Hello, all. Question about use of manorial documents: Is it correct that, when consulting these, it's wise to check records of immediately adjacent manors, and maybe records of parishes adjacent to -- or within [x?] miles of -- the primary manor and parish of interest?

I assume this might give a researcher the best chance of locating younger members of an adult sibling group within an ancestral family...that such members may have moved away from the lord/heir's home -- possibly to other lands held by the family, some reasonably close by and others far away?

It's hard to decide how far afield -- literally and figuratively -- to go when trying to find an elusive ancestor. Just wondering, within reasonable limits, about manorial records. Thanks, as always.

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 12:02:35 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:
> Hello, all. Question about use of manorial documents: Is it correct that, when consulting these, it's wise to check records of immediately adjacent manors, and maybe records of parishes adjacent to -- or within [x?] miles of -- the primary manor and parish of interest?
>
> I assume this might give a researcher the best chance of locating younger members of an adult sibling group within an ancestral family...that such members may have moved away from the lord/heir's home -- possibly to other lands held by the family, some reasonably close by and others far away?
>
> It's hard to decide how far afield -- literally and figuratively -- to go when trying to find an elusive ancestor. Just wondering, within reasonable limits, about manorial records. Thanks, as always.

At the risk of emphasizing a point you already appreciate, most of the time manorial records do not survive or are really hard to consult. Those that are deposited in archives are very much the exception, not the rule. Thus the idea of checking immediately-adjacent manors seems good in theory, but in practice not so much.

As to the proximity effect, there probably was a relationship between distance and likelihood a younger son would settle in a place, but not with a high degree of correlation. One would be more aware of available properties in the immediate area, but so many other factors were involved. Families often had far-reaching social connections, across the county or country, from which they might learn of opportunities. There were also in-and-out effects with the cities (particularly London) and the universities, to which a younger son would go seeking opportunities, and there gain a truly-national social network that would then leverage to acquire a new seat in the country, distant from their place of origin, through marriage, purchase, or in the case of the universities, acquiring a parish as vicar. My gut feeling is that the inordinant effort it would take to locate and consult records of numerous adjacent manors would not be worth the hunt, unless you already know the family had a presence there (e.g. an ipm told you they were there).

Parish registers are a better target. A couple usually married in or near the groom's or the bride's home or else in/near London (which is less help as the records of this period never connect them with their home parishes). Depending on when you are talking about, the records are more likely to have survived, and easier to consult. Finding a marriage of a younger son can give you the wife's name, and hence perhaps enable you to make a tentative match with parents of baptized children even at a distant parishes if the name combination is unusual enough and the chronology matches.

On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 1:01:13 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 12:02:35 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:
> > Hello, all. Question about use of manorial documents: Is it correct that, when consulting these, it's wise to check records of immediately adjacent manors, and maybe records of parishes adjacent to -- or within [x?] miles of -- the primary manor and parish of interest?
> >
> > I assume this might give a researcher the best chance of locating younger members of an adult sibling group within an ancestral family...that such members may have moved away from the lord/heir's home -- possibly to other lands held by the family, some reasonably close by and others far away?
> >
> > It's hard to decide how far afield -- literally and figuratively -- to go when trying to find an elusive ancestor. Just wondering, within reasonable limits, about manorial records. Thanks, as always.
> At the risk of emphasizing a point you already appreciate, most of the time manorial records do not survive or are really hard to consult. Those that are deposited in archives are very much the exception, not the rule. Thus the idea of checking immediately-adjacent manors seems good in theory, but in practice not so much.
>
> As to the proximity effect, there probably was a relationship between distance and likelihood a younger son would settle in a place, but not with a high degree of correlation. One would be more aware of available properties in the immediate area, but so many other factors were involved. Families often had far-reaching social connections, across the county or country, from which they might learn of opportunities. There were also in-and-out effects with the cities (particularly London) and the universities, to which a younger son would go seeking opportunities, and there gain a truly-national social network that would then leverage to acquire a new seat in the country, distant from their place of origin, through marriage, purchase, or in the case of the universities, acquiring a parish as vicar. My gut feeling is that the inordinant effort it would take to locate and consult records of numerous adjacent manors would not be worth the hunt, unless you already know the family had a presence there (e.g. an ipm told you they were there).
>
> Parish registers are a better target. A couple usually married in or near the groom's or the bride's home or else in/near London (which is less help as the records of this period never connect them with their home parishes).. Depending on when you are talking about, the records are more likely to have survived, and easier to consult. Finding a marriage of a younger son can give you the wife's name, and hence perhaps enable you to make a tentative match with parents of baptized children even at a distant parishes if the name combination is unusual enough and the chronology matches.

"As to the proximity effect, there probably was a relationship between distance and likelihood a younger son would settle in a place, but not with a high degree of correlation. One would be more aware of available properties in the immediate area, but so many other factors were involved. Families often had far-reaching social connections, across the county or country, from which they might learn of opportunities. There were also in-and-out effects with the cities (particularly London) and the universities, to which a younger son would go seeking opportunities, and there gain a truly-national social network that would then leverage to acquire a new seat in the country, distant from their place of origin, through marriage, purchase, or in the case of the universities, acquiring a parish as vicar."

taf, Thank you...you've provided much-needed insights, as always. In trying to learn so many aspects at once, I forgot that manorial records are quite limited. Without a comprehensive (or even basic) knowledge of the history of a given period -- and a working knowledge of records, how they were created, and how they've made their way to various repositories -- it's tricky.

I didn't start with parish records in this case because my subject FitzRandolph ancestors lived and died several decades before most of the registers start; I wasn't sure -- for the mid-15th to mid-16th centuries -- what another sensible starting point might be. Any suggestions?

