On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 14:35:13 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 4:17:10 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>> On 12/23/2021 2:51 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>
>> > Yes, I'm all set, but I'm still interested in knowing what an extra $75 gets me.
>> > In my experience, the Empire is more than "decent".
>> You write that as though they are all the same. %-)
>
>You write that as though you haven't read any of my other posts in this
>thread. %-)
>
>I've already posted about the differences between the Empires and the
>set from Lee Valley. That's what started this thread. I know that they
>aren't all the same.
>
>What I've asked (twice) is "What is the difference between a $14 Empire
>and $90+ Starrett combo squares?" Haven't seen that answer yet.

$76, of course.

I haven't been impressed with Starrett for some time. I look at their
stuff at Highland when I'm there. Woodpeckers is made better and no
more expensive (for their product overlap, of course). It seems that
they're just trading on their name.

On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 17:08:16 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
<nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

>"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
>news:18a1c708-d638-4f0c-9873-35e6fcc8dcfen@googlegroups.com...
>
>>On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin
>>wrote:
>>> "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
>>> news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
>>> >I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
>>> >right away.
>>> Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)
>>>
>>> Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp
>>> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it
>>> passes.
>>> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the
>>> hole
>>> and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
>>> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a
>>> Starrett.
>
>>Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a
>>$90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
>
>>I don't need metric, I don't need 1/64". The Empire (1/8", 1/16", 1/32")
>>has served
>>me well for I don't know how long (over a decade, at least). AFAIK, I've
>>never been
>>bit by the Empire, so what does the extra cost get me?
>
>>I've still got time before Christmas. ;-)
>
>Smoothness right out of the box. Easy to read scales. Dead accurate for
>machine set up (e.g., blade stops/fence stops/tilting bed stops, etc.).
>It's kind of like using a L-N plane vs. a new Stanley plane... you see and
>feel the difference.
>
>They make them with scales in 64ths and they have what they call "quick
>reading" 32nds and 64ths.
>
>Do you absolutely need something this fine for woodworking itself? No, not
>really, a decent wooden try square and dividers or a compass could
>substitute. After 40+ years the decent one I got for Christmas as a kid was
>pretty well shot--my father was a journeyman tool a die maker in the '50s
>and '60s so it made sense to him to get me a decent one. I had the money so
>I got the Starrett maybe 10-12 years ago. The old one resides in my
>carpentry tool box as it still has utility for carpentry when used with a
>pencil. The Starrett resides in my shop's precision tool drawer with
>calibers, dial gauges, etc. and is used for metal and woodworking and tool
>set ups.
>
>P.S., It doesn't hurt to treat yourself occasionally. Back in the '80s I did
>a 3.5 month solo bicycle trip all over the east coast. While in FL I met a
>lot of middle aged and older people who were curious about my loaded down
>bicycle and what I was doing. I heard a lot of stories that started out with
>"I always wanted to..." None of those desires were carried out by the story
>tellers and there was disappointment in a lot of voices. It gave me a
>different perspective on life than I would have had otherwise. You need to
>take care of yourself.

Buy once. Cry once. I'm in the process of throwing away a pile of crap
tools (most of) which I thought were decent when I bought them. The
sanders I put in the trash tonight were always junk. Everything has
been replaced by quality. It makes a difference.

