Dear Group:
I am trying to determine the correct parentage of John Twynyho MP died @1475-1485. He was married to a Joan Corbett.

I have seen him listed as a son of William Twynyho and Ankaret Hawkeston.

However I have also read that the William listed as his father was his brother married to Ankaret.

Thanks in advance for any clarification!

Regards:
Loren

In the Visitation of Gloucester there are two John Twynyhos. John Twynyho of Cirencester and Bristol (the MP) is the brother of William Twynyho (married to Ankaret Hawkston). William and Ankaret had a son, John Twynyho of Kayford.

https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00inchit/page/262/mode/2up?view=theater

On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 3:33:45 AM UTC-4, vance...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In the Visitation of Gloucester there are two John Twynyhos. John Twynyho of Cirencester and Bristol (the MP) is the brother of William Twynyho (married to Ankaret Hawkston). William and Ankaret had a son, John Twynyho of Kayford.
>
> https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00inchit/page/262/mode/2up?view=theater
I have the John Twynyho, MP (d. 1485) married to Agnes and Eleanor Tailboys.. I do not have Joan Corbet as a wife. I have his father as John and his mother as Joan de Cobyndon. I have his daughter Alice married to John Tame. I do not have specific refences in my tree software, but will check my "manual" files. My notes on William and Ankaret show her as executed without trial or reason by George Duke of Clarence and that her heir was Roger son of their son John. Two different Johns.

On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 11:52:45 PM UTC-4, jma...@msn.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 15, 2022 at 3:33:45 AM UTC-4, vance...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > In the Visitation of Gloucester there are two John Twynyhos. John Twynyho of Cirencester and Bristol (the MP) is the brother of William Twynyho (married to Ankaret Hawkston). William and Ankaret had a son, John Twynyho of Kayford.
> >
> > https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00inchit/page/262/mode/2up?view=theater
> I have the John Twynyho, MP (d. 1485) married to Agnes and Eleanor Tailboys. I do not have Joan Corbet as a wife. I have his father as John and his mother as Joan de Cobyndon. I have his daughter Alice married to John Tame. I do not have specific refences in my tree software, but will check my "manual" files. My notes on William and Ankaret show her as executed without trial or reason by George Duke of Clarence and that her heir was Roger son of their son John. Two different Johns.
Not much to add from my notes other than quoting a number of deeds etc that support a John married to Agnes in the right time and place to be the mp. I also noted some doubt if the MP's daughter or sister married John Tame. Finally, the John who married Joan Corbet seems to be the son of William and Ankaret and father of Roger, not the MP.

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/t2vEU_tLLxc

George Morris 4:450 cites:
“13 Aug 4E4 Wm Twynyho & Ankaret his wife to John Twynyho their son &
Johanna (Jane) his wife daughter of Roger Corbet of Morton & Elizabeth
his wife – grant of the manor of Hawkestone”

This source is not freely available online, but can be ordered from the Shropshire Archives here:

https://www.shropshirearchives.org.uk/collections/pedigrees/

According to the Visitation of Gloucester, cited above, as well as the Visitation of Somerset, which contains mostly the same information, the father of John Twynyho of Cirencester was William.

https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou00beno/page/132/mode/2up?view=theater

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 6:06:30 AM UTC-4, vance...@yahoo.com wrote:
> According to the Visitation of Gloucester, cited above, as well as the Visitation of Somerset, which contains mostly the same information, the father of John Twynyho of Cirencester was William.
>
> https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou00beno/page/132/mode/2up?view=theater

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 6:06:30 AM UTC-4, vance...@yahoo.com wrote:
> According to the Visitation of Gloucester, cited above, as well as the Visitation of Somerset, which contains mostly the same information, the father of John Twynyho of Cirencester was William.
>
> https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou00beno/page/132/mode/2up?view=theater

Thanks. My tree had an error. Consistent with the visitations, my notes but not the tree, have John's parents as William and Joan de Cobyndon (Cobington). I believe the William who married Ankaret was John the MPs older brother. Consistent with the visitation is a petition to Parliament filed by Roger Twynyho outlining his descent from Willaim and Ankeret, through their son John (this is the nephew of John the MP/recorder of Bristol). Not much help but my notes refer to two memoranda of acknowledgement around 1472-74 that appeared to link John the husband of Agnes with John the Recorder of Bristol, which I think identifies him as the MP, supporting a marriage to Agnes. I think the answer to the initial question is John Tynyho the Recorder of Bristol and MP was the son of William Tynyho and Joan {?} Cobyndon, not William Tynyho and Ankaret.

Some notes I collected about John Twynyho are available here, https://www-personal.umich.edu/~bobwolfe/gen/pn/p20642.htm.

The Visitations have only blank spaces for the parents of William and John, but I think I can rectify that.

