This was prompted by an earlier discussion about the Robertians.

Who was the mother of Hugh the Great [d956]?

This seems like an easy q to answer, as in 931 Hugh names his late parents
as Robert and Beatrice. Whats confusing me is that on many different
websites including wiki, it says Roberts first wife was Aelis [ref to
Europaische stamtafeln series, vol 2, 10] and his 2nd was Beatrice of
Vermandois dau of Heribert I who was the mother of Hugh the Great.

However the evidence suggests Beatrice was Roberts first wife, and Aelis of Vermandois his 2nd.

That is Robert married firstly Beatrice who was the mother of both HG
[d956] and presumably also a daughter who married Heribert II, and perhaps
HGs sister Emma as well [d934] wife of King Raoul [d936], and then Robert
married this Aelis, [although its seems her name was Adela] sometime
around or before 907.

As I understand it a number of sources say that Robert married a sister of
Heribert II without naming her and that Heribert II married a daughter of
Robert. This daughter was the mother of Heribert IIs children but her name
is also never mentioned by contemporary sources but is assumed
to be Adela like her daughter who married the count of Flanders. She was
alive in 931.

As many lines lead from these 2 women it seems important to sort this out,
not least because if the reverse is true, then it means the Capetians had
Carolingian ancestry in the Xe, something it seems chroniclers thought they
lacked until Louis VIII [or was it VI?].

Mike

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:42:18 AM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
> This was prompted by an earlier discussion about the Robertians.
>
> Who was the mother of Hugh the Great [d956]?
>
> This seems like an easy q to answer, as in 931 Hugh names his late parents
> as Robert and Beatrice. Whats confusing me is that on many different
> websites including wiki, it says Roberts first wife was Aelis [ref to
> Europaische stamtafeln series, vol 2, 10] and his 2nd was Beatrice of
> Vermandois dau of Heribert I who was the mother of Hugh the Great.
>
> However the evidence suggests Beatrice was Roberts first wife, and Aelis of Vermandois his 2nd.
>
> That is Robert married firstly Beatrice who was the mother of both HG
> [d956] and presumably also a daughter who married Heribert II, and perhaps
> HGs sister Emma as well [d934] wife of King Raoul [d936], and then Robert
> married this Aelis, [although its seems her name was Adela] sometime
> around or before 907.
>
> As I understand it a number of sources say that Robert married a sister of
> Heribert II without naming her and that Heribert II married a daughter of
> Robert. This daughter was the mother of Heribert IIs children but her name
> is also never mentioned by contemporary sources but is assumed
> to be Adela like her daughter who married the count of Flanders. She was
> alive in 931.
>
> As many lines lead from these 2 women it seems important to sort this out,
> not least because if the reverse is true, then it means the Capetians had
> Carolingian ancestry in the Xe, something it seems chroniclers thought they
> lacked until Louis VIII [or was it VI?].

This matter is discussed on the "Henry Project" pages for Robert I and Beatrix.

https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/rober101.htm
https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/beatr001.htm

Stewart Baldwin

On 26-Jul-22 6:42 PM, mike davis wrote:
> This was prompted by an earlier discussion about the Robertians.
>
> Who was the mother of Hugh the Great [d956]?
>
> This seems like an easy q to answer, as in 931 Hugh names his late parents
> as Robert and Beatrice. Whats confusing me is that on many different
> websites including wiki, it says Roberts first wife was Aelis [ref to
> Europaische stamtafeln series, vol 2, 10] and his 2nd was Beatrice of
> Vermandois dau of Heribert I who was the mother of Hugh the Great.
>
> However the evidence suggests Beatrice was Roberts first wife, and Aelis of Vermandois his 2nd.
>
> That is Robert married firstly Beatrice who was the mother of both HG
> [d956] and presumably also a daughter who married Heribert II, and perhaps
> HGs sister Emma as well [d934] wife of King Raoul [d936], and then Robert
> married this Aelis, [although its seems her name was Adela] sometime
> around or before 907.

This confusion may be due to contradictory assertions in Christian
Settipani's _La préhistoire des Capétiens_ (1993): on p. 389 Emma is
described as "fille de Rodbert, duc des Francs, et de Béatrix de
Vermandois", but on p. 408 Emma is placed as the second daughter "du
premier lit", whose mother is given on p. 406 as "Ne, d'origine inconnue".

