A short version of an early 16th-century marriage contract I'm looking at cites enfoeffment of several people who aren't the groom. I'd been thinking that a marriage contract was primarily an agreement between the groom/couple and the bride's father, re: lands that would come w/bride. What is the role of the enfoeffed men named? What do they get from whom, what is their range of probable relationships with the groom, what do they do...what is their interest in the deal? Thank you. Appreciate insight as I learn.

On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 14:29:04 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> A short version of an early 16th-century marriage contract I'm looking at cites enfoeffment of several people who aren't the groom. I'd been thinking that a marriage contract was primarily an agreement between the groom/couple and the bride's father, re: lands that would come w/bride. What is the role of the enfoeffed men named? What do they get from whom, what is their range of probable relationships with the groom, what do they do...what is their interest in the deal? Thank you. Appreciate insight as I learn.

The University of Nottingham has some good web pages on things like this:

https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/researchguidance/deedsindepth/freehold/feoffment.aspx

Chris

On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 9:54:33 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 14:29:04 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > A short version of an early 16th-century marriage contract I'm looking at cites enfoeffment of several people who aren't the groom. I'd been thinking that a marriage contract was primarily an agreement between the groom/couple and the bride's father, re: lands that would come w/bride. What is the role of the enfoeffed men named? What do they get from whom, what is their range of probable relationships with the groom, what do they do...what is their interest in the deal? Thank you. Appreciate insight as I learn.
> The University of Nottingham has some good web pages on things like this:
>
> https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/researchguidance/deedsindepth/freehold/feoffment.aspx
>
> Chris
Chris, you're the best. This is so helpful, and I see there are many more instructive pages at University of Nottingham.

Question: If the short form of the marriage contract I've seen cites the names of several foeffees, could the full version perhaps contain more detail, e.g., specifics of which lands in the generally-cited geographic areas were being granted/sold to which man? Or, might there be separate documents ("deeds," as mentioned on the U of Notts page) pertaining to a transaction with each foeffee? (I'm trying to follow the chain of conveyance of specific lands among specific parties to support the supposed relationship between the parties.)

On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 17:03:12 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 9:54:33 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 14:29:04 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > > A short version of an early 16th-century marriage contract I'm looking at cites enfoeffment of several people who aren't the groom. I'd been thinking that a marriage contract was primarily an agreement between the groom/couple and the bride's father, re: lands that would come w/bride. What is the role of the enfoeffed men named? What do they get from whom, what is their range of probable relationships with the groom, what do they do...what is their interest in the deal? Thank you. Appreciate insight as I learn.
> > The University of Nottingham has some good web pages on things like this:
> >
> > https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/researchguidance/deedsindepth/freehold/feoffment.aspx
> >
> > Chris
> Chris, you're the best. This is so helpful, and I see there are many more instructive pages at University of Nottingham.
>
> Question: If the short form of the marriage contract I've seen cites the names of several foeffees, could the full version perhaps contain more detail, e.g., specifics of which lands in the generally-cited geographic areas were being granted/sold to which man? Or, might there be separate documents ("deeds," as mentioned on the U of Notts page) pertaining to a transaction with each foeffee? (I'm trying to follow the chain of conveyance of specific lands among specific parties to support the supposed relationship between the parties.)

That I can't answer. Other members of this group will have a lot more experience here.

Hmm, I'm wondering whether Feet of Fines may help here?

https://lawlibguides.usc.edu/c.php?g=777451&p=5611725%23%3a%7e%3atext%3dFeet+of+Fines+A+fine+was+a+final%2cinstrument+for+the+transfer+of+land+between+freeholders.&msclkid=b2e46ef0b69c11ecab3459f1755ae2fe

Otherwise, have you contacted the record office that provided the abstract? Their staff can be hugely helpful, especially if they'r straight from university and hungry for some resaerch action!!