My John FitzRandolph, d. prob before 1516, was presumed to have been the third or fourth son of his parents; John's son, Christopher, had a marriage arranged by John's presumed brother -- Chris "parson" -- who had been "sent to that living" in a Nottinghamshire parish, from North Yorkshire, in 1490....John and Chris parson's presumed uncle J. Conyers held the advowson. While I've had a little luck researching the parson, his brother -- direct ancestor, John -- has proven completely elusive. Maybe, as you said, he'd gone to university somewhere, or to London (or York, maybe?), worked there or met and married, and even died there? Later, John's brother the parson arranged a marriage in Notts for John's son? So this might have been a good example of what you were explaining: a born-in-Yorkshire uncle who placed his parson nephew in a Notts parish, and that nephew arranging a marriage for his own nephew in Notts/Derby.

Sounds like I need to look into where younger sons in almost any county might have gone to university (in addition to Oxford, Cambridge?), and which cities they might have gone to for work (in addition to London).

I also don't know the names of at least two wives of subject FitzRandolphs. I have no idea how far Mr. Coddington looked into this in trying to solve the gap in this pedigree. In his notes to FitzRandolph pedigree in "Magna Carta Sureties," he says that wife of Christopher FitzRandolph (d. 1588) had pre-deceased her husband and wasn't known, but this appears to be an error: Chris's wife IS mentioned in his will, but her name is not given. He was buried, I think, at St. Mary Magdalene in Sutton-in-Ashfield, so she is likely there, too...Maybe I can find something.

Thanks again, taf. So appreciate your help.

*

On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 2:27:15 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:

> I didn't start with parish records in this case because my subject FitzRandolph ancestors lived and died several decades before most of the registers start; I wasn't sure -- for the mid-15th to mid-16th centuries -- what another sensible starting point might be. Any suggestions?
>

If you haven't done a deep dive for wills, that would be a place to start - there are often several places a will might be recorded. I haven't worked much on Notts, but some counties were real patchworks of jurisdictions (one parish I worked on even had split jurisdiction - each year, probates from Jan-June went to one probate court, those from July-Dec to a different one, plus PCC if they held property in multiple regional jurisdictions).

> So this might have been a good example of what you were explaining: a born-in-Yorkshire uncle who placed his parson nephew in a Notts parish, and that nephew arranging a marriage for his own nephew in Notts/Derby.
>

Yes, exactly.

> Sounds like I need to look into where younger sons in almost any county might have gone to university (in addition to Oxford, Cambridge?), and which cities they might have gone to for work (in addition to London).
>

At this time, for someone from Notts, it would usually be Oxford or Cambridge. As to cities, London was the big draw, but with family connections in Yorkshire, York would be a possibility. Someone seeking professional training might end up in the county town, those interested in trade might go to the nearest market town (or even seaport).

taf

Taking the example of Lamplugh in Cumberland. Lamplugh describes the parish.. The manor, however, was 'Lamplugh and Arlecdon', comprising the northern halves of the two adjoining parishes. The southern halves were a different manor entirely. The church, the manor house, and the manorial demesne were quite far north in Lamplugh. Everyone in Lamplugh would use their parish church; everyone in Arlecdon would have used their parish church; but, as a very general observation, with plenty of counterfactuals, families tended to work and form bonds within the manor rather than the parish and cause surname clusters there.

The Lamplugh family itself had branches in other parishes (and in Yorkshire) and this influenced, or was influenced by, local trading networks. The Lamplugh economy was dominated by textiles, with wool from sheep on the fells geing processed in the parish, and then woven in the village of Ullock in Dean parish, before being sold in the nearby market town of Cockermouth. I think a deep knowledge of the local economy is crucial in genealogy.

Cunbrians used The Queen's College, Oxford, because it was founded for northerners. They tended to have links with the Skinners Company in London, and the Goldsmiths Company, simply because of their resources. I don't know what the equivalents were for Notts.

Newark-on-Trent was a major meeting point for the Great North Road and the Fosse Way, as well as being an inland port. So family contacts could have been geographically extensive.

Chris

For Yorkshire, have you tried the Yorkshire Deeds series and Feet of
Fines series in the Yorks Arch Soc Records Series? They're all
available at archive.org.

On Saturday, June 18, 2022 at 6:34:02 AM UTC-4, Ian Goddard wrote:
> For Yorkshire, have you tried the Yorkshire Deeds series and Feet of
> Fines series in the Yorks Arch Soc Records Series? They're all
taf, Chris and Ian: Thank so much for the helpful insights. taf, will start looking at wills, in both Notts and York, keeping in mind changes of jurisdiction re: lands held, and time of year. I obtained the 1516 will of my Christopher FitzRandolph the parson (d. Notts) from Borthwick months ago.

Relatedly, I discovered that Christopher parson was ordained acolyte, deacon and priest at York, at Holy Trinity Church and Carmelite friary, 1485...not sure if this means it's likely he had attended divinity school there, or whether he returned from more distant school to a "home" location for those rites. I've checked Oxford alumni list and not found him, but did see one Edward FitzRandolph of Derby, matriculated 1577 -- maybe 11th g-g, and a Paul FitzRandolph, B.A., around 1580, likely a fairly distant cousin.

Chris, I appreciate good observation about knowledge of local economies, including trading hubs and routes. I need to find some Notts and York county and local histories and maybe could check with those counties' historical/genealogy societies. Your reply also confirmed that it's not unusual to get a bit muddled about how parishes and manors and their people fit together.

Ian, I'll try Yorkshire deeds and Feet of Fines at Archive. Also -- haven't looked at anything yet at AALT...A little intimidated at trying to find things there, as well as just reading the docs.