> As I understand it a number of sources say that Robert married a sister of
> Heribert II without naming her and that Heribert II married a daughter of
> Robert. This daughter was the mother of Heribert IIs children but her name
> is also never mentioned by contemporary sources but is assumed
> to be Adela like her daughter who married the count of Flanders. She was
> alive in 931.
>
> As many lines lead from these 2 women it seems important to sort this out,
> not least because if the reverse is true, then it means the Capetians had
> Carolingian ancestry in the Xe, something it seems chroniclers thought they
> lacked until Louis VIII [or was it VI?].

It was Louis VI. As for Beatrix, Stewart Baldwin has provided links to
his concise discussion of the problem in Henry Project pages. A few
further points may be of interest.

First, the name Beatrix was not unexampled in this lady or exclusive to
her descendants and it does not mean "she who blesses" - these old
mistakes were unfortunately repeated by Constance Bouchard. Historians
assuming that whatever they know is all that needs to be known on any
subject can be a menace, although Bouchard usually does better than she
did on this matter.

Beatrix was the name of a Roman martyr of the fourth century whose
relics were translated with those of her brothers from the Generosa
cemetery to a new chapel of St Paul attached to the church of Santa
Bibiana in February 683 under the papacy of Leo II. The name is derived
from 'viatrix', meaning a female wayfarer. There was apparently a minor
cult of St Beatrix in the Berry region, from where Robert's wife perhaps
originated. A namesake of hers was the wife of Acfred II, viscount of
Châtellerault, in the late 10th century - this lady was almost certainly
not descended from Robert and his Beatrix, but may have been related to her.

The charter dated 26 March 931 in which Robert's son Hugo Magnus named
his mother as Beatrix also states that his allod at
Châtillon(-sur-Loire) in the pagus of Bourges had been inherited through
her ("alodum juris nostri, quem ex materna hereditate jure et legaliter
nec non quieto ordine possidere videmur, Castellionum nomine ... situm
in pago Biturigensi"). From Châtillon-sur-Loire it is roughly the same
distance, approximately 80-100 km, to Bourges (south-west), Orléans
(north-west) and Auxerre (north-east).

The charter in which her name is abbreviated as "Be." concerns
restitution by Ebbo of Déols (killed in battle 937) to Saint-Aignan
d'Orléans, paying compensation and an annual rent for the return to him
and his son until their deaths of a villa belonging to the abbey that he
had unjustly taken. This villa had been given to Saint-Aignan by Robert
for the souls of himself and his wife Beatrix along with the welfare of
their son Hugo, suggesting that she and consequently her child may have
had a family connection to the place which Ebbo of Déols later
expropriated and wanted to retain.

If speculation about the possible parentage of Robert's wife Beatrix is
compelling for some, it may be a more plausible bet to guess that she
was the sister or paternal aunt of Ebbo, the greatest lord in Berry of
his time, than to persist in cobbling her together with the Vermandois
family.

Peter Stewart

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 4:06:52 PM UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:42:18 AM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
> > This was prompted by an earlier discussion about the Robertians.
> >
> > Who was the mother of Hugh the Great [d956]?
> >
> > This seems like an easy q to answer, as in 931 Hugh names his late parents
> > as Robert and Beatrice. Whats confusing me is that on many different
> > websites including wiki, it says Roberts first wife was Aelis [ref to
> > Europaische stamtafeln series, vol 2, 10] and his 2nd was Beatrice of
> > Vermandois dau of Heribert I who was the mother of Hugh the Great.
> >
> > However the evidence suggests Beatrice was Roberts first wife, and Aelis of Vermandois his 2nd.
> >
> > That is Robert married firstly Beatrice who was the mother of both HG
> > [d956] and presumably also a daughter who married Heribert II, and perhaps
> > HGs sister Emma as well [d934] wife of King Raoul [d936], and then Robert
> > married this Aelis, [although its seems her name was Adela] sometime
> > around or before 907.
> >
> > As I understand it a number of sources say that Robert married a sister of
> > Heribert II without naming her and that Heribert II married a daughter of
> > Robert. This daughter was the mother of Heribert IIs children but her name
> > is also never mentioned by contemporary sources but is assumed
> > to be Adela like her daughter who married the count of Flanders. She was
> > alive in 931.
> >
> > As many lines lead from these 2 women it seems important to sort this out,
> > not least because if the reverse is true, then it means the Capetians had
> > Carolingian ancestry in the Xe, something it seems chroniclers thought they
> > lacked until Louis VIII [or was it VI?].
> This matter is discussed on the "Henry Project" pages for Robert I and Beatrix.
>
> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/rober101.htm
> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/beatr001.htm
>
> Stewart Baldwin

Yes this seems very clear. The trouble is that on the net, Beatrix mother of Hugo
is assumed everywhere to be the unnamed daugther of Heribert II, and this has
caused a terrible muddle.

