Hello,

I noticed that in an earlier post Brad Verity has outlined the following lineage:

1A) Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe (c.1360-1425, great-great-grandson of Edward I) m. 3) Philippa Arcedekne (1386-by1416), and had
2A) Joan Courtenay (1411-1465) m. 1) Sir Nicholas Carew of Mohan Ottery (1406-1448, descended from Edward I), and had
3A) Alexander Carew of Antony House (d. 1492) m. Isabel Hatch, and had
4A) John Carew of Antony House m. Thomasine Holland, and had
5A) Joan Carew m. 1511 John Floyer of Floyers Hayes, and had
6A) William Floyer of Floyers Hayes (d. 1578) m. Elizabeth Kirke (d. 1566),

(https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/2Bqrww_7DY8/m/zmq3sMg7AQAJ)

I would appreciate more information about the evidence/sources for Joan Carew's (wife of John Floyer) parentage.

Also, is there any information about Thomasine Holland's parentage? I came across that she was the daughter of Roger Holland , Sheriff of Devon, but wasn't able to find a lot of information about his pedigree (https://www.google.ca/books/edition/The_History_of_the_Suburbs_of_Exeter/fjgQAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA163&printsec=frontcover)

Many thanks,

Andrew

On Thursday, March 3, 2022 at 9:16:52 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
> I noticed that in an earlier post Brad Verity has outlined the following lineage:

Hello Andrew,

Below are my sources for the pedigree:

> 1A) Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe (c.1360-1425, great-great-grandson of Edward I) m. 3) Philippa Arcedekne (1386-by1416), and had
> 2A) Joan Courtenay (1411-1465) m. 1) Sir Nicholas Carew of Mohan Ottery (1406-1448, descended from Edward I), and had
> 3A) Alexander Carew of Antony House (d. 1492) m. Isabel Hatch, and had

“4a Alexander, of East Antony, Cornwall; d 1492, leaving issue, including the CAREW Bts of Antony (1641-1799), themselves ancestors of the later CAREW-POLE Bts.” [BP 107th Edn (2003): 682 (sub Carew, Bt).]

> 4A) John Carew of Antony House m. Thomasine Holland, and had
> 5A) Joan Carew m. 1511 John Floyer of Floyers Hayes, and had
> 6A) William Floyer of Floyers Hayes (d. 1578) m. Elizabeth Kirke (d. 1566),

> I would appreciate more information about the evidence/sources for Joan Carew's (wife of John Floyer) parentage.

“John Floyer of Floyer’s Hayes, co. Devon (son of William Floyer of Floyer’s Hayes, by Philippa his wife, dau. and heir of John Croke of Box, co. Wilts); mentioned in his mother’s will 10 April 1511. = Joan Carew, dau. of John Carew of Anthony House, co. Cornwall (his second cousin); settlements before marriage dated 10 April 1511.” [Visitation of England and Wales Volume 5 (1903): 24-29 (Pedigree of Floyer).]
https://archive.org/details/visitationengla00unkngoog/page/n35/mode/2up

> Also, is there any information about Thomasine Holland's parentage? I came across that she was the daughter of Roger Holland , Sheriff of Devon, but wasn't able to find a lot of information about his pedigree
(https://www.google.ca/books/edition/The_History_of_the_Suburbs_of_Exeter/fjgQAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA163&printsec=frontcover)

There is a HOP entry for Sir Wymond Carew, the son of John Carew of Antony House & Thomasine Holland:
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/carew-sir-wymond-1498-1549

The sources for his parentage are cited: "Vis. Devon , ed. Vivian, 139; Vis.. Cornw. (Harl. Soc. ix), 31."

I have Roger Cowick of Exeter, M.P. Totnes 1491-92: Exeter 1504, b. c.1450; died 23 Jan. 1507; m. Elizabeth -- , which I pulled from his entry in Wedgwood's HOP 1439-1509 (1936).

> Many thanks,

Thank you Andrew.