Chris

On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 2:06:04 PM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 17:03:12 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 9:54:33 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 14:29:04 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > > > A short version of an early 16th-century marriage contract I'm looking at cites enfoeffment of several people who aren't the groom. I'd been thinking that a marriage contract was primarily an agreement between the groom/couple and the bride's father, re: lands that would come w/bride. What is the role of the enfoeffed men named? What do they get from whom, what is their range of probable relationships with the groom, what do they do...what is their interest in the deal? Thank you. Appreciate insight as I learn.
> > > The University of Nottingham has some good web pages on things like this:
> > >
> > > https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/researchguidance/deedsindepth/freehold/feoffment.aspx
> > >
> > > Chris
> > Chris, you're the best. This is so helpful, and I see there are many more instructive pages at University of Nottingham.
> >
> > Question: If the short form of the marriage contract I've seen cites the names of several foeffees, could the full version perhaps contain more detail, e.g., specifics of which lands in the generally-cited geographic areas were being granted/sold to which man? Or, might there be separate documents ("deeds," as mentioned on the U of Notts page) pertaining to a transaction with each foeffee? (I'm trying to follow the chain of conveyance of specific lands among specific parties to support the supposed relationship between the parties.)
> That I can't answer. Other members of this group will have a lot more experience here.
>
> Hmm, I'm wondering whether Feet of Fines may help here?
>
> https://lawlibguides.usc.edu/c.php?g=777451&p=5611725%23%3a%7e%3atext%3dFeet+of+Fines+A+fine+was+a+final%2cinstrument+for+the+transfer+of+land+between+freeholders.&msclkid=b2e46ef0b69c11ecab3459f1755ae2fe
>
> Otherwise, have you contacted the record office that provided the abstract? Their staff can be hugely helpful, especially if they'r straight from university and hungry for some resaerch action!!
>
> Chris
Chris, will look at Feet of Fines. Meantime, the abbreviated contract material I have is here, below the pedigree:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Visitations_of_the_County_of_Nottingham/U3KODwAAQBAJ?q=langton+hall,+nott&gbpv=1#f=false

I'm so hoping the full version of contract -- in a College of Arms Vincent mss -- will have enough additional detail to help me with my question. And wasn't sure if foeffments appearing in a marriage contract would result in other documents being created, addressing particulars of each foeffee's land/role, etc. I'm certain that professional genealogists have looked at all this re: Edward "pilgrim" FitzRandolph's great- and great-great grandfathers; I want to take a look myself because I can't find any comprehensive, footnoted account of what has already been gathered, AND just in case the foeffment details might connect to subsequent land conveyances or suits that would help buttress the case for some FitzRandolph relationships. Might be exercise in futility, but it's fun. And someone out there must be ready for some research action!

On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 6:51:12 PM UTC-4, Girl57 wrote:
> On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 2:06:04 PM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 17:03:12 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 9:54:33 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 14:29:04 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > > > > A short version of an early 16th-century marriage contract I'm looking at cites enfoeffment of several people who aren't the groom. I'd been thinking that a marriage contract was primarily an agreement between the groom/couple and the bride's father, re: lands that would come w/bride. What is the role of the enfoeffed men named? What do they get from whom, what is their range of probable relationships with the groom, what do they do...what is their interest in the deal? Thank you. Appreciate insight as I learn..
> > > > The University of Nottingham has some good web pages on things like this:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/researchguidance/deedsindepth/freehold/feoffment.aspx
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > Chris, you're the best. This is so helpful, and I see there are many more instructive pages at University of Nottingham.
> > >
> > > Question: If the short form of the marriage contract I've seen cites the names of several foeffees, could the full version perhaps contain more detail, e.g., specifics of which lands in the generally-cited geographic areas were being granted/sold to which man? Or, might there be separate documents ("deeds," as mentioned on the U of Notts page) pertaining to a transaction with each foeffee? (I'm trying to follow the chain of conveyance of specific lands among specific parties to support the supposed relationship between the parties.)
> > That I can't answer. Other members of this group will have a lot more experience here.
> >
> > Hmm, I'm wondering whether Feet of Fines may help here?
> >
> > https://lawlibguides.usc.edu/c.php?g=777451&p=5611725%23%3a%7e%3atext%3dFeet+of+Fines+A+fine+was+a+final%2cinstrument+for+the+transfer+of+land+between+freeholders.&msclkid=b2e46ef0b69c11ecab3459f1755ae2fe
> >
> > Otherwise, have you contacted the record office that provided the abstract? Their staff can be hugely helpful, especially if they'r straight from university and hungry for some resaerch action!!
> >
> > Chris
> Chris, will look at Feet of Fines. Meantime, the abbreviated contract material I have is here, below the pedigree:
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Visitations_of_the_County_of_Nottingham/U3KODwAAQBAJ?q=langton+hall,+nott&gbpv=1#f=false
>
> I'm so hoping the full version of contract -- in a College of Arms Vincent mss -- will have enough additional detail to help me with my question. And wasn't sure if foeffments appearing in a marriage contract would result in other documents being created, addressing particulars of each foeffee's land/role, etc. I'm certain that professional genealogists have looked at all this re: Edward "pilgrim" FitzRandolph's great- and great-great grandfathers; I want to take a look myself because I can't find any comprehensive, footnoted account of what has already been gathered, AND just in case the foeffment details might connect to subsequent land conveyances or suits that would help buttress the case for some FitzRandolph relationships. Might be exercise in futility, but it's fun. And someone out there must be ready for some research action!
Page 187 of Visitations...link above. Fitz-Randolfe pedigree.

