On Friday, July 20, 2001 at 7:31:22 PM UTC+12, RAY Montgomery wrote:
> To whom it may concern:
> I am left scratching my head over this one.
> I have a Maud (matilda) daughter of robert the Bruce king of scotland and
> his wife elizabeth burgh married to thomas macisaac. I have not been able to
> find a thing on Thomas's origin or parents. Any one have a clue where he
> came from? Or his ancestry?
> RAY
>
> <br><br><br>If you quit, you fail!!! Never, never quit!
> Monte J. Brough in a personal letter (March 1980)
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Hi Ray, I'm curious to know if you found any further information?

On 15-May-22 11:26 AM, Kirsten wrote:
> On Friday, July 20, 2001 at 7:31:22 PM UTC+12, RAY Montgomery wrote:
>> To whom it may concern:
>> I am left scratching my head over this one.
>> I have a Maud (matilda) daughter of robert the Bruce king of scotland and
>> his wife elizabeth burgh married to thomas macisaac. I have not been able to
>> find a thing on Thomas's origin or parents. Any one have a clue where he
>> came from? Or his ancestry?
>> RAY
>>
>> <br><br><br>If you quit, you fail!!! Never, never quit!
>> Monte J. Brough in a personal letter (March 1980)
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
> Hi Ray, I'm curious to know if you found any further information?

Reviving a post from 2001 is not a very likely way to elicit a response
from the poster.

For Robert I's daughter Matilda and her marriage to Thomas Isaac (not
MacIsaac) see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/23223/.

Peter Stewart

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

A domingo, 15 de maio de 2022 à(s) 04:47:50 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com..au escreveu:
> On 15-May-22 11:26 AM, Kirsten wrote:
> > On Friday, July 20, 2001 at 7:31:22 PM UTC+12, RAY Montgomery wrote:
> >> To whom it may concern:
> >> I am left scratching my head over this one.
> >> I have a Maud (matilda) daughter of robert the Bruce king of scotland and
> >> his wife elizabeth burgh married to thomas macisaac. I have not been able to
> >> find a thing on Thomas's origin or parents. Any one have a clue where he
> >> came from? Or his ancestry?
> >> RAY
> >>
> >> <br><br><br>If you quit, you fail!!! Never, never quit!
> >> Monte J. Brough in a personal letter (March 1980)
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl..asp
> >
> > Hi Ray, I'm curious to know if you found any further information?
> Reviving a post from 2001 is not a very likely way to elicit a response
> from the poster.
>
> For Robert I's daughter Matilda and her marriage to Thomas Isaac (not
> MacIsaac) see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/23223/.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
Dear Peter, what do you think was the reason for this strange marriage?

On 16-May-22 3:17 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A domingo, 15 de maio de 2022 à(s) 04:47:50 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
>> On 15-May-22 11:26 AM, Kirsten wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 20, 2001 at 7:31:22 PM UTC+12, RAY Montgomery wrote:
>>>> To whom it may concern:
>>>> I am left scratching my head over this one.
>>>> I have a Maud (matilda) daughter of robert the Bruce king of scotland and
>>>> his wife elizabeth burgh married to thomas macisaac. I have not been able to
>>>> find a thing on Thomas's origin or parents. Any one have a clue where he
>>>> came from? Or his ancestry?
>>>> RAY
>>>>
>>>> <br><br><br>If you quit, you fail!!! Never, never quit!
>>>> Monte J. Brough in a personal letter (March 1980)
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>>>
>>> Hi Ray, I'm curious to know if you found any further information?
>> Reviving a post from 2001 is not a very likely way to elicit a response
>> from the poster.
>>
>> For Robert I's daughter Matilda and her marriage to Thomas Isaac (not
>> MacIsaac) see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/23223/.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>> https://www.avg.com
> Dear Peter, what do you think was the reason for this strange marriage?

I don't even know that reason had anything to do with it - but of course
I have no special insight.

In general I think it is a basic fallacy to assume that medieval people
always followed convention in marriage arrangements, much less as we see
norms applying to their circumstances in distant retrospect. For
instance, no doubt "shot-gun" weddings occurred long before there were
shot-guns to enforce them.

As for Thomas Isaac, I doubt that his marriage to Matilda was considered
as disgraceful to the Bruce family and their connections in the 14th
century as it has been by pompous historians since. According to Michael
Penman (The MacDonald Lordship and the Bruce Dynasty, in _The Lordship
of the Isles_, 2014, p. 80) King David II "From his own exile ... may
have had a hand as early as 1352 in MacDougall's marriage to his niece,
Janet (daughter of Thomas Isaac and Matilda Bruce)".

Peter Stewart

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:17:01 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:

> Dear Peter, what do you think was the reason for this strange marriage?