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 3:17:17 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Thursday, March 3, 2022 at 9:16:52 AM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
> > I noticed that in an earlier post Brad Verity has outlined the following lineage:
> Hello Andrew,
>
> Below are my sources for the pedigree:
> > 1A) Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe (c.1360-1425, great-great-grandson of Edward I) m. 3) Philippa Arcedekne (1386-by1416), and had
> > 2A) Joan Courtenay (1411-1465) m. 1) Sir Nicholas Carew of Mohan Ottery (1406-1448, descended from Edward I), and had
> > 3A) Alexander Carew of Antony House (d. 1492) m. Isabel Hatch, and had
> “4a Alexander, of East Antony, Cornwall; d 1492, leaving issue, including the CAREW Bts of Antony (1641-1799), themselves ancestors of the later CAREW-POLE Bts.” [BP 107th Edn (2003): 682 (sub Carew, Bt).]
> > 4A) John Carew of Antony House m. Thomasine Holland, and had
> > 5A) Joan Carew m. 1511 John Floyer of Floyers Hayes, and had
> > 6A) William Floyer of Floyers Hayes (d. 1578) m. Elizabeth Kirke (d. 1566),
> > I would appreciate more information about the evidence/sources for Joan Carew's (wife of John Floyer) parentage.
> “John Floyer of Floyer’s Hayes, co. Devon (son of William Floyer of Floyer’s Hayes, by Philippa his wife, dau. and heir of John Croke of Box, co. Wilts); mentioned in his mother’s will 10 April 1511. = Joan Carew, dau. of John Carew of Anthony House, co. Cornwall (his second cousin); settlements before marriage dated 10 April 1511.” [Visitation of England and Wales Volume 5 (1903): 24-29 (Pedigree of Floyer).]
> https://archive.org/details/visitationengla00unkngoog/page/n35/mode/2up
> > Also, is there any information about Thomasine Holland's parentage? I came across that she was the daughter of Roger Holland , Sheriff of Devon, but wasn't able to find a lot of information about his pedigree
> (https://www.google.ca/books/edition/The_History_of_the_Suburbs_of_Exeter/fjgQAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA163&printsec=frontcover)
> There is a HOP entry for Sir Wymond Carew, the son of John Carew of Antony House & Thomasine Holland:
> http://www.histparl.ac.uk/volume/1509-1558/member/carew-sir-wymond-1498-1549
>
> The sources for his parentage are cited: "Vis. Devon , ed. Vivian, 139; Vis. Cornw. (Harl. Soc. ix), 31."
>
> I have Roger Cowick of Exeter, M.P. Totnes 1491-92: Exeter 1504, b. c.1450; died 23 Jan. 1507; m. Elizabeth -- , which I pulled from his entry in Wedgwood's HOP 1439-1509 (1936).
>
> > Many thanks,
>
> Thank you Andrew.

Hi Brad,

As always, your detailed responses are very helpful and much appreciated! Here is the the Floyer pedigree from Vivian's Visitations of Devon (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002002213917&view=1up&seq=358&skin=2021); unfortunately, the Carew of Antony pedigree in the same book doesn't show any siblings for Sir Wymond Carew (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=yale.39002002213917&view=1up&seq=153&skin=2021), but, as you well know, the visitation pedigrees don't always link up as they should.

Very interesting about Roger Holland/Cowick, definitely worth exploring further. FYI, his will has been digitized by the National Archives, I just found it: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D972772.

When I was researching the Hockmore lineage (https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/VI9Xcot0EbI), I found it interesting how each generation I looked at in detail married a descendant of Edward I (Floyer, Michell, Reynell, Hele, Prestwood spouses), who were all descended in various ways from the same union (Hugh Courtney and Margaret de Bohun), highlighting the intermarriage patterns of Devon gentry.

Thanks again and all the best!

Andrew

On Sunday, March 6, 2022 at 5:57:51 PM UTC-8, Andrew Z wrote:
> > I have Roger Cowick of Exeter, M.P. Totnes 1491-92: Exeter 1504, b. c.1450; died 23 Jan. 1507; m. Elizabeth -- , which I pulled from his entry in Wedgwood's HOP 1439-1509 (1936).
> Very interesting about Roger Holland/Cowick, definitely worth exploring further. FYI, his will has been digitized by the National Archives, I just found it: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D972772.

Thank you for the link to the will. Whoops, I wrote "Roger Cowick of Exeter" and that should be "Roger Holland of Cowick".

> When I was researching the Hockmore lineage (https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/VI9Xcot0EbI), I found it interesting how each generation I looked at in detail married a descendant of Edward I (Floyer, Michell, Reynell, Hele, Prestwood spouses), who were all descended in various ways from the same union (Hugh Courtney and Margaret de Bohun), highlighting the intermarriage patterns of Devon gentry.

I have been interested in the Courtenay family since I first started posting to SocGenMed. When I toured Powderham Castle a couple years ago, I learned from the guide that Henry V's closest friend was Rt Rev. Richard Courtenay, Bishop of Exeter (c.1380-1415), and that Bishop Courtenay is buried in the same tomb in the St Edward the Confessor Chapel in Westminster Abbey as Henry V. Per the ODNB entry for Bishop Courtenay:
"On 24 July 1415 Courtenay was appointed as an executor of Henry V's will. He crossed with the army on 13 August to undertake the siege of Harfleur. Evidently not in the fittest of condition, he is presumed to have contracted dysentery, like so many others there. Henry V himself was with him when he died, at Harfleur, between 14 and 16 September, and personally closed the bishop's eyes. Unlike the king, Courtenay had not made a will. Henry had the body sent back to the chapel of Edward the Confessor in Westminster Abbey, where it was buried in the plot he had already designated for his own interment. There he remains, unobtrusively sharing the magnificent royal tomb. When Henry himself was buried on 8 November 1422, Courtenay's feet had to be amputated and placed neatly under his armpits to allow the king's body its exact space. He was not to be moved. There was not, and never has been, any suggestion that theirs was more than a deep friendship, or that the bishop was an unworthy associate of the young king. Courtenay's noble origins and precocious studies suggested a rich future anyway, but Henry V's friendship promised him a share of greatness. For neither would life prove long enough for this promise to be fulfilled."