On Friday, 8 April 2022 at 03:35:45 UTC+2, Girl57 wrote:
> On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 6:51:12 PM UTC-4, Girl57 wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 2:06:04 PM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 17:03:12 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 9:54:33 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 14:29:04 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > > > > > A short version of an early 16th-century marriage contract I'm looking at cites enfoeffment of several people who aren't the groom. I'd been thinking that a marriage contract was primarily an agreement between the groom/couple and the bride's father, re: lands that would come w/bride. What is the role of the enfoeffed men named? What do they get from whom, what is their range of probable relationships with the groom, what do they do....what is their interest in the deal? Thank you. Appreciate insight as I learn.
> > > > > The University of Nottingham has some good web pages on things like this:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/researchguidance/deedsindepth/freehold/feoffment.aspx
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > Chris, you're the best. This is so helpful, and I see there are many more instructive pages at University of Nottingham.
> > > >
> > > > Question: If the short form of the marriage contract I've seen cites the names of several foeffees, could the full version perhaps contain more detail, e.g., specifics of which lands in the generally-cited geographic areas were being granted/sold to which man? Or, might there be separate documents ("deeds," as mentioned on the U of Notts page) pertaining to a transaction with each foeffee? (I'm trying to follow the chain of conveyance of specific lands among specific parties to support the supposed relationship between the parties.)
> > > That I can't answer. Other members of this group will have a lot more experience here.
> > >
> > > Hmm, I'm wondering whether Feet of Fines may help here?
> > >
> > > https://lawlibguides.usc.edu/c.php?g=777451&p=5611725%23%3a%7e%3atext%3dFeet+of+Fines+A+fine+was+a+final%2cinstrument+for+the+transfer+of+land+between+freeholders.&msclkid=b2e46ef0b69c11ecab3459f1755ae2fe
> > >
> > > Otherwise, have you contacted the record office that provided the abstract? Their staff can be hugely helpful, especially if they'r straight from university and hungry for some resaerch action!!
> > >
> > > Chris
> > Chris, will look at Feet of Fines. Meantime, the abbreviated contract material I have is here, below the pedigree:
> >
> > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Visitations_of_the_County_of_Nottingham/U3KODwAAQBAJ?q=langton+hall,+nott&gbpv=1#f=false
> >
> > I'm so hoping the full version of contract -- in a College of Arms Vincent mss -- will have enough additional detail to help me with my question. And wasn't sure if foeffments appearing in a marriage contract would result in other documents being created, addressing particulars of each foeffee's land/role, etc. I'm certain that professional genealogists have looked at all this re: Edward "pilgrim" FitzRandolph's great- and great-great grandfathers; I want to take a look myself because I can't find any comprehensive, footnoted account of what has already been gathered, AND just in case the foeffment details might connect to subsequent land conveyances or suits that would help buttress the case for some FitzRandolph relationships. Might be exercise in futility, but it's fun. And someone out there must be ready for some research action!
> Page 187 of Visitations...link above. Fitz-Randolfe pedigree.

A foeffment to uses was fairly common in medieval marraige contracts. Rather than the girl bringing land directly into the marriage from her father, and thus then at the mercy of her husband to dispose of as he wished, it was instead entrusted to feoffees who acted as trustees. The terms of the trust might be that the ownership of the land remained with the trustees, but the use of that land was then granted to the couple, with the use then passing to the legitimate male heirs of the couple, and further terms might include what should happen to the land in the case of divorce, separation, death, and no male hiers, etc. It often included how the trustees should be succeeded upon the death or relinquishment of any of them. Feets of Fines, Wills and IPMs are the usual route for following up on what subsequently happended to the lands.