We have pretty much zero information, so one can attribute it to a range of reasons. It could be that Isaac was a knightly companion of her brother. Maybe he lent the king money (though we probably would know this) or was awarded for some other service (like 'el de los Garfios', a relatively obscure local landholder, being given the marriage of a niece by Alfonso X as reward for leading a heroic but ultimately disastrous 'last stand'). Maybe she was mentally or physically disabled. Or moral compromise - i.e. pregnant or otherwise 'tainted' in some manner. Even love, of all things. The near-complete lack of information allows you to conclude whatever you want.

taf

A segunda-feira, 16 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:07:59 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
> On 16-May-22 3:17 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A domingo, 15 de maio de 2022 à(s) 04:47:50 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet..com.au escreveu:
> >> On 15-May-22 11:26 AM, Kirsten wrote:
> >>> On Friday, July 20, 2001 at 7:31:22 PM UTC+12, RAY Montgomery wrote:
> >>>> To whom it may concern:
> >>>> I am left scratching my head over this one.
> >>>> I have a Maud (matilda) daughter of robert the Bruce king of scotland and
> >>>> his wife elizabeth burgh married to thomas macisaac. I have not been able to
> >>>> find a thing on Thomas's origin or parents. Any one have a clue where he
> >>>> came from? Or his ancestry?
> >>>> RAY
> >>>>
> >>>> <br><br><br>If you quit, you fail!!! Never, never quit!
> >>>> Monte J. Brough in a personal letter (March 1980)
> >>>>
> >>>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>>> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >>>
> >>> Hi Ray, I'm curious to know if you found any further information?
> >> Reviving a post from 2001 is not a very likely way to elicit a response
> >> from the poster.
> >>
> >> For Robert I's daughter Matilda and her marriage to Thomas Isaac (not
> >> MacIsaac) see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/23223/.
> >>
> >> Peter Stewart
> >>
> >> --
> >> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> >> https://www.avg.com
> > Dear Peter, what do you think was the reason for this strange marriage?
> I don't even know that reason had anything to do with it - but of course
> I have no special insight.
>
> In general I think it is a basic fallacy to assume that medieval people
> always followed convention in marriage arrangements, much less as we see
> norms applying to their circumstances in distant retrospect. For
> instance, no doubt "shot-gun" weddings occurred long before there were
> shot-guns to enforce them.
>
> As for Thomas Isaac, I doubt that his marriage to Matilda was considered
> as disgraceful to the Bruce family and their connections in the 14th
> century as it has been by pompous historians since. According to Michael
> Penman (The MacDonald Lordship and the Bruce Dynasty, in _The Lordship
> of the Isles_, 2014, p. 80) King David II "From his own exile ... may
> have had a hand as early as 1352 in MacDougall's marriage to his niece,
> Janet (daughter of Thomas Isaac and Matilda Bruce)".
>
> Peter Stewart
Thanks for the reply, Peter. What did you mean by "I don't even know that reason had anything to do with it"?

A segunda-feira, 16 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:09:51 UTC+1, taf escreveu:
> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 10:17:01 AM UTC-7, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>
> > Dear Peter, what do you think was the reason for this strange marriage?
> We have pretty much zero information, so one can attribute it to a range of reasons. It could be that Isaac was a knightly companion of her brother. Maybe he lent the king money (though we probably would know this) or was awarded for some other service (like 'el de los Garfios', a relatively obscure local landholder, being given the marriage of a niece by Alfonso X as reward for leading a heroic but ultimately disastrous 'last stand'). Maybe she was mentally or physically disabled. Or moral compromise - i.e. pregnant or otherwise 'tainted' in some manner. Even love, of all things. The near-complete lack of information allows you to conclude whatever you want.
>
> taf
Thanks for the reply, Todd.

A domingo, 15 de maio de 2022 à(s) 04:47:50 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com..au escreveu:
> On 15-May-22 11:26 AM, Kirsten wrote:
> > On Friday, July 20, 2001 at 7:31:22 PM UTC+12, RAY Montgomery wrote:
> >> To whom it may concern:
> >> I am left scratching my head over this one.
> >> I have a Maud (matilda) daughter of robert the Bruce king of scotland and
> >> his wife elizabeth burgh married to thomas macisaac. I have not been able to
> >> find a thing on Thomas's origin or parents. Any one have a clue where he
> >> came from? Or his ancestry?
> >> RAY
> >>
> >> <br><br><br>If you quit, you fail!!! Never, never quit!
> >> Monte J. Brough in a personal letter (March 1980)
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________________________
> >> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl..asp
> >
> > Hi Ray, I'm curious to know if you found any further information?
> Reviving a post from 2001 is not a very likely way to elicit a response
> from the poster.
>
> For Robert I's daughter Matilda and her marriage to Thomas Isaac (not
> MacIsaac) see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/23223/.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
What do you think of Kelsey's 2017 theory that Thomas Isaac's father was Isaac the Clericus?