On 12/22/2021 11:53 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 10:45:48 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 12/21/2021 4:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> I've been using a combination square from Empire for years. Last month
>>> I was working with my daughter's boyfriend at her house and he said that
>>> he never used one of them before. (He works for his dad's concrete
>>> company. He's really handy, just doesn't do much precision work.)
>>>
>>> So I figured I'd get him a combination square for Christmas. Coincidentally,
>>> Lee Valley sent me an email for this set, so I bought one for him, and
>>> thinking that they might be a step up from my old Empire, I bought a set for
>>> myself.
>>>
>>> https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555
>>>
>>> https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares
>>>
>>> Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
>>> barely helped.
>>>
>>> Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I
>>> ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
>>> that's what I'm going to give him instead.
>>>
>>> They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
>>> Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective.
>>> Not in this case they aren't.
>> As Scott has mentioned, if the nut, that is loosened to allow the rule
>> to slide,is spring loaded, try loosening the nut and pushing it toward
>> the rule. While the nut is loose, the bolt that grabs the rule may
>> still be under tension from the spring.
>>
>
> Yes, the nut is spring loaded. Every combination square I've ever had had
> a spring loaded nut.
>
> I just tested my Empires against the two from Lee Valley. On the Empires, the
> rules slide easily with the slightest loosening of the nut. On the LV units, there
> is substantial drag. Pushing up on the nut on all units does make all of them
> slide easier, but the relative difference between the Empires and the LV's is still
> present. IOW, on the Empires (both the old and new one) there is no need to push
> up on the nut to get an easy slide, but a somewhat higher, but not needed, level
> of ease can be obtained by pushing up on the nut.
>
> In order to get the LV rules to slide even close to as easy as the Empires, I
> have to loosen the nuts to point where the rule is flopping around in the head
> *and* then push up on the nut. That is not something I would want to do as a
> everyday practice.
>
>> FWIW I have a Woodpeckers indexable combination square and I have to
>> push in on the nut, after loosening it, to slide the rule.
>
> Could that be due to the indexing feature? How does the indexing feature work?
> I assume it somehow locks into the stampings, correct?

Oddly the fixing screw that tightens against the rule is relatively ball
shaped, it kinda wedges into the edge of the groove in the rule. The
indexing pin goes into a hole and fixes confidently and with out any
play. BUT moving the rule is crotchety.

>
> Do you have other combo squares that don't require pushing up on the nut?
>
no All require the nut/screw to be pushed to relieve the tension and
release the rule. And or until there is no tension on the nut.

On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
>> news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
>>> I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
>>> right away.
>> Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)
>>
>> Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp
>> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
>> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
>> and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
>> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.
>
> Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a
> $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?

Longevity of accuracy.

>
> I don't need metric, I don't need 1/64". The Empire (1/8", 1/16", 1/32") has served
> me well for I don't know how long (over a decade, at least). AFAIK, I've never been
> bit by the Empire, so what does the extra cost get me?
>
> I've still got time before Christmas. ;-)

On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> >> "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
> >> news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
> >>> I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
> >>> right away.
> >> Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)
> >>
> >> Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp
> >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
> >> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
> >> and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
> >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.
> >
> > Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a
> > $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
> Longevity of accuracy.
> >

And how has the accuracy of my old Empire changed?

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:ec7a03f6-7cef-473b-bb11-28910b739c32n@googlegroups.com...

>On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:08:26 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:

>> Back in the '80s I did
>> a 3.5 month solo bicycle trip all over the east coast. While in FL I met
>> a
>> lot of middle aged and older people who were curious about my loaded down
>> bicycle and what I was doing. I heard a lot of stories that started out
>> with
>> "I always wanted to..." None of those desires were carried out by the
>> story
>> tellers and there was disappointment in a lot of voices. It gave me a
>> different perspective on life than I would have had otherwise. You need
>> to
>> take care of yourself.

>While I haven't done *everything* I've said I wanted to do (has anyone?)
>I've done
>enough that I could die tonight with no regrets.

No regrets is a worthy goal. Sometimes it's nice for someone to remind me
that I've had a lot of great adventuring in my life. Some of that
adventuring was in my shop as I tried and conquered new things. I don't feel
that I'm done, but yeah, I've got no regrets either.

I do appreciate nice handtools... I have a lot of L-N tools (planes, saws,
spoke shaves, screw drivers, card scrapers...) and appreciate the quality
and the feel of the tools. Just last week I gave my son a set of my
functionally duplicate planes, spoke shaves, calipers, sliding bevel gauge,
and a combination square so he could have a good start.... The planes
included block, low angle block, No 4, No 5, and No 22 (Millers Falls
equivalent of a No 7). That No 22 was my grandfather's. The block plane was
my friend's grandfather's. Her father told me he wanted me to have his tools
a week or so before he died. He told his family on his death bed to give me
all his tools and his father's tools as he wanted them to be used. He didn't
know anyone else who even knew how to use them... Both men were union
carpenters from the early to late-mid 1900s. The bevel gauge was my friend's
great-grandfather's and has late 19th century patent dates. All those tools
were well tuned and in fine working condition. It took me decades to "build
my shop" and I've helped my 26 year old son get off to a good start. He's
also got my old Jet contractor's saw, the one I replaced with a Jet cabinet
saw. I gave him a bunch of books today. Like my friend's father, I want to
see the stuff used... I don't want to have a museum here! I also appreciate
the extra room I now have!

