Here are my notes for John Michelgrove III d1459. As to William Sidney of Kingsham, he is a mystery [to me].
The Sidney family was said to hold the manor of Kingsham, and thru the marriage of Mary/Anne Sidney this manor was brought to the family of Michelgrove then Shelley. HOWEVER, this manor had sometime earlier been divested by the Sidney family and had ultimately ended up in the hands of the heirs of John Tavener, to wit Joan Wheghelton alias Whelton, and Margaret Scarddevyle. This Joan Whelton had married the father of John Michelgrove III.
It is said her grandson John Michelgrove had married Anne/Mary Sidney. [See memorial of their daughter Elizabeth Michelgrove aka Shelley].

NOTES

John Michelgrove III 1413- 1459 and Joan ?- after 1459

John Michelgrove III was born around 1413. An inquisition was taken at Chichester in 1438 after the death of his mother Joan Michelgrove formerly the wife of John Michelgrove II. John Michelgrove III was said to be 25 years on the day of the inquisition was taken and was said to be heir to both of them.

In 1441 John Michelgrove, as patron presented two chaplains for the chapel at St. Giles, Wotton. He was evidently a man of standing as he was given a number of commissions in the county. In 1446 he was appointed with others to distribute an allowance of tax to poor towns desolate or greatly overcharged as a result of the civil wars. In 1456 he was commissioned to survey the walls and ditches in the county; and to inquire into the escape of a prisoner from Chichester goal. In 1457 he was granted a licence with William Earl of Arundell and others to form a guild at Horsham; commissioned to enquire touching contracts and conventions in the Bishopic of Chichester concerning the office of Admirality. and to raise 300 odd archers in Sussex. In the commission of 1446, on 16 July in the Fine Rolls he is described as "knight coming to Parliament".

John Michelgrove III died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.]. His son and heir was John Michelgrove IV then aged 22 years, who died shortly thereafter. The inquisitions taken on the deaths on both of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. They both refer to holdings at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land.

John Michelgrove III also married a Joan who was still living at the latter's death. The Escheator for Sussex made in 1460 an assignment of dower to Joan the wife said John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. The surname of his wife is not certain. Some say her surname was Shoyerwell???[but no sources are given].

Note: There were two couples John and Joan Michelgrove, one John Michelgrove III and Joan who died after 1460; and his parents John Michelgrove II and Joan who died in 1438, which has lead to some spurious genealogies.

Paul
Sunshine Coast, Qld

On Friday, 26 October 2012 at 3:34:05 pm UTC+10, bjas...@gmail.com wrote:
> Greetings all...
>
> Does anyone have any information on the family and wives of William Sidney who was MP for Sussex in 1429 and 1433 and died in 1449. He was buried at Cranley, Surrey.
>
> I am descended from his daughter Ann who married John Michelgrove (d. 1459) of Michelgrove in Clapham, Sussex. I think Ann Sidney was born mid to late 1430's and she later married an Apsley after her first husband died.
>
> William apparenty had 3 wives or possibly only two according to some sources. His wives seem to be Cecily Michell, Elizabeth (or Isabel) St. John and finally Thomasine Lunsford nee Barrington. I think Elizabeth St. John is my Ann's mother as this seems to fit with the know chronology.
>
> But who is Isabel or Elizabeth St. John? One source has her as a daughter of Lord St. John but I can find no evidence of this in Complete Peerage as the Last Lord St. John at the appropriate time was a Poynings.
>
> Any help will be appreciated.
>
> Brenden (Gold Coast, Qld)

