the contract for her to marry Guy and in order
to get out of it and perhaps bamboozled the bishop of Winchester with a
welter of Clare ancestry.

At any rate they had already been permitted to marry with fourth degree
consanguinity, and it appears that the alleged third degree was
fictitious. There doesn't seem to be evidence that Rome was further
involved, apart from the May 1302 intervention by the archbishop of
Canterbury and the papal appointment of the bishop to decide on Guy's
appeal that was not included in Boniface VIII's register. This leaves an
impression that the fix was in, and maybe John of Pontoise was willingly
deceived but not keen to record this in his own register.

Peter Stewart

Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.

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Subject: Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.
From: h2buckm...@gmail.com (ninimimi3116)
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 by: ninimimi3116 - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 14:19 UTC

On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 12:51:10 PM UTC-4, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
> Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297
>
> In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
> https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
> paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place sometime before June 1302
>
> The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had subsequent marriages.
>
> If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
>
> (01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
> (02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
> (03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
> (04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
> (05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
> (06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
> (07) Isabel Bigod
> (08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
> (09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
> (10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
> (11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er Warwick
> (12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
> (13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
> (14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
> (15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
>
>
> (01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
> (02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> (03) Alice d’Angouleme
> (04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> (05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
> (06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
> (07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
> (08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> (09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> (10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
> (11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
> (12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
> (13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
> (14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
> (15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)
>
> Adrian
I would be forever grateful if you or others would show me the line from Geoffrey FitzPiers(1162-1213) to William Marshal, Knight. Also, any other lines from Agnes Harris, Gateway Immigrant, to William Marshal. I have found William Marshal to be an ancestor to immigrants Thomas Dudley, Jane Allen, Grace Chetwode, Robert Abell, and Edward Raynsford in my ancestry database for family members. And now I am looking at Agnes Harris. Thank you!

Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.

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Subject: Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.
From: pj.evan...@gmail.com (pj.ev...@gmail.com)
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 by: pj.ev...@gmail.com - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 16:29 UTC

On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 6:19:36 AM UTC-8, ninimimi3116 wrote:
> On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 12:51:10 PM UTC-4, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
> > Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297
> >
> > In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
> > https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
> > paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place sometime before June 1302
> >
> > The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had subsequent marriages.
> >
> > If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> >
> > (01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
> > (02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
> > (03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
> > (04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
> > (05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
> > (06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
> > (07) Isabel Bigod
> > (08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
> > (09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
> > (10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
> > (11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er Warwick
> > (12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
> > (13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
> > (14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
> > (15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> >
> >
> > (01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
> > (02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> > (03) Alice d’Angouleme
> > (04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> > (05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
> > (06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
> > (07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
> > (08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> > (09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> > (10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
> > (11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
> > (12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
> > (13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
> > (14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
> > (15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)
> >
> > Adrian
> I would be forever grateful if you or others would show me the line from Geoffrey FitzPiers(1162-1213) to William Marshal, Knight. Also, any other lines from Agnes Harris, Gateway Immigrant, to William Marshal. I have found William Marshal to be an ancestor to immigrants Thomas Dudley, Jane Allen, Grace Chetwode, Robert Abell, and Edward Raynsford in my ancestry database for family members. And now I am looking at Agnes Harris. Thank you!

Geoffrey fitzPiers is a contemporary of Marshal, not an ancestor. Those are 5-generation pedigrees, so fill in the charts and you can see the relationships..

Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.

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Subject: Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.
From: h2buckm...@gmail.com (ninimimi3116)
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 by: ninimimi3116 - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 19:07 UTC

On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 11:29:51 AM UTC-5, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 6:19:36 AM UTC-8, ninimimi3116 wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 12:51:10 PM UTC-4, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > > In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
> > > Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297
> > >
> > > In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
> > > https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
> > > paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place sometime before June 1302
> > >
> > > The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had subsequent marriages.
> > >
> > > If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> > >
> > > (01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
> > > (02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
> > > (03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
> > > (04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
> > > (05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
> > > (06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
> > > (07) Isabel Bigod
> > > (08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
> > > (09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
> > > (10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
> > > (11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er Warwick
> > > (12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
> > > (13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
> > > (14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
> > > (15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> > >
> > >
> > > (01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
> > > (02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> > > (03) Alice d’Angouleme
> > > (04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> > > (05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
> > > (06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
> > > (07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
> > > (08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> > > (09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> > > (10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
> > > (11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
> > > (12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
> > > (13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
> > > (14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
> > > (15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)
> > >
> > > Adrian
> > I would be forever grateful if you or others would show me the line from Geoffrey FitzPiers(1162-1213) to William Marshal, Knight. Also, any other lines from Agnes Harris, Gateway Immigrant, to William Marshal. I have found William Marshal to be an ancestor to immigrants Thomas Dudley, Jane Allen, Grace Chetwode, Robert Abell, and Edward Raynsford in my ancestry database for family members. And now I am looking at Agnes Harris. Thank you!
> Geoffrey fitzPiers is a contemporary of Marshal, not an ancestor. Those are 5-generation pedigrees, so fill in the charts and you can see the relationships..
I see, like Ahnentafel numbers. Thank you, I didn't understand. I was able to join some of the people I already had. I appreciate your information very much.

Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.

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Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2022 13:25:43 -0800 (PST)
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Subject: Re: Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10th Earl of Warwick.
From: h2buckm...@gmail.com (ninimimi3116)
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 by: ninimimi3116 - Thu, 24 Feb 2022 21:25 UTC

On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 11:29:51 AM UTC-5, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 24, 2022 at 6:19:36 AM UTC-8, ninimimi3116 wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 17, 2021 at 12:51:10 PM UTC-4, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > > In Complete Peerage Vol 12 ii p 371 sub-note (j)
> > > Doubt is expressed as to whether the first marriage of Guy de Beauchamp to Isabel da. of Gilbert de Clare 6th Earl of Gloucester and Hertford ever took place or otherwise was not consummated, dated in the text of C.P. as taking place before 11 May 1297
> > >
> > > In Registrum Sede Vacante_ (Priory of Worcester Part 1)
> > > https://archive.org/details/registerofdioces00worcuoft/page/8/mode/2up
> > > paragraph 3 and 4 on page 9 shows that the marriage had taken place sometime before June 1302
> > >
> > > The marriage is reported to be within the third degree of consanguinity and thus presumably was annulled as both parties had subsequent marriages.
> > >
> > > If I have the following correct, the common ancestor is William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> > >
> > > (01) Guy de Beauchamp (c.1270-1315) 10Er of Warwick.
> > > (02) William de Beauchamp (c1240-1298) 9Er of Warwick
> > > (03) Maud (-1301) d&ch of Sir John Fitzgeoffrey, of Shere
> > > (04) William de Beauchamp (-1268) of Elmley
> > > (05) Isabel Mauduit (1214-bfr 1268) sis of Wm Mauduit 8Er Warwick
> > > (06) John Fitzgeoffrey (-1258) of Shere
> > > (07) Isabel Bigod
> > > (08) Walter de Beauchamp (-c1236)
> > > (09) Joane da of Roger de Mortimer (c1150-1215)
> > > (10) William Mauduit (1196-1257) of Hanslope etc
> > > (11) Alice de Newburgh (1196-bfr 1263) sis of the half blood to 4Er Warwick
> > > (12) Geoffrey FitzPiers (c1162-1213) Earl of Essex
> > > (13) Aveline de Clare (-c1220)
> > > (14) Hugh le Bigod (c1182-1225) 3Er of Norfolk
> > > (15) Maud Marshal (c1193-1248) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> > >
> > >
> > > (01) Isabel de Clare (1263-1333)
> > > (02) Gilbert de Clare (1243-1295) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> > > (03) Alice d’Angouleme
> > > (04) Richard de Clare (1222-1262) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> > > (05) Maude de Lacy (-1289)
> > > (06) Hugh le Brun de Lusignan (c1221-1250)
> > > (07) Yoland de Bretagne Comtessa de Penthieve (1218-1272)
> > > (08) Gilbert de Clare (1180-1230) Er of Gloucester & Hertford
> > > (09) Isabel Marshal (1200-1240) da of William Marshal 1Er of Pembroke
> > > (10) John de Lacy (1192-1240) Er of Lincoln
> > > (11) Margaret de Quincy (c.1206-1266)
> > > (12) Hugues le Brun de Lusignan (c1190-1249)
> > > (13) Isabella d’Angouleme (c1188-1246)
> > > (14) Pierre Duc de Bretagne (c1190-1250)
> > > (15) Alix de Thouars, Duchesse de Bretagne (c1200-1221)
> > >
> > > Adrian
> > I would be forever grateful if you or others would show me the line from Geoffrey FitzPiers(1162-1213) to William Marshal, Knight. Also, any other lines from Agnes Harris, Gateway Immigrant, to William Marshal. I have found William Marshal to be an ancestor to immigrants Thomas Dudley, Jane Allen, Grace Chetwode, Robert Abell, and Edward Raynsford in my ancestry database for family members. And now I am looking at Agnes Harris. Thank you!
> Geoffrey fitzPiers is a contemporary of Marshal, not an ancestor. Those are 5-generation pedigrees, so fill in the charts and you can see the relationships..
I see now, like ahnentafel numbers. Thank you, I was able to join some of my tree together.

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