On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 12:58:42 PM UTC-4, Wibs wrote:
> On Friday, 8 April 2022 at 03:35:45 UTC+2, Girl57 wrote:
> > On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 6:51:12 PM UTC-4, Girl57 wrote:
> > > On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 2:06:04 PM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 17:03:12 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, April 7, 2022 at 9:54:33 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, 7 April 2022 at 14:29:04 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > > > > > > A short version of an early 16th-century marriage contract I'm looking at cites enfoeffment of several people who aren't the groom. I'd been thinking that a marriage contract was primarily an agreement between the groom/couple and the bride's father, re: lands that would come w/bride. What is the role of the enfoeffed men named? What do they get from whom, what is their range of probable relationships with the groom, what do they do....what is their interest in the deal? Thank you. Appreciate insight as I learn.
> > > > > > The University of Nottingham has some good web pages on things like this:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/researchguidance/deedsindepth/freehold/feoffment.aspx
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Chris
> > > > > Chris, you're the best. This is so helpful, and I see there are many more instructive pages at University of Nottingham.
> > > > >
> > > > > Question: If the short form of the marriage contract I've seen cites the names of several foeffees, could the full version perhaps contain more detail, e.g., specifics of which lands in the generally-cited geographic areas were being granted/sold to which man? Or, might there be separate documents ("deeds," as mentioned on the U of Notts page) pertaining to a transaction with each foeffee? (I'm trying to follow the chain of conveyance of specific lands among specific parties to support the supposed relationship between the parties.)
> > > > That I can't answer. Other members of this group will have a lot more experience here.
> > > >
> > > > Hmm, I'm wondering whether Feet of Fines may help here?
> > > >
> > > > https://lawlibguides.usc.edu/c.php?g=777451&p=5611725%23%3a%7e%3atext%3dFeet+of+Fines+A+fine+was+a+final%2cinstrument+for+the+transfer+of+land+between+freeholders.&msclkid=b2e46ef0b69c11ecab3459f1755ae2fe
> > > >
> > > > Otherwise, have you contacted the record office that provided the abstract? Their staff can be hugely helpful, especially if they'r straight from university and hungry for some resaerch action!!
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > Chris, will look at Feet of Fines. Meantime, the abbreviated contract material I have is here, below the pedigree:
> > >
> > > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Visitations_of_the_County_of_Nottingham/U3KODwAAQBAJ?q=langton+hall,+nott&gbpv=1#f=false
> > >
> > > I'm so hoping the full version of contract -- in a College of Arms Vincent mss -- will have enough additional detail to help me with my question.. And wasn't sure if foeffments appearing in a marriage contract would result in other documents being created, addressing particulars of each foeffee's land/role, etc. I'm certain that professional genealogists have looked at all this re: Edward "pilgrim" FitzRandolph's great- and great-great grandfathers; I want to take a look myself because I can't find any comprehensive, footnoted account of what has already been gathered, AND just in case the foeffment details might connect to subsequent land conveyances or suits that would help buttress the case for some FitzRandolph relationships. Might be exercise in futility, but it's fun. And someone out there must be ready for some research action!
> > Page 187 of Visitations...link above. Fitz-Randolfe pedigree.
> A foeffment to uses was fairly common in medieval marraige contracts. Rather than the girl bringing land directly into the marriage from her father, and thus then at the mercy of her husband to dispose of as he wished, it was instead entrusted to feoffees who acted as trustees. The terms of the trust might be that the ownership of the land remained with the trustees, but the use of that land was then granted to the couple, with the use then passing to the legitimate male heirs of the couple, and further terms might include what should happen to the land in the case of divorce, separation, death, and no male hiers, etc. It often included how the trustees should be succeeded upon the death or relinquishment of any of them. Feets of Fines, Wills and IPMs are the usual route for following up on what subsequently happended to the lands.
Wibs, this is so helpful. Will look into Feets of Fines, wills, IPMs. Also wondering where a land transaction subsequent to marriage contract might fit in.

I'm awaiting a copy of the full 1514 marriage contract of Christopher FitzRandolph and Joan Langton, hoping it will spell out some things. Is it possible it may even detail which lands in which places were put in care of individual foeffees? See general reference I have so far, here (p. 296, b, paragraph 2, and c):

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Antiquities_of_Nottinghamshire/7HtbAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Langton

If I can find details of the respective land distributions among foeffees, I'm hoping I can use a subsequent indenture (excerpt below) to help support a theory that John FitzRandolph, one of the foeffees, was the cousin or father of the groom.

Re: that possible relationship, I'm curious about a 1518 land grant Christopher and Joan made to another party...about four years after the contract. I'm waiting for a copy of it. Part of the National Archives content description of the indenture reads:

"...have granted to [name]...all their lands, etc. in [areas]...with liberty to buy them back for [amount] on the coming of age of any heir of their bodies."

*Would this stipulation maybe imply that the subject land had some special meaning for the groom or couple? Maybe it had been passed to the groom by foeffee John FitzRandolph while John was living, or willed to Christopher by a deceased John (with Chris perhaps being the designated successor to trustee John)? If yes, is it likely that the groom was the son or cousin of John? If yes to this, the groom perhaps wanted this particular land to belong someday to one of his legitimate heirs, to keep it in the family? These "if/thens" likely won't prove a specific relationship, but they might serve as further support for theorized connection.

*Also wonder, in indenture, about word "...have granted" rather than "...have sold." Does this mean Christopher and Joan are giving the land for the recipient's use or sub-lease for an unspecified period...but had agreed on a buyback price if one of the couple's legitimate heirs reached majority? Would this buyback agreement also mean that the recipient couldn't grant or sell the land to anyone else? And would a grant, instead of a sale, maybe signal that the recipient was a relative of one of the couple, making a seemingly less formal agreement acceptable?

Thanks, Wibs, if you have time to read this. I am still unfamiliar with language conventions and land transactions of the period and don't know what significance they may carry. Any insight appreciated!