On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 5:01:20 PM UTC-7, dtvmc...@gmail.com wrote:

> Somebody (Stewart Baldwin?) suggested Fulbert the "tanner".

If we are talking the earliest commoner, it is far from clear that Fulbert was a commoner, and he is almost certainly not the earliest. From the same line, the earlier Sprota is reported to have been a captive concubine, so she could well have been a commoner; another that comes to mind is the 'servant' by whom Sancho I of Pamplona (d. 925) had a daughter with descendants, though again it is an open question whether she was a true common servant or rather a gentry-level royal attendant. I am sure there are other cases like the latter.

taf

A quinta-feira, 20 de janeiro de 2022 à(s) 17:10:16 UTC, Dude escreveu:
> I previously had a conversation likewise to this when I asked if it's Cerdic or the monarchs of Wessex. I know some people proposed that it was Arnulf of Mentz or Crimthann mac Énnai. What person would be her most distant ancstor that she can trace her linage to withought gaps?
Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.

On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 5:01:20 PM UTC-7, dtvmc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On 1/21/2022 3:19 AM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 7:14:46 AM UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> >> On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 4:17:57 PM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> Maybe that is the more interesting question. What is the oldest traceable Western European genealogical line with none of the links being a knight, lord, baron, or other titled individual. I would be hard pressed to identify one that extended to before the 1350s or so...
> >> I have such a solidly documented line in my own ancestry going back to the early 1400's, and I would not be at all surprised if others could do a century or more better than that.
> >>
> >> Stewart Baldwin
> >
> > I would be interested to hear what type of people they were Stewart, in order for such records to exist? Not even a lord of a manor, or an armiger? Perhaps wealthy citizens of a city?
> >
> Somebody (Stewart Baldwin?) suggested Fulbert the "tanner". Along that
> line, what about Ketil, father of Aud, and on up in Iceland? I descend
> from her.
>
> I do the genetic genealogy for the Clan Donald. I would argue that up in
> Scotland it all depends on what you consider gentry or "knight". IF
> you equate Clan chief to "knight" the we're in that category, but
> numerous of ours are mighty low level for "knight" .... "famous Scots
> Mafia hitman" would be accurate. Even quite a few not so famous. We've
> got the DNA to back it up.
>
> Doug McDonald

What is your line of descent from Ketil and Aud ?

Leslie

On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.

One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.

Stewart Baldwin

A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
> On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.
> One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.
>
> Stewart Baldwin
Thanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:33:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
> > On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.
> > One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.
> >
> > Stewart Baldwin
> Thanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?

A good start would be the followig two papers of Dumville:

David N. Dumville, Ceithri Prímchenéla Dáil Riata, Scottish Gaelic Studies, 20 (2000): 170-191.

David N. Dumville, Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages: Cotexts for Míniugud Sebcgasa Fher nAlban, in Colm Ó Baoill & Nancy R. McGuire, eds., Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig, 2000; papers read at the Conference Scottish Gaelic Studies 2000 (Aberdeen, 2002): 185-203.

I don't know whether or not online versions are available.

Stewart Baldwin

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 9:42:46 PM UTC-7, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:33:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
> > > On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.
> > > One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.
> > >
> > > Stewart Baldwin
> > Thanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?
> A good start would be the followig two papers of Dumville:
>
> David N. Dumville, Ceithri Prímchenéla Dáil Riata, Scottish Gaelic Studies, 20 (2000): 170-191.
>
> David N. Dumville, Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages: Cotexts for Míniugud Sebcgasa Fher nAlban, in Colm Ó Baoill & Nancy R. McGuire, eds., Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig, 2000; papers read at the Conference Scottish Gaelic Studies 2000 (Aberdeen, 2002): 185-203.
>
> I don't know whether or not online versions are available.