In 1448 in Common Pleas, there is this defendant:
William Twynyho, son and heir of John Twynyho, of Cayford, Soms, gent
second entry:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no748/bCP40no748dorses/IMG_1145.htm

Cayford or Keyford is in Frome, Somerset. Earlier there is a will of William Twynyho of Frome in 1412. (Weaver's Somerset Medieval Wills 1383-1500) He mentions his wife Alice and son John.
https://archive.org/details/somersetpub16someuoft/page/58/mode/2up

So I think those two blank spaces can be filled in with William and John.

That should be the grandparents of William and John, the father and grandfather of William of Cayford or Keyford.

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 3:14:40 AM UTC-4, vance...@yahoo.com wrote:
> That should be the grandparents of William and John, the father and grandfather of William of Cayford or Keyford.

William great grandfather
John grandfather
William of Cayford = Cobyngdon (parents)
William who married Ankaret and John the MP

Yes. With dates something like this:
William Twynyho, of Frome, 1360-1412, married Alice (will)
John Twynyho, of Cayford, Frome, and of Bristol, 1390-1444, married Joan (co-executrix of John's will, together with William)
William Twynyho, of Cayford, 1415-, married - Codrington (visitation and Common Pleas)
William Twynyho, of Cayford, 1440-, married Ankeret Hawkeston

I found something in Discovery that may call for a rethink:

1441 Deed of entail: Henry Bradeleygh, Jas.Craas and Rich. Osbarne to William Twynyho (son of John T.) and wife Ankarete: all lands, etc. in Frome Braunche, Little Cayvere and Tuddryngton in the hundred of Frome. 10 Sep. 20 Hen.VI
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/357f0a97-0e6c-42a5-b26a-47a607ca8600

If William Twynyho was already married to Ankaret in 1441, then that might mean that there is one too many Williams, and Codrington/Cobington has to be moved elsewhere.

Something like this:
William Twynyho, of Frome, 1360-1412, married Alice (William's will)
John Twynyho, of Cayford, Frome, and of Bristol, 1390-1444, married Joan (co-executrix of John's will, together with William)
William Twynyho, of Cayford, born about 1420, son of John (Common Pleas and TNA Discovery), Ankeret Hawkeston. John Twynyho the MP is his younger brother, born about 1430-40. In his will of 1485, John Twynyho of Cirencester mentions wife Eleanor, nieces Martha, Edith Lynde, nephews John, William, and daughter Dorothy, which mostly matches the Visitation of Somerset.

Another bit of evidence.
There's a will of Roger Twynyho, of Frome Selwood, 1497. In it he makes his brother George his executor.
https://archive.org/details/somersetpub16someuoft/page/352/mode/2up?view=theater

Roger and George must be two of the sons of John, as shown in the visitation of Somerset.
https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou00beno/page/132/mode/2up?view=theater

Roger and George can't have been born much after 1475 (George couldn't be sole executor until age 21).

That would mean that John their father couldn't have been born much after 1450.

Which doesn't leave much time between the birth of William (husband of Ankaret) in about 1420, and the birth of John in about 1450. No room for an extra generation.

So maybe the intervening William is extraneous?

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 2:02:47 PM UTC-4, vance...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Another bit of evidence.
> There's a will of Roger Twynyho, of Frome Selwood, 1497. In it he makes his brother George his executor.
> https://archive.org/details/somersetpub16someuoft/page/352/mode/2up?view=theater
>
> Roger and George must be two of the sons of John, as shown in the visitation of Somerset.
> https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou00beno/page/132/mode/2up?view=theater
>
> Roger and George can't have been born much after 1475 (George couldn't be sole executor until age 21).
>
> That would mean that John their father couldn't have been born much after 1450.
>
> Which doesn't leave much time between the birth of William (husband of Ankaret) in about 1420, and the birth of John in about 1450. No room for an extra generation.
>
> So maybe the intervening William is extraneous?
Yes, and Joan, wife of John, may plausibly have been the daughter of Richard de Cobyndon. See https://books.google.com/books?id=oezgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA309 and the following page.

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:17:32 PM UTC-4, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 2:02:47 PM UTC-4, vance...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Another bit of evidence.
> > There's a will of Roger Twynyho, of Frome Selwood, 1497. In it he makes his brother George his executor.
> > https://archive.org/details/somersetpub16someuoft/page/352/mode/2up?view=theater
> >
> > Roger and George must be two of the sons of John, as shown in the visitation of Somerset.
> > https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou00beno/page/132/mode/2up?view=theater
> >
> > Roger and George can't have been born much after 1475 (George couldn't be sole executor until age 21).
> >
> > That would mean that John their father couldn't have been born much after 1450.
> >
> > Which doesn't leave much time between the birth of William (husband of Ankaret) in about 1420, and the birth of John in about 1450. No room for an extra generation.
> >
> > So maybe the intervening William is extraneous?
> Yes, and Joan, wife of John, may plausibly have been the daughter of Richard de Cobyndon. See https://books.google.com/books?id=oezgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA309 and the following page.