On 16-May-22 12:33 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A segunda-feira, 16 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:07:59 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
>> On 16-May-22 3:17 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>>> A domingo, 15 de maio de 2022 à(s) 04:47:50 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
>>>> On 15-May-22 11:26 AM, Kirsten wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, July 20, 2001 at 7:31:22 PM UTC+12, RAY Montgomery wrote:
>>>>>> To whom it may concern:
>>>>>> I am left scratching my head over this one.
>>>>>> I have a Maud (matilda) daughter of robert the Bruce king of scotland and
>>>>>> his wife elizabeth burgh married to thomas macisaac. I have not been able to
>>>>>> find a thing on Thomas's origin or parents. Any one have a clue where he
>>>>>> came from? Or his ancestry?
>>>>>> RAY
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <br><br><br>If you quit, you fail!!! Never, never quit!
>>>>>> Monte J. Brough in a personal letter (March 1980)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ray, I'm curious to know if you found any further information?
>>>> Reviving a post from 2001 is not a very likely way to elicit a response
>>>> from the poster.
>>>>
>>>> For Robert I's daughter Matilda and her marriage to Thomas Isaac (not
>>>> MacIsaac) see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/23223/.
>>>>
>>>> Peter Stewart
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>>>> https://www.avg.com
>>> Dear Peter, what do you think was the reason for this strange marriage?
>> I don't even know that reason had anything to do with it - but of course
>> I have no special insight.
>>
>> In general I think it is a basic fallacy to assume that medieval people
>> always followed convention in marriage arrangements, much less as we see
>> norms applying to their circumstances in distant retrospect. For
>> instance, no doubt "shot-gun" weddings occurred long before there were
>> shot-guns to enforce them.
>>
>> As for Thomas Isaac, I doubt that his marriage to Matilda was considered
>> as disgraceful to the Bruce family and their connections in the 14th
>> century as it has been by pompous historians since. According to Michael
>> Penman (The MacDonald Lordship and the Bruce Dynasty, in _The Lordship
>> of the Isles_, 2014, p. 80) King David II "From his own exile ... may
>> have had a hand as early as 1352 in MacDougall's marriage to his niece,
>> Janet (daughter of Thomas Isaac and Matilda Bruce)".
>>
>> Peter Stewart
> Thanks for the reply, Peter. What did you mean by "I don't even know that reason had anything to do with it"?

A play on shades of meaning - your question used "reason" to mean
motive, my reply used it to mean rationality. The marriage may have come
about from passion or cupidity, rather than from sense or calculation,
for all I know.

Peter Stewart

On 16-May-22 12:35 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A domingo, 15 de maio de 2022 à(s) 04:47:50 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
>> On 15-May-22 11:26 AM, Kirsten wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 20, 2001 at 7:31:22 PM UTC+12, RAY Montgomery wrote:
>>>> To whom it may concern:
>>>> I am left scratching my head over this one.
>>>> I have a Maud (matilda) daughter of robert the Bruce king of scotland and
>>>> his wife elizabeth burgh married to thomas macisaac. I have not been able to
>>>> find a thing on Thomas's origin or parents. Any one have a clue where he
>>>> came from? Or his ancestry?
>>>> RAY
>>>>
>>>> <br><br><br>If you quit, you fail!!! Never, never quit!
>>>> Monte J. Brough in a personal letter (March 1980)
>>>>
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>>>
>>> Hi Ray, I'm curious to know if you found any further information?
>> Reviving a post from 2001 is not a very likely way to elicit a response
>> from the poster.
>>
>> For Robert I's daughter Matilda and her marriage to Thomas Isaac (not
>> MacIsaac) see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/23223/.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>> https://www.avg.com
> What do you think of Kelsey's 2017 theory that Thomas Isaac's father was Isaac the Clericus?

I hadn't thought about it, so perhaps you are more concerned with what I
think than I am.

The clerk Isaac was one of the baillies of Aberdeen in March 1311 (new
style), see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/16819/. Thomas Isaac
was described as noble in September 1358, when he was brother-in-law to
the king. Making these men of widely different status into father and
son would require clearer evidence than just the name Isaac and a link
to Aberdeen in common.

