On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 11:46:10 AM UTC-4, Ian Goddard wrote:
> On 27/03/2022 14:27, Girl57 wrote:
> > I haven't yet learned about how medieval and early modern English families traveled for visiting and business.
> Here's one I came across yesterday. It would be fair to say the Greens
> became a local gentry family in the Holmfirth area but in the C13th they
> were definitely villeins. We find them in the 1st volume of the
> Wakefield manorial rolls (archive.org).
>
> In the 1280s (p 183) we discover that Richard del Grene nevertheless had
> a servant.
>
> In the 1290s (p242) it's confirmed that he was a villein and that he had
> bought property in Pontefract, Barnsley and Skelmanthorpe. We don't
> know exactly where he was living but it may well have been at
> Greenhouse, unlabelled but pointed to by the arrow here:
> https://streetmap.co.uk/map?x=411765&y=405547&z=115&sv=411765,405547&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map&searchp=ids&dn=784&ax=411765&ay=405547&lm=0
> You can zoom out to find the relationship to the places mentioned.
>
> Leaving aside the fact that a villein could buy what would almost
> certainly have been free property in his manorial lord's rival's
> territory Pontefract would have been about 30 miles distant, Barnsley a
> little over half that and Skelly about half that to Barnsley.
>
> He was subsequently (p252) required to find pledges that he would not
> remove his goods out of the manor. He found pledges (p257) and his
> stock is listed at 3 oxen, 3 cows, 24 sheep & 10 quarters of oats (the
> principle grain in the area).
>
> Ian
Ian, thank you. This is enormously helpful. As an American who never studied medieval history, even becoming familiar with entry-level terminology from the periods being worked on here is proving challenging. The PBS program sounds fantastic.

I also can't wait to wade into some manorial rolls, which I haven't tried at all yet. I'll follow links you sent.

It sounds like the Greens did pretty well! I think my ancestral family was moving in the opposite direction -- from lords/knights of Spennithorne to gentlemen (maybe) in Notts and Derby, and then to one of their own venturing to the colonies.

You worked in Belfast? I have ancestors (late 18th-century) who lived in a County Down hamlet called Woodgrange, close to Downpatrick and not too far from Belfast. A visit there is on my bucket list.

On Monday, 4 April 2022 at 19:06:05 UTC+1, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> On Sunday, 27 March 2022 at 14:27:32 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > I haven't yet learned about how medieval and early modern English families traveled for visiting and business. Was it typical for people to go 100 miles or more, for example, to visit family? Was it a big deal and did it take a lot of prep to travel from North Yorkshire to London? Was it usual for parents to make marriage contracts with a son or daughter's prospective spouse who lived a "long" way away? For a man to acquire an advowson in another shire?
> >
> > How did people communicate in those times...by letter? How did word of a death or another important event happen quickly? How did people who lived some distance from each other work on the details of a marriage contract, for example?
> I think you have a problem here with the Medieval/Early Modern generalisations. Historians have 'separated' the two 'periods' because they have distinct differences. What's a fair description for 1400 is not necessarily applicable to 1500, 1600, or 1700. This is a 'medieval' group and so you are going to get a bias towards the early years (for instance, in what the term 'yeoman' means). Ian Goddard is unusual in that he comes originally from an Early Modern research experience and has moved medieval over the last 20 years (I hope, Ian, you don't mind me saying that! And, if you disagree, I apologise in advance). I've rather stuck to my guns in being an Early Modern specialist - my uni specialisations in The Crusades and The Italian Renaissance aren't exactly helpful here!
>
> To give you a fact. My ancestor, Daniel Dickinson, was employed as a courier between Penrith in the north of England and London in the 1660s. The journey took him three days, using a postal system for exchange of horses that wasn't available 20 years earlier.
>
> https://archiveweb.cumbria.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=BDHJ%2f220%2f1%2f14&pos=1
>
> Chris

There was probably more travelling than you imagine. Pre-Reformation, there were links between religious houses and by pilgrimage (Chaucer's prologue to the Canterbury Tales give a flavour). Universities provided further population mix, as did the London guilds (who had interests everwhere). There were long established routes dating back to the Romans, both inland and local. Local activity would have centered on a nearby market town, which everyone would have used; and maybe a nearby bigger enterprise, like the Champagne Fairs.. Property inheritance created quite a patchwork. International companies operated, especially in commodity trading (wool, grain, timber, etc.), long before Europeans went out to the New World. Cathedral building and mining needed a skilled internaiional work force and management (like the Fuggers and Hochstetters). Wars required international financing as well as soldiers and sailors.

At a more local level, certain trades required not only specialist skills but capital as well. Smithery and milling especially. At the end of your apprenticeship, you would be prepared to travel quite far to find a position and a mill or forge all of your own.