Anyhow, you wouldn't regret owning a Starrett combination square even if you
don't "need" it. I should have mentioned that with the heat treatment they
receive they should hold their accuracy much better than the mild steel and
cast iron of lessor squares. As I recall Starrett makes forged and cast
versions if you want to get really picky. ;~)

On 12/23/2021 8:10 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

>> Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a
>> $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
>
> Longevity of accuracy.

I use my Dads Lufkin #65 and have been for 45 years. Before that, I
never remember my Dad not using this square so it is likely over 70
years old. It's my most used tool and it has been dropped on to cement
floors 100's of times and undoubtedly from many roof tops as well. It
still is smooth as glass and perfectly square. Made in the USA in
Saginaw Michigan when the US still made stuff.

You can find them on Ebay for around $30.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> writes:
>On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> >> "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
>> >> news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
>> >>> I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
>> >>> right away.
>> >> Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)
>> >>
>> >> Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp
>> >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
>> >> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
>> >> and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
>> >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.
>> >
>> > Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a
>> > $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
>> Longevity of accuracy.
>> >
>
>And how has the accuracy of my old Empire changed?

Last time I checked Empire (and modern Stanley) combo squares, not one of the ones that I
checked was actually, you know, square.

I was fortunate to acquire a starrett set (regular head, center finder,
protactor head) with a 12" and 24" blade for free; they're dead on square
regardless of the blade position.

On 12/23/2021 5:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 4:17:10 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
>> On 12/23/2021 2:51 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I'm all set, but I'm still interested in knowing what an extra $75 gets me.
>>> In my experience, the Empire is more than "decent".
>> You write that as though they are all the same. %-)
>
> You write that as though you haven't read any of my other posts in this
> thread. %-)

Sorry, it's true that I didn't read them all. I'll try to make up for
that and see what I missed.

On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 2:54:42 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555
>
> https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares
>
> Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
> barely helped.
>
> Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I
> ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
> that's what I'm going to give him instead.
>
> They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
> Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective.
> Not in this case they aren't.

Somewhere, someone in a factory messed up. It happens. I've got Starrett
combo squares that are excellent, but ONE of them is 'way off of square).

If it's sticky, it's probably a burr or a bit of foreign material; a hand stone rubbed on
the burr will fix the problem, you just have to inspect a lot of surfaces and edges.
Less likely, something is bent; inspection for a curve is not difficult, but it's not
as fix-able (I've got a dial indicator that sticks, unless I apply stress; it's retired
now).

On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 8:08:23 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 2:54:42 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> > https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555
> >
> > https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares
> >
> > Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
> > barely helped.
> >
> > Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I
> > ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
> > that's what I'm going to give him instead.
> >
> > They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
> > Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective.
> > Not in this case they aren't.
> Somewhere, someone in a factory messed up. It happens. I've got Starrett
> combo squares that are excellent, but ONE of them is 'way off of square).
>
> If it's sticky, it's probably a burr or a bit of foreign material; a hand stone rubbed on
> the burr will fix the problem, you just have to inspect a lot of surfaces and edges.
> Less likely, something is bent; inspection for a curve is not difficult, but it's not
> as fix-able (I've got a dial indicator that sticks, unless I apply stress; it's retired
> now).

Everything you've said is 100% true, except for your use of "it's". In reality the correct
word is "they". The boxed set includes a 12" square and a 6" square. They both exhibit
the same resistance to sliding. Exactly. I even swapped heads, to no benefit.

If the problem is a burr or a piece of foreign material, it's common to both squares,
leading me to lean towards a manufacturing issue - unless that's how they want them
to operate. I don't want them to operate them that way, so I'm going to see about
returning them.