Mike

On 29-Jul-22 2:20 AM, mike davis wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 4:06:52 PM UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:42:18 AM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
>>> This was prompted by an earlier discussion about the Robertians.
>>>
>>> Who was the mother of Hugh the Great [d956]?
>>>
>>> This seems like an easy q to answer, as in 931 Hugh names his late parents
>>> as Robert and Beatrice. Whats confusing me is that on many different
>>> websites including wiki, it says Roberts first wife was Aelis [ref to
>>> Europaische stamtafeln series, vol 2, 10] and his 2nd was Beatrice of
>>> Vermandois dau of Heribert I who was the mother of Hugh the Great.
>>>
>>> However the evidence suggests Beatrice was Roberts first wife, and Aelis of Vermandois his 2nd.
>>>
>>> That is Robert married firstly Beatrice who was the mother of both HG
>>> [d956] and presumably also a daughter who married Heribert II, and perhaps
>>> HGs sister Emma as well [d934] wife of King Raoul [d936], and then Robert
>>> married this Aelis, [although its seems her name was Adela] sometime
>>> around or before 907.
>>>
>>> As I understand it a number of sources say that Robert married a sister of
>>> Heribert II without naming her and that Heribert II married a daughter of
>>> Robert. This daughter was the mother of Heribert IIs children but her name
>>> is also never mentioned by contemporary sources but is assumed
>>> to be Adela like her daughter who married the count of Flanders. She was
>>> alive in 931.
>>>
>>> As many lines lead from these 2 women it seems important to sort this out,
>>> not least because if the reverse is true, then it means the Capetians had
>>> Carolingian ancestry in the Xe, something it seems chroniclers thought they
>>> lacked until Louis VIII [or was it VI?].
>> This matter is discussed on the "Henry Project" pages for Robert I and Beatrix.
>>
>> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/rober101.htm
>> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/beatr001.htm
>>
>> Stewart Baldwin
>
> Yes this seems very clear. The trouble is that on the net, Beatrix mother of Hugo
> is assumed everywhere to be the unnamed daugther of Heribert II, and this has
> caused a terrible muddle.

Constance Bouchard wrongly thought that Robert I's wife Beatrix the
first woman recorded with this name and that it was a version of the
Carolingian Berta, which she is called in one source perhaps from the
unfamiliarity of Beatrix. A tendency to link names and persons with the
most familiar similarities/connections that spring to mind has plagued
genealogy from medieval times and is not likely to stop any time soon.
Bouchard claimed that Beatrix is derived from the past participle of the
verb 'beare' (to bless), while noting that the male form of this,
'beator', is absent from Latin sources; she considered that Beatrix was
probably a late, post-classical form. but as pointed out upthread, it is
actually a form of Viatrix that was used from the late-7th century for
the Roman saint, quite probably from a facile association with blessing.

As for the Vermandois muddle, this is now stuck fast in the dried mud of
centuries and will perhaps never be corrected. It was taken up by Du
Bouchet in the 17th century, perhaps from misunderstanding the
early-12th century chronicle of Saint-Pierre-le-Vif from Sens where
Robert is said to have married a sister of Heribert (without naming her)
who was mother to Hugo Magnus ("Habebat enim ipse Rotbertus sororem
istius Herberti in conjugio, de qua ortus est Hugo Magnus"). Robert of
Torigni (not exactly the most reliable oracle for genealogies from the
past) asserted that Hugo Magnus was born to a daughter of Heribert count
of Peronne ("natus ex filia Herberti comitis Paronne").

Although intermarriage between these two families is likely enough, a
simple misunderstanding is plausible, for instance, if the later authors
were taking their information from a document in which Robert was
referred to as 'cognatus' of Heribert, interpreted as meaning
'brother-in-law' when it could have meant his 'father-in-law' - the
latter relationship, alone, is given on the better authority of Flodoard.