Daniel Dickinson's father, William, was steward to the Lamplugh family of Lamplugh Hall in Lamplugh in Cumberland . As well as travelling off with his master to do battle at Marston Moor in Yorkshire, a set of accounts have survided that detail taking his 'Mistress' [ie Mrs Lamplugh] to visit her family in County Durham. They travelled with her maid and two men. I get the impression that one of the men was sent ahead to find accommodation, with the other remaining as a guard. The 'holiday' lasted about two weeks, with five days in all at their destination. Overnight they used either inns or private houses.

Chris

On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 3:57:35 PM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> On Monday, 4 April 2022 at 19:06:05 UTC+1, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > On Sunday, 27 March 2022 at 14:27:32 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > > I haven't yet learned about how medieval and early modern English families traveled for visiting and business. Was it typical for people to go 100 miles or more, for example, to visit family? Was it a big deal and did it take a lot of prep to travel from North Yorkshire to London? Was it usual for parents to make marriage contracts with a son or daughter's prospective spouse who lived a "long" way away? For a man to acquire an advowson in another shire?
> > >
> > > How did people communicate in those times...by letter? How did word of a death or another important event happen quickly? How did people who lived some distance from each other work on the details of a marriage contract, for example?
> > I think you have a problem here with the Medieval/Early Modern generalisations. Historians have 'separated' the two 'periods' because they have distinct differences. What's a fair description for 1400 is not necessarily applicable to 1500, 1600, or 1700. This is a 'medieval' group and so you are going to get a bias towards the early years (for instance, in what the term 'yeoman' means). Ian Goddard is unusual in that he comes originally from an Early Modern research experience and has moved medieval over the last 20 years (I hope, Ian, you don't mind me saying that! And, if you disagree, I apologise in advance). I've rather stuck to my guns in being an Early Modern specialist - my uni specialisations in The Crusades and The Italian Renaissance aren't exactly helpful here!
> >
> > To give you a fact. My ancestor, Daniel Dickinson, was employed as a courier between Penrith in the north of England and London in the 1660s. The journey took him three days, using a postal system for exchange of horses that wasn't available 20 years earlier.
> >
> > https://archiveweb.cumbria.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=BDHJ%2f220%2f1%2f14&pos=1
> >
> > Chris
> There was probably more travelling than you imagine. Pre-Reformation, there were links between religious houses and by pilgrimage (Chaucer's prologue to the Canterbury Tales give a flavour). Universities provided further population mix, as did the London guilds (who had interests everwhere). There were long established routes dating back to the Romans, both inland and local. Local activity would have centered on a nearby market town, which everyone would have used; and maybe a nearby bigger enterprise, like the Champagne Fairs.. Property inheritance created quite a patchwork. International companies operated, especially in commodity trading (wool, grain, timber, etc.), long before Europeans went out to the New World. Cathedral building and mining needed a skilled internaiional work force and management (like the Fuggers and Hochstetters). Wars required international financing as well as soldiers and sailors.
>
> At a more local level, certain trades required not only specialist skills but capital as well. Smithery and milling especially. At the end of your apprenticeship, you would be prepared to travel quite far to find a position and a mill or forge all of your own.
>
> Daniel Dickinson's father, William, was steward to the Lamplugh family of Lamplugh Hall in Lamplugh in Cumberland . As well as travelling off with his master to do battle at Marston Moor in Yorkshire, a set of accounts have survided that detail taking his 'Mistress' [ie Mrs Lamplugh] to visit her family in County Durham. They travelled with her maid and two men. I get the impression that one of the men was sent ahead to find accommodation, with the other remaining as a guard. The 'holiday' lasted about two weeks, with five days in all at their destination. Overnight they used either inns or private houses.
>
> Chris
Chris, This is exactly the kind of context I need...and what great "color." Thank you so much. It must have been thrilling for you to discover these details about William. It just occurred to me that I need to return to the Canterbury Tales! The thing that strikes me is how much activity, interaction, and travel there were...This probably sounds silly to historians and others educated in these periods of history...but somehow it's easy to imagine things being much more spare, and even primitive, than they were.

And of course cathedral-building required all kinds of skills beyond local. I live in United States, and I remember the first time I saw Washington Cathedral, in D.C....A thing of such wonder. I decided I had to work there during college and did...Exploring all the nooks and crannies and almost feeling like it was my house. We just don't HAVE that stuff here, for the most part, as Europeans do!! I love to imagine the market towns and fairs. I have read the will of one ancestor who lived in Cambridge, and in it he cites his stalls at Stourbridge/Sturbridge Fair.