I do have 2 more squares that I can compare them to because I bought a set as a gift
and a set for myself. I need to check the LV return policy. If opening the package voids the
return, I'm not going to open the other set just to test them.

On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> >> "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
> >> news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
> >>> I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
> >>> right away.
> >> Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)
> >>
> >> Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp
> >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
> >> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
> >> and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
> >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.
> >
> > Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a
> > $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
> Longevity of accuracy.

An explanation of your answer and a whole lot more...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKRi9geL8mg

How to tune up a combo square...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCxIg1lQ8pw

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:04a48dac-0681-4933-b887-473fb979eeefn@googlegroups.com...

>On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin
>> > wrote:
>> >> "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
>> >> news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
>> >>> I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that
>> >>> works
>> >>> right away.
>> >> Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)
>> >>
>> >> Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the
>> >> clamp
>> >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it
>> >> passes.
>> >> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the
>> >> hole
>> >> and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole
>> >> could
>> >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a
>> >> Starrett.
>> >
>> > Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does
>> > a
>> > $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
>> Longevity of accuracy.
>
>An explanation of your answer and a whole lot more...
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKRi9geL8mg
>
>How to tune up a combo square...
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCxIg1lQ8pw

More related to my second comment on this topic, but yes, he did touch on
key quality issues. Regarding the tuning... I'm more of a file and stone
guy for this type of tuning as the sandpaper often hits surfaces you don't
want hit... but sandpaper (more appropriately various grades of emery cloth)
could work too.

After all that, did you change your order? ;~)

On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 09:37:30 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

>On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>> >> "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
>> >> news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
>> >>> I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
>> >>> right away.
>> >> Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)
>> >>
>> >> Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp
>> >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
>> >> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
>> >> and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
>> >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.
>> >
>> > Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a
>> > $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
>> Longevity of accuracy.
>
>An explanation of your answer and a whole lot more...
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKRi9geL8mg

I looked at my ten or fifteen year old Empires last night. They have
a lot of the "defects" in this video. The ends were polished but the
groves did have wavies. They're square, though.

I didn't have much of a reference point for sliding. While the action
isn't exactly ball bearing-like, they move OK. I was at the BORG
today and tried a couple of their Empires. Wow! They might just as
well have glue in the mechanism. It would be really hard to set the
length accurately.
>
>How to tune up a combo square...
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCxIg1lQ8pw

wrote in message news:grnhsgh83jhlji57rs1s6nadq5gic187vj@4ax.com...

>I looked at my ten or fifteen year old Empires last night. They have
>a lot of the "defects" in this video. The ends were polished but the
>groves did have wavies. They're square, though.

>I didn't have much of a reference point for sliding. While the action
>isn't exactly ball bearing-like, they move OK. I was at the BORG
>today and tried a couple of their Empires. Wow! They might just as
>well have glue in the mechanism. It would be really hard to set the
>length accurately.

Now that you have some reference points they'll probably bug you. ;~)

On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 4:39:12 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 09:37:30 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
> <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> >> On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> > On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> >> >> "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
> >> >> news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
> >> >>> I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
> >> >>> right away.
> >> >> Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)
> >> >>
> >> >> Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp
> >> >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
> >> >> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
> >> >> and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
> >> >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.
> >> >
> >> > Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a
> >> > $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
> >> Longevity of accuracy.
> >
> >An explanation of your answer and a whole lot more...
> >
> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKRi9geL8mg
> I looked at my ten or fifteen year old Empires last night. They have
> a lot of the "defects" in this video. The ends were polished but the
> groves did have wavies. They're square, though.
>
> I didn't have much of a reference point for sliding. While the action
> isn't exactly ball bearing-like, they move OK. I was at the BORG
> today and tried a couple of their Empires. Wow! They might just as
> well have glue in the mechanism. It would be really hard to set the
> length accurately.
> >

That's interesting. That's how I feel about the LV combo squares, (really
hard to set) yet the Empires I bought on Amazon, as well an my old Empire,
slide like butter.

I'll have to try one at HD next time I'm there.