Karl Ferdinand Werner noted that Hugo Magnus named his illegitimate son
(later bishop of Auxerre) Heribert; however, it is far from certain that
this bastard child was named for the father's maternal grandfather.
Christian Settipani asserted that the name of Robert I's wife Beatrix
and her filiation as a daughter of Heribert I of Vermandois were
'parfaitement assurés ainsi que l'a montré depuis K.F. Werner'. But
Werner had established only that the name Beatrix was correct, while
failing to substantiate with any credible source his argument from
assumption that she was a daughter of Heribert I of Vermandois. For
evidence that Robert I married twice he relied on the highly dubious
notion that 'germana' used alternately with 'soror' in an act of the
chapter of Saint-Martin de Tours must have meant a paternal half-sister
as opposed to a full sibling of Robert's son Hugo Magnus.

However, examples of the same variation of terms for full siblings can
be found in diplomatic from Touraine, for instance in the undated
foundation charter of Saint-Martin-du-Vieux-Bellême priory: "Odo quoque,
regis Francorum Henrici germanus ... Odo, frater regis Henrici" - Eudes
was undoubtedly the full-brother of King Henri I. There is no solid
evidence - or for that matter any good circumstantial reason from
supposed comparative ages - to hold that Emma was other than a full
sibling to Hugo Magnus, and to the wife of Heribert I of Vermandois.

Peter Stewart

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 29-Jul-22 10:23 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 29-Jul-22 2:20 AM, mike davis wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 4:06:52 PM UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:42:18 AM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
>>>> This was prompted by an earlier discussion about the Robertians.
>>>>
>>>> Who was the mother of Hugh the Great [d956]?
>>>>
>>>> This seems like an easy q to answer, as in 931 Hugh names his late
>>>> parents
>>>> as Robert and Beatrice. Whats confusing me is that on many different
>>>> websites including wiki, it says Roberts first wife was Aelis [ref to
>>>> Europaische stamtafeln series, vol 2, 10] and his 2nd was Beatrice of
>>>> Vermandois dau of Heribert I who was the mother of Hugh the Great.
>>>>
>>>> However the evidence suggests Beatrice was Roberts first wife, and
>>>> Aelis of Vermandois his 2nd.
>>>>
>>>> That is Robert married firstly Beatrice who was the mother of both HG
>>>> [d956] and presumably also a daughter who married Heribert II, and
>>>> perhaps
>>>> HGs sister Emma as well [d934] wife of King Raoul [d936], and then
>>>> Robert
>>>> married this Aelis, [although its seems her name was Adela] sometime
>>>> around or before 907.
>>>>
>>>> As I understand it a number of sources say that Robert married a
>>>> sister of
>>>> Heribert II without naming her and that Heribert II married a
>>>> daughter of
>>>> Robert. This daughter was the mother of Heribert IIs children but
>>>> her name
>>>> is also never mentioned by contemporary sources but is assumed
>>>> to be Adela like her daughter who married the count of Flanders. She
>>>> was
>>>> alive in 931.
>>>>
>>>> As many lines lead from these 2 women it seems important to sort
>>>> this out,
>>>> not least because if the reverse is true, then it means the
>>>> Capetians had
>>>> Carolingian ancestry in the Xe, something it seems chroniclers
>>>> thought they
>>>> lacked until Louis VIII [or was it VI?].
>>> This matter is discussed on the "Henry Project" pages for Robert I
>>> and Beatrix.
>>>
>>> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/rober101.htm
>>> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/beatr001.htm
