On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 4:18:28 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 2:56:07 PM UTC-7, Chris Pitt Lewis wrote:
> > There is a detailed account of this family by Glyn Roberts, "Teulu
> > Penmynydd", in Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion
> > 1959, pp.9-37. Unfortunately it is in Welsh, but helpfully there is a
> > pedigree on p.37.
> For anyone interested, I found this article online:
>
> https://journals.library.wales/view/1386666/1415159/16#?xywh=-62%2C272%2C2570%2C1776
>
> taf

Thanks.

It has been quite some time since this last posting.

I was looking through the group to see what could be found regarding these lines. From the article mentioned here, from the chart on that page, it seems that Generys and Gruffydd were related within a few degrees, and that their son and his first wife Morfudd, were also related within a few degrees, on the Tudur side.

Question: There seem to be a few men in this line named Goronwy.
Is Goronwy Fychan, the father of Madog, and grandfather of Generys, a brother of Tudur Hen?
or was the father of Madog the same as the son of Tudur Hen?

The reconstruction in the article gives three generations between Generys to Ednyfed Fychan, and four generations between her husband and Ednyfed.

From various articles on Ednyfed, it seems that the line of the Tudurs came from the first marriage of Ednyfed, but the line of Gruffydd from a second marriage. It seems a little odd that the male line would be longer in this case.

I am still not sure if Ellen, the daughter of Gwilym and Jonet Stanley, and wife of William Bulkeley, was the mother of Catherine Bulkeley, the second wife of Randall Brereton, and if Catherine was the mother of the next Randall Brereton.

J. Sardina

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 10:29:47 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 4:18:28 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 2:56:07 PM UTC-7, Chris Pitt Lewis wrote:
> > > There is a detailed account of this family by Glyn Roberts, "Teulu
> > > Penmynydd", in Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion
> > > 1959, pp.9-37. Unfortunately it is in Welsh, but helpfully there is a
> > > pedigree on p.37.
> > For anyone interested, I found this article online:
> >
> > https://journals.library.wales/view/1386666/1415159/16#?xywh=-62%2C272%2C2570%2C1776
> >
> > taf
> Thanks.
>
> It has been quite some time since this last posting.
>
> I was looking through the group to see what could be found regarding these lines. From the article mentioned here, from the chart on that page, it seems that Generys and Gruffydd were related within a few degrees, and that their son and his first wife Morfudd, were also related within a few degrees, on the Tudur side.
>
> Question: There seem to be a few men in this line named Goronwy.
> Is Goronwy Fychan, the father of Madog, and grandfather of Generys, a brother of Tudur Hen?
> or was the father of Madog the same as the son of Tudur Hen?
>
> The reconstruction in the article gives three generations between Generys to Ednyfed Fychan, and four generations between her husband and Ednyfed.

This is the same as given by Bartrum, that Goronwy Fychan was grandson of Ednyfed Fychan.

> From various articles on Ednyfed, it seems that the line of the Tudurs came from the first marriage of Ednyfed, but the line of Gruffydd from a second marriage. It seems a little odd that the male line would be longer in this case.
>

The logic behind this suggestion is sound, but its basis is not. The son of Ednyfed from whom Gruffydd ap Gwilym descends, Tudur, was from the first marriage, while Goronwy, the ancestor of the Tudors (and of Genery), was from the second wife. Gruffydd also seems to descend from a string of eldest sons, which would shorten the average generation span, and hence involve more generations to span the same time. Generys, as a woman, would be expected to be younger at marriage, while her grandfather Goronwy Fychan seems to have been a younger son. I am not sure that the cumulative effect of all of these might not be a wash, but it certainly isn't strong disparity between teh two lines to overturn the traditional pedigree.

