måndag 8 augusti 2005 kl. 02:04:46 UTC+2 skrev Raymond S. Wise:
> Don Phillipson wrote:
> > "Raymond S. Wise" <mpl...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:1123312483.3...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > > When "gay" was first used to refer to homosexuals, it *did* have
> > > negative connotations.
> >
> > This seems to be diisconfirmed by such primary
> > texts as Mary Renault's The Charioteer (1953):
> > defensive perhaps but not negative -- at least
> > in Britain where this novel is set.
> "Gay" as applied to sexual matters is a lot older than 1953.
> The following is from a Usenet post I wrote on the subject, which can
> be seen in Google Groups archive
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/9687174c00cd0ad4
> or
> http://tinyurl.com/chhdn
>
> [begin quote from Usenet post]
> "Gay" was used in a sexual sense before it was ever used for
> homosexuals. *The Century Dictionary* of 1895 (
> www.century-dictionary.com ) has for the entry "gay" the sense "5.
> Given to pleasure ; lively ; in a bad sense, given to vicious pleasure
> ; loose ; dissipated." It also has "The gay science" as an obsolete
> term for "literature and poetry, especially amorous poetry, in the
> middle ages." See also the following-referenced Usenet post in which
> the writer quotes the OED:
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=61tv5r%24kru%241%40news.ccit.ari....
> or
>
> http://tinyurl.com/kw8r
> [end quote from Usenet post]
> --
> Raymond S. Wise
> Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
> E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

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On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 06:43:33 -0700 (PDT), Christofer Döss (Spaceflash)
<auroraredaktionen@gmail.com> wrote:

>måndag 8 augusti 2005 kl. 02:04:46 UTC+2 skrev Raymond S. Wise:
>> Don Phillipson wrote:
>> > "Raymond S. Wise" <mpl...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>> > news:1123312483.3...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > > When "gay" was first used to refer to homosexuals, it *did* have
>> > > negative connotations.

I first heard it used in that sense in 1961, and it was used by people
who regarded themselves as gay, and they certainly saw it as positive.

Very few non-gay people knew the term at all.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Steve Hayes:

> I first heard it used in that sense in 1961, and it
> was used by people who regarded themselves as gay,
> and they certainly saw it as positive.

Your sillogism assumes that one always refers to one-
self positively, which is wrong.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments

Den 04.10.2022 kl. 20.01 skrev Anton Shepelev:

> Your sillogism assumes that one always refers to one-
> self positively, which is wrong.

You are assuming that Steve Hayes doesn't have a clue of what he is
talking about when he writes:

and they certainly saw it as positive.

I think he does.

--
Bertel

* Steve Hayes:

> On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 06:43:33 -0700 (PDT), Christofer Döss (Spaceflash)
> <auroraredaktionen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>måndag 8 augusti 2005 kl. 02:04:46 UTC+2 skrev Raymond S. Wise:
>>> Don Phillipson wrote:
>>> > "Raymond S. Wise" <mpl...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>>> > news:1123312483.3...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> >
>>> > > When "gay" was first used to refer to homosexuals, it *did* have
>>> > > negative connotations.
>
> I first heard it used in that sense in 1961, and it was used by people
> who regarded themselves as gay, and they certainly saw it as positive.
>
> Very few non-gay people knew the term at all.

From what I heard, at least some gay people used it as a code word in
the early days, so they could talk about the subject in public without
raising suspicions.

--
Do not they speak false English ... that doth not speak thou to one,
and what ever he be, Father, Mother, King, or Judge, is he not a
Novice, and Unmannerly, and an Ideot, and a Fool, that speaks Your
to one, which is not to be spoken to a singular, but to many?
-- George Fox (1660)

On 05-Oct-22 0:33, Quinn C wrote:
> * Steve Hayes:
>
>> On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 06:43:33 -0700 (PDT), Christofer Döss (Spaceflash)
>> <auroraredaktionen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> måndag 8 augusti 2005 kl. 02:04:46 UTC+2 skrev Raymond S. Wise:
>>>> Don Phillipson wrote:
>>>>> "Raymond S. Wise" <mpl...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:1123312483.3...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>> When "gay" was first used to refer to homosexuals, it *did* have
>>>>>> negative connotations.
>>
>> I first heard it used in that sense in 1961, and it was used by people
>> who regarded themselves as gay, and they certainly saw it as positive.
>>
>> Very few non-gay people knew the term at all.
>
> From what I heard, at least some gay people used it as a code word in
> the early days, so they could talk about the subject in public without
> raising suspicions.
>
Segue into Polari - at least in the UK (and overseas).