I am not finding either, but I did find an abstract by another scholar who in part is building off the first Dumville - it is a conference proceeding abstract, so not peer reviewed and of necessity the conclusions taken with a grain of salt, but it at least illuminates the potential problem with the Fergus narrative.

https://www.academia.edu/7727811/Dauvit_Broun_The_earliest_appearance_of_Fergus_M%C3%B3r_mac_Eirc_in_Scottish_History_Abstract_

In short, he concludes that the name Fergus Mor mac Eirc was 'borrowed' from an unrelated Irish monastic foundation legend and most likely attached as ancestor of the Scottish royal pedigree in the time of Kenneth mac Alpin as an expresson of that king's political and immediate familial alliances with the Ui Neill kings.

taf

A sexta-feira, 6 de maio de 2022 à(s) 05:42:46 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:33:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
> > > On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.
> > > One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.
> > >
> > > Stewart Baldwin
> > Thanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?
> A good start would be the followig two papers of Dumville:
>
> David N. Dumville, Ceithri Prímchenéla Dáil Riata, Scottish Gaelic Studies, 20 (2000): 170-191.
>
> David N. Dumville, Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages: Cotexts for Míniugud Sebcgasa Fher nAlban, in Colm Ó Baoill & Nancy R. McGuire, eds., Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig, 2000; papers read at the Conference Scottish Gaelic Studies 2000 (Aberdeen, 2002): 185-203.
>
> I don't know whether or not online versions are available.
>
> Stewart Baldwin
Thanks for this, Stewart.

A sexta-feira, 6 de maio de 2022 à(s) 08:37:13 UTC+1, taf escreveu:
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 9:42:46 PM UTC-7, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:33:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
> > > > On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > > Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.
> > > > One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic.. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.
> > > >
> > > > Stewart Baldwin
> > > Thanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?
> > A good start would be the followig two papers of Dumville:
> >
> > David N. Dumville, Ceithri Prímchenéla Dáil Riata, Scottish Gaelic Studies, 20 (2000): 170-191.
> >
> > David N. Dumville, Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages: Cotexts for Míniugud Sebcgasa Fher nAlban, in Colm Ó Baoill & Nancy R. McGuire, eds., Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig, 2000; papers read at the Conference Scottish Gaelic Studies 2000 (Aberdeen, 2002): 185-203.
> >
> > I don't know whether or not online versions are available.
> I am not finding either, but I did find an abstract by another scholar who in part is building off the first Dumville - it is a conference proceeding abstract, so not peer reviewed and of necessity the conclusions taken with a grain of salt, but it at least illuminates the potential problem with the Fergus narrative.
>
> https://www.academia.edu/7727811/Dauvit_Broun_The_earliest_appearance_of_Fergus_M%C3%B3r_mac_Eirc_in_Scottish_History_Abstract_
>
> In short, he concludes that the name Fergus Mor mac Eirc was 'borrowed' from an unrelated Irish monastic foundation legend and most likely attached as ancestor of the Scottish royal pedigree in the time of Kenneth mac Alpin as an expresson of that king's political and immediate familial alliances with the Ui Neill kings.
>
> taf
Thanks for this, Todd.

A sexta-feira, 6 de maio de 2022 à(s) 05:42:46 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 8:33:51 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A segunda-feira, 2 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:22:05 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
> > > On Saturday, April 16, 2022 at 8:46:40 PM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > > > Following Stewardt Baldwin's Henry II projec at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/at.htm, I would say Fergus Mór of Dál Riata.
> > > One problem with this line is that the documentation for the period 730-840 is less than ideal, although I am still inclined to accept it as likely. The earliest couple of generations of this line are also problematic. Gabran mac Domangairt is well-documented, but the case for Domangart relies heavily on the likelihood that Gabran's patronymic is correct. As for Fergus, the scholarship of the last couple of decades has made me more skeptical about him.
> > >
> > > Stewart Baldwin
> > Thanks for the reply, Stewart. Could you, please, link to the scholarship that has made you made you more skeptical of Fergus's existence?
> A good start would be the followig two papers of Dumville:
>
> David N. Dumville, Ceithri Prímchenéla Dáil Riata, Scottish Gaelic Studies, 20 (2000): 170-191.
>
> David N. Dumville, Ireland and North Britain in the Earlier Middle Ages: Cotexts for Míniugud Sebcgasa Fher nAlban, in Colm Ó Baoill & Nancy R. McGuire, eds., Rannsachadh na Gàidhlig, 2000; papers read at the Conference Scottish Gaelic Studies 2000 (Aberdeen, 2002): 185-203.
>
> I don't know whether or not online versions are available.
>
> Stewart Baldwin
Related: What do you think of the skepticism of the tradition that the Scottish Gaelic speakers of Dál Riata originated in Ireland?