taf

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 7:02:35 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 10:29:47 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 4:18:28 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 2:56:07 PM UTC-7, Chris Pitt Lewis wrote:
> > > > There is a detailed account of this family by Glyn Roberts, "Teulu
> > > > Penmynydd", in Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion
> > > > 1959, pp.9-37. Unfortunately it is in Welsh, but helpfully there is a
> > > > pedigree on p.37.
> > > For anyone interested, I found this article online:
> > >
> > > https://journals.library.wales/view/1386666/1415159/16#?xywh=-62%2C272%2C2570%2C1776
> > >
> > > taf
> > Thanks.
> >
> > It has been quite some time since this last posting.
> >
> > I was looking through the group to see what could be found regarding these lines. From the article mentioned here, from the chart on that page, it seems that Generys and Gruffydd were related within a few degrees, and that their son and his first wife Morfudd, were also related within a few degrees, on the Tudur side.
> >
> > Question: There seem to be a few men in this line named Goronwy.
> > Is Goronwy Fychan, the father of Madog, and grandfather of Generys, a brother of Tudur Hen?
> > or was the father of Madog the same as the son of Tudur Hen?
> >
> > The reconstruction in the article gives three generations between Generys to Ednyfed Fychan, and four generations between her husband and Ednyfed.
> This is the same as given by Bartrum, that Goronwy Fychan was grandson of Ednyfed Fychan.
> > From various articles on Ednyfed, it seems that the line of the Tudurs came from the first marriage of Ednyfed, but the line of Gruffydd from a second marriage. It seems a little odd that the male line would be longer in this case.
> >
> The logic behind this suggestion is sound, but its basis is not. The son of Ednyfed from whom Gruffydd ap Gwilym descends, Tudur, was from the first marriage, while Goronwy, the ancestor of the Tudors (and of Genery), was from the second wife. Gruffydd also seems to descend from a string of eldest sons, which would shorten the average generation span, and hence involve more generations to span the same time. Generys, as a woman, would be expected to be younger at marriage, while her grandfather Goronwy Fychan seems to have been a younger son. I am not sure that the cumulative effect of all of these might not be a wash, but it certainly isn't strong disparity between teh two lines to overturn the traditional pedigree.
>
> taf

Great. Thanks for the review and response.

J. Sardina

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 10:29:47 AM UTC-7, J. Sardina wrote:
> On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 4:18:28 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 2:56:07 PM UTC-7, Chris Pitt Lewis wrote:
> > > There is a detailed account of this family by Glyn Roberts, "Teulu
> > > Penmynydd", in Transactions of the Honourable Society of Cymmrodorion
> > > 1959, pp.9-37. Unfortunately it is in Welsh, but helpfully there is a
> > > pedigree on p.37.
> > For anyone interested, I found this article online:
> >
> > https://journals.library.wales/view/1386666/1415159/16#?xywh=-62%2C272%2C2570%2C1776
> >
> > taf
> Thanks.
>
> It has been quite some time since this last posting.
>
> I was looking through the group to see what could be found regarding these lines. From the article mentioned here, from the chart on that page, it seems that Generys and Gruffydd were related within a few degrees, and that their son and his first wife Morfudd, were also related within a few degrees, on the Tudur side.
>
> Question: There seem to be a few men in this line named Goronwy.
> Is Goronwy Fychan, the father of Madog, and grandfather of Generys, a brother of Tudur Hen?
> or was the father of Madog the same as the son of Tudur Hen?
>
> The reconstruction in the article gives three generations between Generys to Ednyfed Fychan, and four generations between her husband and Ednyfed.
>
> From various articles on Ednyfed, it seems that the line of the Tudurs came from the first marriage of Ednyfed, but the line of Gruffydd from a second marriage. It seems a little odd that the male line would be longer in this case.
>
> I am still not sure if Ellen, the daughter of Gwilym and Jonet Stanley, and wife of William Bulkeley, was the mother of Catherine Bulkeley, the second wife of Randall Brereton, and if Catherine was the mother of the next Randall Brereton.
>
> J. Sardina

There is a pedigree with Randall Brereton, Catherine Bulkeley and others, with sources, here:
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00263731&tree=LEO

Leslie

On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 9:47:30 PM UTC-7, Leslie Mahler wrote:
> There is a pedigree with Randall Brereton, Catherine Bulkeley and others, with sources, here:
> https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00263731&tree=LEO

Unfortunately, one of the pages critical for this question, that for Marjory, mother of Brereton wife Catherine Bulkeley, has "[S04743] Posting to Soc-Gen-Med Newsgroup 19 Oct 2020" as its only source.

taf

On Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 3:21:02 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> On Monday, October 10, 2022 at 9:47:30 PM UTC-7, Leslie Mahler wrote:
> > There is a pedigree with Randall Brereton, Catherine Bulkeley and others, with sources, here:
> > https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00263731&tree=LEO
> Unfortunately, one of the pages critical for this question, that for Marjory, mother of Brereton wife Catherine Bulkeley, has "[S04743] Posting to Soc-Gen-Med Newsgroup 19 Oct 2020" as its only source.
>
> taf

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/8u5g0E1wTeM/m/yrwlQ4mMAwAJ