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/stories/polari-and-hidden-history-of-gay-seafarers

--
Sam Plusnet

On 10/4/2022 2:01 PM, Anton Shepelev wrote:
> Steve Hayes:

>> I first heard it used in that sense in 1961, and it was used by
>> people who regarded themselves as gay, and they certainly saw it
>> as positive.

> Your sillogism assumes that one always refers to one- self
> positively, which is wrong.

And sylly?

Bertel Lund Hansen:
> Anton Shepelev:
> > Steve Hayes:
> >
> > > I first heard it used in that sense in 1961, and
> > > it was used by people who regarded themselves as
> > > gay, and they certainly saw it as positive.
> >
> > Your sillogism assumes that one always refers to
> > one- self positively, which is wrong.
>
> You are assuming that Steve Hayes doesn't have a
> clue of what he is talking about when he writes:
>
> and they certainly saw it as positive.
>
> I think he does.

I misinterpreted Steve's last `and' as `therefore'.
White that off to the common autumnal cold with which
I currently down. Yesterday it was at its peak but is
now rolling down the outer slope towards conva-
lescense.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments

On Tue, 4 Oct 2022 19:33:13 -0400, Quinn C
<lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Steve Hayes:
>> I first heard it used in that sense in 1961, and it was used by people
>> who regarded themselves as gay, and they certainly saw it as positive.
>>
>> Very few non-gay people knew the term at all.
>
>From what I heard, at least some gay people used it as a code word in
>the early days, so they could talk about the subject in public without
>raising suspicions.

In the 1960s, pre-internet, people communicated a lot through personal
ads in newspapers, and there were quite a lot of such personal ads
along the line of "gay bachelor looking for friendship".

Those they were looking for knew what they meant, and those they were
not looking for didn't.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

On Mon, 03 Oct 2022 13:22:00 +0200, Steve Hayes
<hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> I first heard it used in that sense in 1961, and it was used by people
> who regarded themselves as gay, and they certainly saw it as positive.

> Very few non-gay people knew the term at all.

I first became aware of the usage in a 1970s "Psychology Today"
article (or more likely letter-to-the-editor) in which there raged a
battle over the meaning of the word. (I recall something about
tickling babies on the tummy to see if that would make them "gay".)
While the cant use of the word may go way back, it certainly didn't
brush against the mainstream much before that as is evidenced by the
name of the US bomber that nuked Hiroshima in 1945. (The plane was
named after the pilot's mother.) Had the US military even the
slightest inkling of what the word meant to "those people" you may be
sure that some other aircraft would have been chosen instead.

--
Bob
Sidera errantia quibus procella tenebrarum in aeternum servata est

On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 17:25:40 +0300, Opinicus
<gezgin@spamcop.net.which.is.not.quite.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 03 Oct 2022 13:22:00 +0200, Steve Hayes
><hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
>> I first heard it used in that sense in 1961, and it was used by people
>> who regarded themselves as gay, and they certainly saw it as positive.
>
>> Very few non-gay people knew the term at all.
>
>I first became aware of the usage in a 1970s "Psychology Today"
>article (or more likely letter-to-the-editor) in which there raged a
>battle over the meaning of the word. (I recall something about
>tickling babies on the tummy to see if that would make them "gay".)
>While the cant use of the word may go way back, it certainly didn't
>brush against the mainstream much before that as is evidenced by the
>name of the US bomber that nuked Hiroshima in 1945. (The plane was
>named after the pilot's mother.) Had the US military even the
>slightest inkling of what the word meant to "those people" you may be
>sure that some other aircraft would have been chosen instead.

I don't think that the US Military would have had any objections to
the name even if there was awareness of the usage of "gay" in the
sense of being homosexual.

The pilot of the "Enola Gay" - Col Paul Tibbets - chose the name of
the aircraft and named it after his mother: Enola Gay Tibbets. It
has always been the custom of the military to allow the pilot or the
crew to choose the plane's nickname.