On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 8:47:35 am UTC+10, Paul Mackenzie wrote:
> Here are my notes for John Michelgrove III d1459. As to William Sidney of Kingsham, he is a mystery [to me].
> The Sidney family was said to hold the manor of Kingsham, and thru the marriage of Mary/Anne Sidney this manor was brought to the family of Michelgrove then Shelley. HOWEVER, this manor had sometime earlier been divested by the Sidney family and had ultimately ended up in the hands of the heirs of John Tavener, to wit Joan Wheghelton alias Whelton, and Margaret Scarddevyle. This Joan Whelton had married the father of John Michelgrove III.
> It is said her grandson John Michelgrove had married Anne/Mary Sidney. [See memorial of their daughter Elizabeth Michelgrove aka Shelley].
>
> NOTES
>
> John Michelgrove III 1413- 1459 and Joan ?- after 1459
>
>
> John Michelgrove III was born around 1413. An inquisition was taken at Chichester in 1438 after the death of his mother Joan Michelgrove formerly the wife of John Michelgrove II. John Michelgrove III was said to be 25 years on the day of the inquisition was taken and was said to be heir to both of them.
>
>
> In 1441 John Michelgrove, as patron presented two chaplains for the chapel at St. Giles, Wotton. He was evidently a man of standing as he was given a number of commissions in the county. In 1446 he was appointed with others to distribute an allowance of tax to poor towns desolate or greatly overcharged as a result of the civil wars. In 1456 he was commissioned to survey the walls and ditches in the county; and to inquire into the escape of a prisoner from Chichester goal. In 1457 he was granted a licence with William Earl of Arundell and others to form a guild at Horsham; commissioned to enquire touching contracts and conventions in the Bishopic of Chichester concerning the office of Admirality. and to raise 300 odd archers in Sussex. In the commission of 1446, on 16 July in the Fine Rolls he is described as "knight coming to Parliament".
>
>
> John Michelgrove III died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.]. His son and heir was John Michelgrove IV then aged 22 years, who died shortly thereafter. The inquisitions taken on the deaths on both of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. They both refer to holdings at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land.
>
>
> John Michelgrove III also married a Joan who was still living at the latter's death. The Escheator for Sussex made in 1460 an assignment of dower to Joan the wife said John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. The surname of his wife is not certain. Some say her surname was Shoyerwell???[but no sources are given].
>
>
> Note: There were two couples John and Joan Michelgrove, one John Michelgrove III and Joan who died after 1460; and his parents John Michelgrove II and Joan who died in 1438, which has lead to some spurious genealogies.
>
> Paul
> Sunshine Coast, Qld

References

C 139/91/18 Michelgrove, Joan: Kent, Sussex." https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6159659

"#145 - Miscellaneous records. v.4. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x001018861&view=1up&seq=145&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

"#44 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.18 1445-1452. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017901&view=1up&seq=44&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

"#50 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.18 1445-1452. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017901&view=1up&seq=50&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no776/aCP40no776fronts/IMG_0854.htm
Citation
AALT website
CP40/776: Hilary Term 1455

"#357 - Calendar of the patent rolls, preserved in the Public ... v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31158013042337&view=1up&seq=357&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

"#428 - Calendar of the patent rolls, preserved in the Public ... v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31158013042337&view=1up&seq=428&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

"#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

"Catalogue description Michelgrove, John, esq: Sussex, Kent." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6160687. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove

Here are my notes on his son

Here are my notes on the son.

JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.

John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.

The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.

It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.

MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].

However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.

John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.

References
Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M.. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157

"Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.

"#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

"#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

"Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

"#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

"#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.

"#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
Notes
MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..

https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
Citation
Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
Notes
JOHN SHELLEY,
esq.
Vol. 46, No. 14.
Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.

ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington.. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.

On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> Here are my notes on his son
>
> Here are my notes on the son.
>
> JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
>
> John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings.. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
>
> The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
>
> It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
>
> MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
>
> However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
>
> John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
>
> References
> Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
>
> "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021..
> "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
>
> "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
>
> "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
>
> "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
>
> "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> Notes
> MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass ..
> Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
>
> https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> Citation
> Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> Notes
> JOHN SHELLEY,
> esq.
> Vol. 46, No. 14.
> Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
>
>
> ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.

Hi All,

I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.