>>>
>>> Stewart Baldwin
>>
>> Yes this seems very clear. The trouble is that on the net, Beatrix
>> mother of Hugo
>> is assumed everywhere to be the unnamed daugther of Heribert II, and
>> this has
>> caused a terrible muddle.
>
> Constance Bouchard wrongly thought that Robert I's wife Beatrix the
> first woman recorded with this name and that it was a version of the
> Carolingian Berta, which she is called in one source perhaps from the
> unfamiliarity of Beatrix. A tendency to link names and persons with the
> most familiar similarities/connections that spring to mind has plagued
> genealogy from medieval times and is not likely to stop any time soon.
> Bouchard claimed that Beatrix is derived from the past participle of the
> verb 'beare' (to bless), while noting that the male form of this,
> 'beator', is absent from Latin sources; she considered that Beatrix was
> probably a late, post-classical form. but as pointed out upthread, it is
> actually a form of Viatrix that was used from the late-7th century for
> the Roman saint, quite probably from a facile association with blessing.
>
> As for the Vermandois muddle, this is now stuck fast in the dried mud of
> centuries and will perhaps never be corrected. It was taken up by Du
> Bouchet in the 17th century, perhaps from misunderstanding the
> early-12th century chronicle of Saint-Pierre-le-Vif from Sens where
> Robert is said to have married a sister of Heribert (without naming her)
> who was mother to Hugo Magnus ("Habebat enim ipse Rotbertus sororem
> istius Herberti in conjugio, de qua ortus est Hugo Magnus"). Robert of
> Torigni (not exactly the most reliable oracle for genealogies from the
> past) asserted that Hugo Magnus was born to a daughter of Heribert count
> of Peronne ("natus ex filia Herberti comitis Paronne").
>
> Although intermarriage between these two families is likely enough, a
> simple misunderstanding is plausible, for instance, if the later authors
> were taking their information from a document in which Robert was
> referred to as 'cognatus' of Heribert, interpreted as meaning
> 'brother-in-law' when it could have meant his 'father-in-law' - the
> latter relationship, alone, is given on the better authority of Flodoard.
>
> Karl Ferdinand Werner noted that Hugo Magnus named his illegitimate son
> (later bishop of Auxerre) Heribert; however, it is far from certain that
> this bastard child was named for the father's maternal grandfather.
> Christian Settipani asserted that the name of Robert I's wife Beatrix
> and her filiation as a daughter of Heribert I of Vermandois were
> 'parfaitement assurés ainsi que l'a montré depuis K.F. Werner'. But
> Werner had established only that the name Beatrix was correct, while
> failing to substantiate with any credible source his argument from
> assumption that she was a daughter of Heribert I of Vermandois. For
> evidence that Robert I married twice he relied on the highly dubious
> notion that 'germana' used alternately with 'soror' in an act of the
> chapter of Saint-Martin de Tours must have meant a paternal half-sister
> as opposed to a full sibling of Robert's son Hugo Magnus.
>
> However, examples of the same variation of terms for full siblings can
> be found in diplomatic from Touraine, for instance in the undated
> foundation charter of Saint-Martin-du-Vieux-Bellême priory: "Odo quoque,
> regis Francorum Henrici germanus ... Odo, frater regis Henrici" - Eudes
> was undoubtedly the full-brother of King Henri I. There is no solid
> evidence - or for that matter any good circumstantial reason from
> supposed comparative ages - to hold that Emma was other than a full
> sibling to Hugo Magnus, and to the wife of Heribert I of Vermandois.