I have the first nine generations of the Edward III descent for the Hockmore family which you posted a few weeks ago, down to:
> 1. Edward III, King of England and Philippa of Hainault
> 2. John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster and Katherine de Roet
> 3. Cardinal Henry Beaufort, Bishop of Winchester
> 4. Joan Beaufort and Sir Edward Stradling
> 5. Sir Henry Stradling and Elizabeth ap Thomas
> 6. Thomas Stradling and Jenet Matthew
> 7. Sir Edward Stradling and Elizabeth Arundell
> 8. Jane Stradling and Alexander Popham
>
> 9. Elizabeth Popham and Richard Michell
> Abstract of Richard Michell’s will (proved 1563): https://books.google.ca/books?id=RktFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false

I have Elizabeth Popham, married Richard Michell of Perry Court (born c.1524; died 1563 Middle Temple, London), son of Thomas Michell of East Chilton (d. 1539, descended from Edward I, mtDNA descendant of Eleanor of Castile) & Joan Warre (d. 1539).

I don't yet have in my database their son Sir Bartholomew Michell (d. by 1616), father-in-law of William Hockmore of Buckland Baron (d. by 1607). The only child I have so far is their daughter Elizabeth Michell (d. 1608), wife of Roger Ayshford of Ayshford Court (1534-1611).

> Thanks again and all the best!
> Andrew

Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad

Hi Brad,

Thank you for your quick response!

> I have been interested in the Courtenay family since I first started posting to SocGenMed. When I toured Powderham Castle a couple years ago, I learned from the guide that Henry V's closest friend was Rt Rev. Richard Courtenay, Bishop of Exeter (c.1380-1415), and that Bishop Courtenay is buried in the same tomb in the St Edward the Confessor Chapel in Westminster Abbey as Henry V.

Actually, Hockmore spouses Mary Reynell, Honor Hele and Mary Prestwood were descendants of Sir Phillip Courteney of Powderham Castle. The Courteney family is certainly fascinating to study because, among other things, of its genealogical scope. As you well know, a descendant of Sir Phillip married Catherine of York and whose son was a potential rival dynast to Henry VIII; however, according to Anthony Wagner’s English Genealogy, another female descendant of his married a yeoman, John Moggridge and when in 1880s “the late Earl of Devon visited Molland, he met a hale old yeoman there named Moggridge. He held out his hand to him; ‘Cousin’ he said ‘jump into the carriage with me, and les us have a drive together; we have not met for one hundred and eighty years.’”

That’s great that you visited Powderham castle, my own list of castles to see as the result of genealogical research keeps growing! I didn’t know that about Rt.Rev. Richard Courtney, Bishop of Norwich or that that him and Henry V were that close or that Henry V is sharing his tomb with another person in one of the most prestigious chapels in England. Absolutely fascinating.

> I have the first nine generations of the Edward III descent for the Hockmore family which you posted a few weeks ago, down to:

Thank you for reading my post and confirming the first nine generations of Edward III descent to the Hockmore family. I was hoping to hear that, since I was building on (your) previous research and didn’t feel the need to verify those generations, except for reading Henry Beaufort’s will out of curiosity. As a side note, I think it’s interesting that in the original will he leaves bequests for only three individuals (not counting compensation for the executors): the king, who got a gold cup, a servant, who got 40 pounds and Jane Stradling who got many various items on top of 100 pounds in gold (the Latin version includes additional things that aren’t mentioned in the translated abstract https://www.google.ca/books/edition/A_Collection_of_All_the_Wills_Now_Known/yF8NAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA329&printsec=frontcover).
By the way, FYI, I came across your Foundations article being cited in Kathryn Swynford book by Alison Weir (in reference to “It has often been stated that her mother was Eleanor FitzAlan, daughter of the Earl of Arundel, but there is no evidence to support that claim”).

