On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 3:43:15 AM UTC-7, Peter Howarth wrote:
> On Thursday, 15 March 2018 11:19:06 UTC, rtah...@gmail.com wrote:
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> >
> > Geoffrey de N of Burreth, presumed uncle of Jollan I and who witnessed his marriage in 1175, had a daughter Isabel who m. Rbt Fitzmaldred. Their son Geoffrey of Raby changed his name to de Neville and from him are descended the Lords of Raby, Earls of Westmorland, Salisbury and Warwick. So the Neviles and Nevilles were kinsmen and the Nevile coat of arms, Gules, a saltire ermine, is a variant on the plain saltire of the Nevilles.
> >
> Whilst I can't stand in for John Watson to answer your genealogical queries, I can point out that there are problems with treating the arms of Neville of Pickhill (gules, a saltire ermine) as being derived genealogically from Neville of Raby (gules, a saltire argent), because the saltire did not come from the Nevilles of Ashby and Burreth but from Robert fitz Meldred of Raby.
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> Geoffrey de Neville of Burreth, the presumed uncle of Jollan I of Pickhill, had a son Henry. This Henry de Neville (d.1227 s.p.), of Ashby, used a seal with a device, not on a shield, of a lymphad (a galley with a sail).[1] This is a canting device, OFr 'nef', or ship. Whereas Robert fitz Meldred of Raby used seals with a shield charged with a saltire.[2]
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> Robert fitz Meldred and Isabel, daughter of Geoffrey de Neville of Burreth and sister of Henry of Ashby, had a son called Geoffrey, who had possession of some of his mother's lands, who adopted his mother's surname, and who died c.1242 v.p. He appears in Grimaldi's Roll, which includes items copied from an earlier roll of c.1240-42. There he is given the arms 'or, a lymphad sable'.[3] These were the original Neville arms.
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> Geoffrey's son, Robert, who inherited Raby when his grandfather died, bore his grandfather's arms, 'gules, a saltire argent.'[4] His brother, Geoffrey of Hornby, reversed the tinctures and bore 'argent, a saltire gules'.[5]
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> When looking for evidence of arms for Neville of Pickhill, there is not much available. There is a plaster cast with an ermine saltire, SIGILLVM THOME DE NEVILE, which Birch dates to 1314.[6] But if that date is correct it is some twenty years too early for Thomas of Pickhill, who succeeded after 1331. Steen Clemmensen says that the Ashmolean Roll of about 1334 has 'gules, a saltire ermine' for 'Monsr Neuill',[7] even though there is no entry for it in the Dictionary of British Arms, iv. p 364 under 'Gu a salt Erm'. Both of those entries could as easily refer to a younger son of Raby as to a Neville of Pickhill. Thomas Jenyns’ Book (c.1350-1410) TJ 392 refers to 'Monsr Robert Neville de Pikale', which is the earliest evidence that definitely refers to Neville of Pickhill. We are then left with some later references, mostly from Tudor times, to an ermine saltire for Neville of Pickhill, or Notts, or Leics, or Rykal, or nowhere specific.
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> All of this suggests that the Pickhill branch chose their arms much later than the Nevilles of Raby and wanted to look as though they were closely related to the more important branch. Unfortunately, they didn't realise that the saltire represented Raby rather than Neville.
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> Peter Howarth
>
> [1] seal: n.d., C H Hunter-Blair, ‘Seals of Northumberland and Durham’, no. 557
> [2] seals: (i) n.d., illustrated 'Durham Cathedral Muniments, Catalogue of the Medieval Seals', ed. W. Greenwell and C. H. Hunter Blair, Durham University Library GB-0033-DCD, http://reed.dur.ac.uk/xtf/view?docId=ead/dcd/dcdmseal.xml no. 1742; (ii) 13th c., W G Birch, 'Catalogue of Seals in the British Museum', no. 9746
> [3] Grimaldi’s Roll (c.1350) P 120
> [4] Glover’s Roll (c.1253) B 59, Walford’s Roll (c.1275) C 135, Heralds’ Roll (c.1279) HE 605, Dering Roll (c.1280) A 200, St George’s Roll (c.1285) E 198, Segar’s Roll (c.1285) G 180
> [5] Walford’s Roll (c.1275) C 58, St George’s Roll (c.1285) E 236, Collins’ Roll (c.1296) Q 111
> [6] W G Birch, 'Catalogue of Seals in the British Museum', no. 12156
> [7] Ashmolean Roll (c.1334) AS 463, in S Clemmensen, 'Ordinary of Medieval Armorials', Microsoft Access database, version 2.1 (2017) Copenhagen: http://www.armorial.dk/

Hi, I have a connection to Robert Nevill of Rolaston, who had a son George Nevill b 1518, who married and became Neville of Grove, which is the same place, Thorsby, Nottingham. I noted this stops with Robert 1376, so I appear to be missing about 100 years or so. Can anyone tell me what I am missing? Thanks a lot. I appreciate the assistance here tremendously.