"Gay", and "Gaye", have been somewhat common as the first or middle
name of women for many years.

This chart goes back to only 1950, but you can see that Gay/Gaye was a
a popular name until about the early 1960s when it started to decline
in popularity.

https://babynames.com/name/gay

--

Tony Cooper - Orlando Florida

I read and post to this group as a form of entertainment.

On 10 Oct 2022, Tony Cooper wrote

> On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 17:25:40 +0300, Opinicus
><gezgin@spamcop.net.which.is.not.quite.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 03 Oct 2022 13:22:00 +0200, Steve Hayes
>> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I first heard it used in that sense in 1961, and it was used by
>>> people who regarded themselves as gay, and they certainly saw it
>>> as positive.
>>
>>> Very few non-gay people knew the term at all.
>>
>> I first became aware of the usage in a 1970s "Psychology Today"
>> article (or more likely letter-to-the-editor) in which there
>> raged a battle over the meaning of the word. (I recall something
>> about tickling babies on the tummy to see if that would make them
>> "gay".) While the cant use of the word may go way back, it
>> certainly didn't brush against the mainstream much before that as
>> is evidenced by the name of the US bomber that nuked Hiroshima in
>> 1945. (The plane was named after the pilot's mother.) Had the US
>> military even the slightest inkling of what the word meant to
>> "those people" you may be sure that some other aircraft would
>> have been chosen instead.
>
> I don't think that the US Military would have had any objections
> to the name even if there was awareness of the usage of "gay" in
> the sense of being homosexual.
>
> The pilot of the "Enola Gay" - Col Paul Tibbets - chose the name
> of the aircraft and named it after his mother: Enola Gay Tibbets.
> It has always been the custom of the military to allow the pilot
> or the crew to choose the plane's nickname.
>
> "Gay", and "Gaye", have been somewhat common as the first or
> middle name of women for many years.

And for men -- there was an NHL player in the 1940s and 1950s named
"Gaye Stewart". (I was at grad school in the 1970s with his son.)

I'd always assumed that it was short for "Gaylord", but a quick
google says his full name was "James Gaye Stewart".

>
> This chart goes back to only 1950, but you can see that Gay/Gaye
> was a a popular name until about the early 1960s when it started
> to decline in popularity.
>
> https://babynames.com/name/gay

On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 17:25:40 +0300
Opinicus <gezgin@spamcop.net.which.is.not.quite.invalid> wrote:

> On Mon, 03 Oct 2022 13:22:00 +0200, Steve Hayes
> <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>
> > I first heard it used in that sense in 1961, and it was used by people
> > who regarded themselves as gay, and they certainly saw it as positive.
>
> > Very few non-gay people knew the term at all.
>
> I first became aware of the usage in a 1970s "Psychology Today"
> article (or more likely letter-to-the-editor) in which there raged a
> battle over the meaning of the word. (I recall something about
> tickling babies on the tummy to see if that would make them "gay".)
> While the cant use of the word may go way back, it certainly didn't
> brush against the mainstream much before that as is evidenced by the
> name of the US bomber that nuked Hiroshima in 1945. (The plane was
> named after the pilot's mother.) Had the US military even the
> slightest inkling of what the word meant to "those people" you may be
> sure that some other aircraft would have been chosen instead.
>
I don't think it was used as a codeword until way after Hanna Barbera (sp?)
mentioned that the Flintstones had a 'gay old time'.

Yabba, Dabba, and indeed Doo!

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 18:39:07 +0100, "Kerr-Mudd, John"
<admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> I don't think it was used as a codeword until way after Hanna Barbera (sp?)
> mentioned that the Flintstones had a 'gay old time'.
VERY good point. I'd forgotten that.

--
Bob
The people your parents warned you about

★★★★★★★★★★

Opinicus kirjutas Kolmapäev, 12. oktoober 2022 kl 07:16:19 UTC+3:
> On Mon, 10 Oct 2022 18:39:07 +0100, "Kerr-Mudd, John"
> <ad...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
> > I don't think it was used as a codeword until way after Hanna Barbera (sp?)
> > mentioned that the Flintstones had a 'gay old time'.
> VERY good point. I'd forgotten that.
>
> --
> Bob
> The people your parents warned you about