Make that "to the wife of Heribert II of Vermandois" - and, earlier in
the post above, that "Robert was referred to as 'cognatus' of Heribert
II, interpreted as meaning 'brother-in-law' when it could have meant his
'father-in-law'".

Peter Stewart

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 2:23:02 AM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> On 29-Jul-22 10:23 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > On 29-Jul-22 2:20 AM, mike davis wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 4:06:52 PM UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:42:18 AM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
> >>>> This was prompted by an earlier discussion about the Robertians.
> >>>>
> >>>> Who was the mother of Hugh the Great [d956]?
> >>>>
> >>>> This seems like an easy q to answer, as in 931 Hugh names his late
> >>>> parents
> >>>> as Robert and Beatrice. Whats confusing me is that on many different
> >>>> websites including wiki, it says Roberts first wife was Aelis [ref to
> >>>> Europaische stamtafeln series, vol 2, 10] and his 2nd was Beatrice of
> >>>> Vermandois dau of Heribert I who was the mother of Hugh the Great.
> >>>>
> >>>> However the evidence suggests Beatrice was Roberts first wife, and
> >>>> Aelis of Vermandois his 2nd.
> >>>>
> >>>> That is Robert married firstly Beatrice who was the mother of both HG
> >>>> [d956] and presumably also a daughter who married Heribert II, and
> >>>> perhaps
> >>>> HGs sister Emma as well [d934] wife of King Raoul [d936], and then
> >>>> Robert
> >>>> married this Aelis, [although its seems her name was Adela] sometime
> >>>> around or before 907.
> >>>>
> >>>> As I understand it a number of sources say that Robert married a
> >>>> sister of
> >>>> Heribert II without naming her and that Heribert II married a
> >>>> daughter of
> >>>> Robert. This daughter was the mother of Heribert IIs children but
> >>>> her name
> >>>> is also never mentioned by contemporary sources but is assumed
> >>>> to be Adela like her daughter who married the count of Flanders. She
> >>>> was
> >>>> alive in 931.
> >>>>
> >>>> As many lines lead from these 2 women it seems important to sort
> >>>> this out,
> >>>> not least because if the reverse is true, then it means the
> >>>> Capetians had
> >>>> Carolingian ancestry in the Xe, something it seems chroniclers
> >>>> thought they
> >>>> lacked until Louis VIII [or was it VI?].
> >>> This matter is discussed on the "Henry Project" pages for Robert I
> >>> and Beatrix.
> >>>
> >>> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/rober101.htm
> >>> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/beatr001.htm
> >>>
> >>> Stewart Baldwin
> >>
> >> Yes this seems very clear. The trouble is that on the net, Beatrix
> >> mother of Hugo
> >> is assumed everywhere to be the unnamed daugther of Heribert II, and
> >> this has
> >> caused a terrible muddle.
> >
> > Constance Bouchard wrongly thought that Robert I's wife Beatrix the
> > first woman recorded with this name and that it was a version of the
> > Carolingian Berta, which she is called in one source perhaps from the
> > unfamiliarity of Beatrix. A tendency to link names and persons with the
> > most familiar similarities/connections that spring to mind has plagued
> > genealogy from medieval times and is not likely to stop any time soon.
> > Bouchard claimed that Beatrix is derived from the past participle of the
> > verb 'beare' (to bless), while noting that the male form of this,
> > 'beator', is absent from Latin sources; she considered that Beatrix was
> > probably a late, post-classical form. but as pointed out upthread, it is
> > actually a form of Viatrix that was used from the late-7th century for
> > the Roman saint, quite probably from a facile association with blessing..
> >
> > As for the Vermandois muddle, this is now stuck fast in the dried mud of
> > centuries and will perhaps never be corrected. It was taken up by Du
> > Bouchet in the 17th century, perhaps from misunderstanding the
> > early-12th century chronicle of Saint-Pierre-le-Vif from Sens where
> > Robert is said to have married a sister of Heribert (without naming her)
> > who was mother to Hugo Magnus ("Habebat enim ipse Rotbertus sororem
> > istius Herberti in conjugio, de qua ortus est Hugo Magnus"). Robert of
> > Torigni (not exactly the most reliable oracle for genealogies from the
> > past) asserted that Hugo Magnus was born to a daughter of Heribert count
> > of Peronne ("natus ex filia Herberti comitis Paronne").
> >
> > Although intermarriage between these two families is likely enough, a
> > simple misunderstanding is plausible, for instance, if the later authors
> > were taking their information from a document in which Robert was
> > referred to as 'cognatus' of Heribert, interpreted as meaning
> > 'brother-in-law' when it could have meant his 'father-in-law' - the
> > latter relationship, alone, is given on the better authority of Flodoard.
> >
> > Karl Ferdinand Werner noted that Hugo Magnus named his illegitimate son
> > (later bishop of Auxerre) Heribert; however, it is far from certain that
> > this bastard child was named for the father's maternal grandfather.
> > Christian Settipani asserted that the name of Robert I's wife Beatrix
> > and her filiation as a daughter of Heribert I of Vermandois were
> > 'parfaitement assurés ainsi que l'a montré depuis K.F. Werner'. But
> > Werner had established only that the name Beatrix was correct, while
> > failing to substantiate with any credible source his argument from
> > assumption that she was a daughter of Heribert I of Vermandois. For
> > evidence that Robert I married twice he relied on the highly dubious
> > notion that 'germana' used alternately with 'soror' in an act of the
> > chapter of Saint-Martin de Tours must have meant a paternal half-sister
> > as opposed to a full sibling of Robert's son Hugo Magnus.
> >
> > However, examples of the same variation of terms for full siblings can
> > be found in diplomatic from Touraine, for instance in the undated
> > foundation charter of Saint-Martin-du-Vieux-Bellême priory: "Odo quoque,
> > regis Francorum Henrici germanus ... Odo, frater regis Henrici" - Eudes
> > was undoubtedly the full-brother of King Henri I. There is no solid
> > evidence - or for that matter any good circumstantial reason from
> > supposed comparative ages - to hold that Emma was other than a full
> > sibling to Hugo Magnus, and to the wife of Heribert I of Vermandois.
> Make that "to the wife of Heribert II of Vermandois" - and, earlier in
> the post above, that "Robert was referred to as 'cognatus' of Heribert
> II, interpreted as meaning 'brother-in-law' when it could have meant his
> 'father-in-law'".
> Peter Stewart
>