Peter Stewart

A segunda-feira, 16 de maio de 2022 à(s) 06:50:49 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
> On 16-May-22 12:33 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A segunda-feira, 16 de maio de 2022 à(s) 00:07:59 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
> >> On 16-May-22 3:17 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> >>> A domingo, 15 de maio de 2022 à(s) 04:47:50 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
> >>>> On 15-May-22 11:26 AM, Kirsten wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, July 20, 2001 at 7:31:22 PM UTC+12, RAY Montgomery wrote:
> >>>>>> To whom it may concern:
> >>>>>> I am left scratching my head over this one.
> >>>>>> I have a Maud (matilda) daughter of robert the Bruce king of scotland and
> >>>>>> his wife elizabeth burgh married to thomas macisaac. I have not been able to
> >>>>>> find a thing on Thomas's origin or parents. Any one have a clue where he
> >>>>>> came from? Or his ancestry?
> >>>>>> RAY
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <br><br><br>If you quit, you fail!!! Never, never quit!
> >>>>>> Monte J. Brough in a personal letter (March 1980)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>>>>> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Ray, I'm curious to know if you found any further information?
> >>>> Reviving a post from 2001 is not a very likely way to elicit a response
> >>>> from the poster.
> >>>>
> >>>> For Robert I's daughter Matilda and her marriage to Thomas Isaac (not
> >>>> MacIsaac) see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/23223/.
> >>>>
> >>>> Peter Stewart
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> >>>> https://www.avg.com
> >>> Dear Peter, what do you think was the reason for this strange marriage?
> >> I don't even know that reason had anything to do with it - but of course
> >> I have no special insight.
> >>
> >> In general I think it is a basic fallacy to assume that medieval people
> >> always followed convention in marriage arrangements, much less as we see
> >> norms applying to their circumstances in distant retrospect. For
> >> instance, no doubt "shot-gun" weddings occurred long before there were
> >> shot-guns to enforce them.
> >>
> >> As for Thomas Isaac, I doubt that his marriage to Matilda was considered
> >> as disgraceful to the Bruce family and their connections in the 14th
> >> century as it has been by pompous historians since. According to Michael
> >> Penman (The MacDonald Lordship and the Bruce Dynasty, in _The Lordship
> >> of the Isles_, 2014, p. 80) King David II "From his own exile ... may
> >> have had a hand as early as 1352 in MacDougall's marriage to his niece,
> >> Janet (daughter of Thomas Isaac and Matilda Bruce)".
> >>
> >> Peter Stewart
> > Thanks for the reply, Peter. What did you mean by "I don't even know that reason had anything to do with it"?
> A play on shades of meaning - your question used "reason" to mean
> motive, my reply used it to mean rationality. The marriage may have come
> about from passion or cupidity, rather than from sense or calculation,
> for all I know.
>
> Peter Stewart
Thanks for the reply, Peter. I suspected so.

A segunda-feira, 16 de maio de 2022 à(s) 07:00:58 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au escreveu:
> On 16-May-22 12:35 PM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > A domingo, 15 de maio de 2022 à(s) 04:47:50 UTC+1, pss...@optusnet..com.au escreveu:
> >> On 15-May-22 11:26 AM, Kirsten wrote:
> >>> On Friday, July 20, 2001 at 7:31:22 PM UTC+12, RAY Montgomery wrote:
> >>>> To whom it may concern:
> >>>> I am left scratching my head over this one.
> >>>> I have a Maud (matilda) daughter of robert the Bruce king of scotland and
> >>>> his wife elizabeth burgh married to thomas macisaac. I have not been able to
> >>>> find a thing on Thomas's origin or parents. Any one have a clue where he
> >>>> came from? Or his ancestry?
> >>>> RAY
> >>>>
> >>>> <br><br><br>If you quit, you fail!!! Never, never quit!
> >>>> Monte J. Brough in a personal letter (March 1980)
> >>>>
> >>>> _________________________________________________________________
> >>>> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >>>
> >>> Hi Ray, I'm curious to know if you found any further information?
> >> Reviving a post from 2001 is not a very likely way to elicit a response
> >> from the poster.
> >>
> >> For Robert I's daughter Matilda and her marriage to Thomas Isaac (not
> >> MacIsaac) see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/23223/.
> >>
> >> Peter Stewart
> >>
> >> --
> >> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> >> https://www.avg.com
> > What do you think of Kelsey's 2017 theory that Thomas Isaac's father was Isaac the Clericus?
> I hadn't thought about it, so perhaps you are more concerned with what I
> think than I am.
>
> The clerk Isaac was one of the baillies of Aberdeen in March 1311 (new
> style), see https://www.poms.ac.uk/record/person/16819/. Thomas Isaac
> was described as noble in September 1358, when he was brother-in-law to
> the king. Making these men of widely different status into father and
> son would require clearer evidence than just the name Isaac and a link
> to Aberdeen in common.
>
> Peter Stewart
Thanks for the reply, Peter.