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:19:04 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

> Related: What do you think of the skepticism of the tradition that the Scottish Gaelic speakers of Dál Riata originated in Ireland?

The problem is that the evidence is too ambiguous to have any confidence in either direction. The Irish origin is likely enough, but even then there is no reason to believe in a migration led by Fergus. A couple of other relevant articles are the following:

Richard Sharpe, "The Thriving of Dalriada" in Simon Taylor, ed., Kings, Clerics, and Chronicles in Scotland, 500-1297. Essays in honour of Marjorie Ogilvie Anderson on the occasion of her 90th birthday (Four Courts Press, 2000), 47-61.

Alex Woolf, Ancient Kindred? Dál Riata and the Cruthin (unpublished, ca. 2001).

I believe that Woolf's article is available on Academia.com. I don't know about the Sharpe article.

Stewart Baldwin

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 5:49:38 PM UTC-7, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:19:04 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>
> > Related: What do you think of the skepticism of the tradition that the Scottish Gaelic speakers of Dál Riata originated in Ireland?
> The problem is that the evidence is too ambiguous to have any confidence in either direction. The Irish origin is likely enough, but even then there is no reason to believe in a migration led by Fergus. A couple of other relevant articles are the following:
>

Here is another on this general topic. I am unfamiliar with the author, but it does appear to take a critical scholarly approach:

Sergey Fyodorov, "The Eircs and the foundation legend of Scottish Dál Riata" in ВЕСТНИК САНКТ-ПЕТЕРБУРГСКОГО УНИВЕРСИТЕТА ИСТОРИЯ Т. 62.. Вып. 1 January 2017, 57-68 (fortunately, though in a Russian historical journal, the text is in Englsh, and can be viewed in full online)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319138236_The_Eircs_and_the_foundation_legend_of_Scottish_Dal_Riata

A segunda-feira, 9 de maio de 2022 à(s) 01:49:38 UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin escreveu:
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:19:04 AM UTC-5, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>
> > Related: What do you think of the skepticism of the tradition that the Scottish Gaelic speakers of Dál Riata originated in Ireland?
> The problem is that the evidence is too ambiguous to have any confidence in either direction. The Irish origin is likely enough, but even then there is no reason to believe in a migration led by Fergus. A couple of other relevant articles are the following:
>
> Richard Sharpe, "The Thriving of Dalriada" in Simon Taylor, ed., Kings, Clerics, and Chronicles in Scotland, 500-1297. Essays in honour of Marjorie Ogilvie Anderson on the occasion of her 90th birthday (Four Courts Press, 2000), 47-61.
>
> Alex Woolf, Ancient Kindred? Dál Riata and the Cruthin (unpublished, ca. 2001).
>
> I believe that Woolf's article is available on Academia.com. I don't know about the Sharpe article.
>
> Stewart Baldwin
Thanks for this, Stewart. As https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata#Origins says, the theory of an Irish origin for Dál Riata was disputed by archaeologist Dr Ewan Campbell in his academic paper Were the Scots Irish?. However, looking more closely, the Wikipedia page also says this thesis has not withstood academic scrutiny. Woolf's article is cited.