Many people rely on the tables in Europaisches Studien, and that has enshrined Beatrix as dau of Heribert I
[the ref from wiki is Vol 2, tafel10/11] as well as wiki. Is it correct to say that as neither of Roberts wives
appear in his existing charters and documents, they both must have died by the time he was elected king
in 922? Some seem to believe that Beatrix/Beatrice was still alive in 931, because the charter where she
is named by her son only uses quondam for Robert I.

Clearly Hugo was not a child in 922 as he was offered the crown and had been married since c914,
and this seems to have led a number of historiansc into a further muddle, that of the identity of
the Countess Adela who appears with Robert in 907. I dunno if Settipani is alone in this, but making this
Countess Adela the daugther rather than the 2nd wife of Robert I, has created a 2nd muddle.

Mike

On 05-Aug-22 9:45 PM, mike davis wrote:
> On Friday, July 29, 2022 at 2:23:02 AM UTC+1, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
>> On 29-Jul-22 10:23 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>> On 29-Jul-22 2:20 AM, mike davis wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 4:06:52 PM UTC+1, Stewart Baldwin wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:42:18 AM UTC-5, mike davis wrote:
>>>>>> This was prompted by an earlier discussion about the Robertians.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Who was the mother of Hugh the Great [d956]?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This seems like an easy q to answer, as in 931 Hugh names his late
>>>>>> parents
>>>>>> as Robert and Beatrice. Whats confusing me is that on many different
>>>>>> websites including wiki, it says Roberts first wife was Aelis [ref to
>>>>>> Europaische stamtafeln series, vol 2, 10] and his 2nd was Beatrice of
>>>>>> Vermandois dau of Heribert I who was the mother of Hugh the Great.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However the evidence suggests Beatrice was Roberts first wife, and
>>>>>> Aelis of Vermandois his 2nd.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is Robert married firstly Beatrice who was the mother of both HG
>>>>>> [d956] and presumably also a daughter who married Heribert II, and
>>>>>> perhaps
>>>>>> HGs sister Emma as well [d934] wife of King Raoul [d936], and then
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>> married this Aelis, [although its seems her name was Adela] sometime
>>>>>> around or before 907.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I understand it a number of sources say that Robert married a
>>>>>> sister of
>>>>>> Heribert II without naming her and that Heribert II married a
>>>>>> daughter of
>>>>>> Robert. This daughter was the mother of Heribert IIs children but
>>>>>> her name
>>>>>> is also never mentioned by contemporary sources but is assumed
>>>>>> to be Adela like her daughter who married the count of Flanders. She
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> alive in 931.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As many lines lead from these 2 women it seems important to sort
>>>>>> this out,
>>>>>> not least because if the reverse is true, then it means the
>>>>>> Capetians had
>>>>>> Carolingian ancestry in the Xe, something it seems chroniclers
>>>>>> thought they
>>>>>> lacked until Louis VIII [or was it VI?].
>>>>> This matter is discussed on the "Henry Project" pages for Robert I
>>>>> and Beatrix.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/rober101.htm
>>>>> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/beatr001.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> Stewart Baldwin
>>>>
>>>> Yes this seems very clear. The trouble is that on the net, Beatrix
>>>> mother of Hugo
>>>> is assumed everywhere to be the unnamed daugther of Heribert II, and
>>>> this has
>>>> caused a terrible muddle.
>>>
>>> Constance Bouchard wrongly thought that Robert I's wife Beatrix the
>>> first woman recorded with this name and that it was a version of the
>>> Carolingian Berta, which she is called in one source perhaps from the
>>> unfamiliarity of Beatrix. A tendency to link names and persons with the
>>> most familiar similarities/connections that spring to mind has plagued
>>> genealogy from medieval times and is not likely to stop any time soon.
>>> Bouchard claimed that Beatrix is derived from the past participle of the