Thank you again, Chris, for your time. Hoping to get better up to speed with my (old) new Oxford Companion to Family and Local History...It covers basics, including definitions, that will really help, too.

On Friday, 8 April 2022 at 13:37:05 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 3:57:35 PM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > On Monday, 4 April 2022 at 19:06:05 UTC+1, Chris Dickinson wrote:
> > > On Sunday, 27 March 2022 at 14:27:32 UTC+1, Girl57 wrote:
> > > > I haven't yet learned about how medieval and early modern English families traveled for visiting and business. Was it typical for people to go 100 miles or more, for example, to visit family? Was it a big deal and did it take a lot of prep to travel from North Yorkshire to London? Was it usual for parents to make marriage contracts with a son or daughter's prospective spouse who lived a "long" way away? For a man to acquire an advowson in another shire?
> > > >
> > > > How did people communicate in those times...by letter? How did word of a death or another important event happen quickly? How did people who lived some distance from each other work on the details of a marriage contract, for example?
> > > I think you have a problem here with the Medieval/Early Modern generalisations. Historians have 'separated' the two 'periods' because they have distinct differences. What's a fair description for 1400 is not necessarily applicable to 1500, 1600, or 1700. This is a 'medieval' group and so you are going to get a bias towards the early years (for instance, in what the term 'yeoman' means). Ian Goddard is unusual in that he comes originally from an Early Modern research experience and has moved medieval over the last 20 years (I hope, Ian, you don't mind me saying that! And, if you disagree, I apologise in advance). I've rather stuck to my guns in being an Early Modern specialist - my uni specialisations in The Crusades and The Italian Renaissance aren't exactly helpful here!
> > >
> > > To give you a fact. My ancestor, Daniel Dickinson, was employed as a courier between Penrith in the north of England and London in the 1660s. The journey took him three days, using a postal system for exchange of horses that wasn't available 20 years earlier.
> > >
> > > https://archiveweb.cumbria.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView..Catalog&id=BDHJ%2f220%2f1%2f14&pos=1
> > >
> > > Chris
> > There was probably more travelling than you imagine. Pre-Reformation, there were links between religious houses and by pilgrimage (Chaucer's prologue to the Canterbury Tales give a flavour). Universities provided further population mix, as did the London guilds (who had interests everwhere). There were long established routes dating back to the Romans, both inland and local. Local activity would have centered on a nearby market town, which everyone would have used; and maybe a nearby bigger enterprise, like the Champagne Fairs.. Property inheritance created quite a patchwork. International companies operated, especially in commodity trading (wool, grain, timber, etc.), long before Europeans went out to the New World. Cathedral building and mining needed a skilled internaiional work force and management (like the Fuggers and Hochstetters). Wars required international financing as well as soldiers and sailors.
> >
> > At a more local level, certain trades required not only specialist skills but capital as well. Smithery and milling especially. At the end of your apprenticeship, you would be prepared to travel quite far to find a position and a mill or forge all of your own.
> >
> > Daniel Dickinson's father, William, was steward to the Lamplugh family of Lamplugh Hall in Lamplugh in Cumberland . As well as travelling off with his master to do battle at Marston Moor in Yorkshire, a set of accounts have survided that detail taking his 'Mistress' [ie Mrs Lamplugh] to visit her family in County Durham. They travelled with her maid and two men. I get the impression that one of the men was sent ahead to find accommodation, with the other remaining as a guard. The 'holiday' lasted about two weeks, with five days in all at their destination. Overnight they used either inns or private houses.
> >
> > Chris
> Chris, This is exactly the kind of context I need...and what great "color.." Thank you so much. It must have been thrilling for you to discover these details about William. It just occurred to me that I need to return to the Canterbury Tales! The thing that strikes me is how much activity, interaction, and travel there were...This probably sounds silly to historians and others educated in these periods of history...but somehow it's easy to imagine things being much more spare, and even primitive, than they were.
>
> And of course cathedral-building required all kinds of skills beyond local. I live in United States, and I remember the first time I saw Washington Cathedral, in D.C....A thing of such wonder. I decided I had to work there during college and did...Exploring all the nooks and crannies and almost feeling like it was my house. We just don't HAVE that stuff here, for the most part, as Europeans do!! I love to imagine the market towns and fairs. I have read the will of one ancestor who lived in Cambridge, and in it he cites his stalls at Stourbridge/Sturbridge Fair.
>
> Thank you again, Chris, for your time. Hoping to get better up to speed with my (old) new Oxford Companion to Family and Local History...It covers basics, including definitions, that will really help, too.

Glad to be of help. By the way, I wrote "There were long established routes dating back to the Romans, both inland and local" when I had intended "There were long established routes dating back to the Romans, both inland and coastal".

Chris