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 7:17:32 PM UTC-4, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 2:02:47 PM UTC-4, vance...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Another bit of evidence.
> > There's a will of Roger Twynyho, of Frome Selwood, 1497. In it he makes his brother George his executor.
> > https://archive.org/details/somersetpub16someuoft/page/352/mode/2up?view=theater
> >
> > Roger and George must be two of the sons of John, as shown in the visitation of Somerset.
> > https://archive.org/details/visitationsofcou00beno/page/132/mode/2up?view=theater
> >
> > Roger and George can't have been born much after 1475 (George couldn't be sole executor until age 21).
> >
> > That would mean that John their father couldn't have been born much after 1450.
> >
> > Which doesn't leave much time between the birth of William (husband of Ankaret) in about 1420, and the birth of John in about 1450. No room for an extra generation.
> >
> > So maybe the intervening William is extraneous?
> Yes, and Joan, wife of John, may plausibly have been the daughter of Richard de Cobyndon. See https://books.google.com/books?id=oezgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA309 and the following page.
Thanks
Not sure but maybe I should un-correct the tree where I made John's father William instead of John.

One more piece of evidence, from Patent Rolls
https://archive.org/details/calendarpatentr12offigoog/page/72/mode/2up?view=theater

This is a petition in 1478 by Roger Twynyho, son of John, son of William Twynyho and Ankarette his wife, for the
king to vacate the conviction of Ankarette Twynyho, who was judicially murdered by the Duke of Clarence.

So that would push the birthdates of Roger and his brother George back a bit more. Something like this:
William b 1360-1412
John b 1390-1444
William b 1420-1477 and John (MP) b 1430-1485
John of Cayford b 1440-
Roger b 1460-1497 and George b 1470-1525

I could only see a snippet view, but here is another description of the brass:

https://archive.org/details/brassesofglouces00davi/page/64/mode/2up
"Here are buried William Prelatte, Esquire, a most special benefactor of this chapel, Agnes late the wife of John Martyn, and Joan, daughter and heiress of Richard de Cobyndon and the widow of John Twynho of Cayforde in the county of Somerset, Esq, wives of the above William ; which William died on the eve of the Ascension of our Lord, the 26 May, A.D. 1462, on whom may God have mercy. — Amen."

Joan, the widow of John Twyneho and now the wife of William Prelat, was a defendant a lawsuit in Common Pleas in 1444:
1444 Twyneho, John of Bristol, gent, executors of; (Twyneho, William, of Frome, Soms, gent; Prelat, William, of Cyrencester, Glos, gent; Joan his wife, coexecutrix with William Twyneho)
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40/732
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no732/aCP40no732fronts/IMG_1030.htm

That about wraps it up.

I have added to the ancestry of the Twynyho family, starting with William Twynyho, born in about 1360.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Twynyho-7

I had not had this earlier marriage for Jane Corbet.
Her mother here called just Elizabeth was a Hopton heiress
Not from her father Thomas as sometimes stated, but from her brother Sir Walter Hopton was d 1461 (IPM 1E4 42; d.s.p.; heir was his sister Elizabeth)

At that time Elizabeth was Heiress "aged 34" of her brother Walter 1461

Afterwards this same Jane (I believe unless she had a same name sister) then married
Thomas /Cressett/ of Upton Cressett, Shropshire; esq
Will dated 20 Aug 1520, probate Apr 1524

They had at least four children

That we see that she could have married Cressett earlier than 1466.

Does anyone have more details on this?

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 2:00:17 PM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:
> I had not had this earlier marriage for Jane Corbet.
> Her mother here called just Elizabeth was a Hopton heiress
> Not from her father Thomas as sometimes stated, but from her brother Sir Walter Hopton was d 1461 (IPM 1E4 42; d.s.p.; heir was his sister Elizabeth)
>
> At that time Elizabeth was Heiress "aged 34" of her brother Walter 1461
>
> Afterwards this same Jane (I believe unless she had a same name sister) then married
> Thomas /Cressett/ of Upton Cressett, Shropshire; esq
> Will dated 20 Aug 1520, probate Apr 1524
>
> They had at least four children
>
> That we see that she could have married Cressett earlier than 1466.
>
> Does anyone have more details on this?

Ankaret died by hanging, being accused of murder by poisoning, was pardoned in 1478 (after her death) due to the action of her grandson Roger, son of her son John then dead

I was thinking that Hawkeston was settled on John Twynho and Jane Corbet because they had just married
However that cannot be the case, if John's son Roger was old enough in 1478 to be requesting a pardon for his grandmother

I can't vouch for Joan Corbett. She was already there as the wife of John Twynyho the MP and I didn't remove her. John the MP's wife at the time of his death was Eleanor. Jan Wolfe has Joan Corbett married to John the MP's nephew, John the son of William. Jan Wolfe has Agnes as the first wife of John the MP.

On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 8:23:28 AM UTC-7, vance...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I can't vouch for Joan Corbett. She was already there as the wife of John Twynyho the MP and I didn't remove her. John the MP's wife at the time of his death was Eleanor. Jan Wolfe has Joan Corbett married to John the MP's nephew, John the son of William. Jan Wolfe has Agnes as the first wife of John the MP.

You said "she was already there"
She was were?