>>> verb 'beare' (to bless), while noting that the male form of this,
>>> 'beator', is absent from Latin sources; she considered that Beatrix was
>>> probably a late, post-classical form. but as pointed out upthread, it is
>>> actually a form of Viatrix that was used from the late-7th century for
>>> the Roman saint, quite probably from a facile association with blessing.
>>>
>>> As for the Vermandois muddle, this is now stuck fast in the dried mud of
>>> centuries and will perhaps never be corrected. It was taken up by Du
>>> Bouchet in the 17th century, perhaps from misunderstanding the
>>> early-12th century chronicle of Saint-Pierre-le-Vif from Sens where
>>> Robert is said to have married a sister of Heribert (without naming her)
>>> who was mother to Hugo Magnus ("Habebat enim ipse Rotbertus sororem
>>> istius Herberti in conjugio, de qua ortus est Hugo Magnus"). Robert of
>>> Torigni (not exactly the most reliable oracle for genealogies from the
>>> past) asserted that Hugo Magnus was born to a daughter of Heribert count
>>> of Peronne ("natus ex filia Herberti comitis Paronne").
>>>
>>> Although intermarriage between these two families is likely enough, a
>>> simple misunderstanding is plausible, for instance, if the later authors
>>> were taking their information from a document in which Robert was
>>> referred to as 'cognatus' of Heribert, interpreted as meaning
>>> 'brother-in-law' when it could have meant his 'father-in-law' - the
>>> latter relationship, alone, is given on the better authority of Flodoard.
>>>
>>> Karl Ferdinand Werner noted that Hugo Magnus named his illegitimate son
>>> (later bishop of Auxerre) Heribert; however, it is far from certain that
>>> this bastard child was named for the father's maternal grandfather.
>>> Christian Settipani asserted that the name of Robert I's wife Beatrix
>>> and her filiation as a daughter of Heribert I of Vermandois were
>>> 'parfaitement assurés ainsi que l'a montré depuis K.F. Werner'. But
>>> Werner had established only that the name Beatrix was correct, while
>>> failing to substantiate with any credible source his argument from
>>> assumption that she was a daughter of Heribert I of Vermandois. For
>>> evidence that Robert I married twice he relied on the highly dubious
>>> notion that 'germana' used alternately with 'soror' in an act of the
>>> chapter of Saint-Martin de Tours must have meant a paternal half-sister
>>> as opposed to a full sibling of Robert's son Hugo Magnus.
>>>
>>> However, examples of the same variation of terms for full siblings can
>>> be found in diplomatic from Touraine, for instance in the undated
>>> foundation charter of Saint-Martin-du-Vieux-Bellême priory: "Odo quoque,
>>> regis Francorum Henrici germanus ... Odo, frater regis Henrici" - Eudes
>>> was undoubtedly the full-brother of King Henri I. There is no solid
>>> evidence - or for that matter any good circumstantial reason from
>>> supposed comparative ages - to hold that Emma was other than a full
>>> sibling to Hugo Magnus, and to the wife of Heribert I of Vermandois.
>> Make that "to the wife of Heribert II of Vermandois" - and, earlier in
>> the post above, that "Robert was referred to as 'cognatus' of Heribert
>> II, interpreted as meaning 'brother-in-law' when it could have meant his
>> 'father-in-law'".
>> Peter Stewart
>>
>
> Many people rely on the tables in Europaisches Studien, and that has enshrined Beatrix as dau of Heribert I
> [the ref from wiki is Vol 2, tafel10/11] as well as wiki. Is it correct to say that as neither of Roberts wives
> appear in his existing charters and documents, they both must have died by the time he was elected king
> in 922? Some seem to believe that Beatrix/Beatrice was still alive in 931, because the charter where she
> is named by her son only uses quondam for Robert I.

There is only one existing act of Robert I's reign, and it's hardly
surprising that his wife does not occur in a single document - assuming
he had one living at the the time (January 923). As for Beatrice not
being qualified as 'quondam', her death would not have been a matter of
official concern in 931 if she had died before Robert occurred along
with Adela in 907. Hugo called his father 'Robertus quondam rex',
probably meaning 'Robert the former king' rather than 'the deceased king
Robert'. He called his mother simply 'domina Beatrix', not 'Beatrix
regina' as she would have been if surviving until Robert had become king
in 922.