Also, I am not sure if you came across the fact that Richard Michell’s father murdered his wife and sister-in-law, before taking his own life: https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Proceedings_in_the_Court_of_the_Star_Cha/FzAsAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA218&printsec=frontcover

Should you ever decide to add subsequent Michell/Hockmore generations to your database, the key document for me was Sir Bartholomew Michell’s will in which he helpfully mentions his cousins Edward and Thomas Popham, his nephews Henry and Thomas Aishford, his son-in-law William Huckmore and his daughter Jane Huckmore (whose parentage is also indicated on William Hockmore’s memorial tablet and his HOP article). Bartholomew Michell is himself mentioned in the wills of Sir John Popham and Thomas Popham. In addition to proved wills, I was also lucky find a court document confirming the Hockmore lineage that stated that Davidge Gould’s wife and her sisters were “daughters of William Hockmere esq, late of Buckland Baron, Devon, son and heir of Sir Gregory Hockmere kt deceased, late of Buckland Baron, the son and heir of Gregory Hockmere, esq deceased, late of Buckland Baron” I’d be happy to send you my full research notes should you need them one day.

> Rev. J. K. Floyer, M.A., F.S.A., wrote an article, entitled 'Pedigree of the Family of Floyer, 11th to 16th Century; With Evidences and Notes' as a follow-up to the Floyer pedigrees in the Visitation of England and Wales Notes Volume 5 linked above. It was published in 'Miscellanea Genealogica et Heraldica' 4th Series, Vol. 5 (1914), pp. 303-307, 346-351.
>
> In Note W on p. 351, Rev. Floyer transcribes the 1511 marriage settlement of John Floyer and Joan Carew of Antony mentioned in the 1903 Floyer pedigree in VEW Notes. If transcribed correctly, we have the contemporary early 16th-century evidence that John Floyer's wife Joan was the daughter of John Carew of Antony House:
>
> "Omnibus Christi fidelibus, etc., Philippa ffloyer vidua nuper uxor Willelmi ffloyer salutem in domino sempiterno Noverint me prefatam Philippa dedisse, etc., Johanni ffloyer filio et heredi apparenti mei et Johanne Carew filie Johannis Carew de Anthony armigeri quam vero Johannam dictus Johannes ffloyer gracia divina ducet [footnote: Duxit?] in uxorem omen meam terram de Hulkbeare et Wauhall, etc. Tenendum predicto Johanni et Johanne et heredibus de corporibus, etc. Testibus Johanne Moore et aliis. Dat. 10 die Aprilis Anno R. Regis Henrici 8 2ndo (1511). (B. and P.)"
>
> I'm sorry, I can't easily figure out what exactly Rev. Floyer has abbreviated to "B. and P." But whatever it may stand for, it was his source for the marriage settlement. As his article is extremely well-detailed with copious documentation, I trust that it was an authentic document, transcribed correctly.

That’s great research, thank you so much Brad! I was wondering about the source for “settlements before marriage dated 10 April 1511” and I think transcription of the original is very strong evidence, especially since chronologically there was only one John Carew of Anthony House at that time

> As per the Hollands of Cowick, HOP has a blog, and in the 2020 post 'The true Queen of the West', Dr. Hannes Kleineke has this to say about the family:
> "The earl of Devon’s retainer, Thomas Holland of Cowick, returned at Exeter in November 1449, 1450 and 1455, came from a gentry family that resided not far outside the city, and whose members had long maintained friendly ties among the leading citizens. Thomas had himself become a freeman of the city in 1445, and by the early 1450s was a regular participant in the annual elections of the civic officers. ... With Attwyll and Danaster out of the picture, the citizens once again turned to their old friends, the Hollands of Cowick, and elected the city recorder, Thomas Holland’s son Roger, to represent them in the Commons."
> https://thehistoryofparliament.wordpress.com/2020/05/05/the-true-queen-of-the-west/

Again, thank you for uncovering this information since it provides a lot more background detail on Thomasine Holland where practically none was available before. Since the Hollands of Cowick were a local gentry family (some of whom participated in Exeter municipal elections) I would imagine they are not descended from the Earls of Kent line, but potentially from an earlier branch of the Holland family.

I noticed that if you click on Roger Holland’s name link in Sir Wymond Carew’s HOP article, a message pops-up saying “This member's details have not been entered yet.” Hopefully more HOP entries will be added in the future since it sounds like their research is ongoing.

As always, your help was greatly appreciated.

All the best!

Andrew

> https://thehistoryofparliament.wordpress.com/2020/05/05/the-true-queen-of-the-west/
>
> It would appear that both Roger Holland of Cowick and his father Thomas Holland of Cowick, will have entries in the HOP 1422-1504 series. Has it been published yet? It's not yet available online at the HOP site.

PS. I just noticed this note at the bottom of the HOP article that you shared:
The Commons 1422-1461 volumes will soon be available for purchase. Follow the History of Parliament on twitter for updates on publication and keep up with the research of our new medieval project, Commons 1461-1504, through the Commons in the Wars of the Roses section of our blog.