On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Here are my notes on his son
> >
> > Here are my notes on the son.
> >
> > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> >
> > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> >
> > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> >
> > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> >
> > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> >
> > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> >
> > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> >
> > References
> > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> >
> > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> >
> > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> >
> > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> >
> > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> >
> > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > Notes
> > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> >
> > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > Citation
> > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > Notes
> > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > esq.
> > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> >
> >
> > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> Hi All,
>
> I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
>
> I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
>
> According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
>
> Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Gillian

On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Here are my notes on his son
> > >
> > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > >
> > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > >
> > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent.. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > >
> > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > >
> > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > >
> > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > >
> > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > >
> > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > >
> > > References
> > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > >
> > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > >
> > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > >
> > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > >
> > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust..org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > >
> > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > Notes
> > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) ..
> > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ...
> > >
> > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > Citation
> > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > Notes
> > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > esq.
> > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > >
> > >
> > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> >
> > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> >
> > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> >
> > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> > Gillian
> Hi Again,
>
> Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
>
> For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
>
> Does anyone have any information?
>
> Thanks
>
> Gillian

On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > >
> > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > >
> > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > >
> > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > >
> > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > >
> > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > >
> > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > >
> > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > >
> > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > >
> > > > References
> > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > >
> > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct.. 2021.
> > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > >
> > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > >
> > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > >
> > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > >
> > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > Notes
> > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it ..
> > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > >
> > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > Citation
> > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > Notes
> > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > esq.
> > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > >
> > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > >
> > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > >
> > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance
> > >
> > > Gillian
> > Hi Again,
> >
> > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> >
> > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> >
> > Does anyone have any information?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Gillian
> Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/

On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > >
> > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > >
> > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > >
> > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton..
> > > > >
> > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > >
> > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > >
> > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > >
> > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > >
> > > > > References
> > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > >
> > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > >
> > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > >
> > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > >
> > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV..." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > Notes
> > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > Citation
> > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > Notes
> > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > esq.
> > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > Hi All,
> > > >
> > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > >
> > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > >
> > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > >
> > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks in advance
> > > >
> > > > Gillian
> > > Hi Again,
> > >
> > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > >
> > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any information?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Gillian
> > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> Hi
> I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> Gillian

On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 9:11:29 PM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > References
> > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public .... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No .. 66 ..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > Hi All,
> > > > >
> > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > >
> > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > >
> > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > >
> > > > > Gillian
> > > > Hi Again,
> > > >
> > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > >
> > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Gillian
> > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > Hi
> > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > Gillian
> Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states

On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > References
> > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public .... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No .. 66 ..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > Hi All,
> > > > >
> > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > >
> > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > >
> > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > >
> > > > > Gillian
> > > > Hi Again,
> > > >
> > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > >
> > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Gillian
> > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > Hi
> > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > Gillian
> Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states

On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 16:13:13 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed]..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > References
> > > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public .... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public .... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public .... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw.. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism ..
> > > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > Hi Again,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > > >
> > > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > > Gillian
> > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > Hi
> > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > Gillian
> > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> Hi
>
> The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.
>
> Regards
>
> Gillian

On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed]..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > References
> > > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public .... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public .... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public .... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw.. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism ..
> > > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > Hi Again,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > > >
> > > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > > >
> > > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks
> > > > >
> > > > > Gillian
> > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > Hi
> > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > Gillian
> > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> Hi
>
> The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.
>
> Regards
>
> Gillian

On Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 1:52:58 PM UTC-7, daveR wView https://babel.hathitrust.org
> > > > > > >

> > > > >
> > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > Hi
> > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > Gillian
> > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> Richard Lewkenor of Brambletye died childless, when his heirs were said to the grand daughters of his late wife i.e. Elizabeth St Clair by her 1st husband William Lovell.

Your *own* heirs cannot be your step-grandchildren
Try again

On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:19:28 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:

> > > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states

> Another source:
> Page 60
> https://archive.org/details/baronetageofengl01wott/page/90/mode/2up?q=bennetta+lewkenor
>
> The baronetage of England : containing a genealogical and historical account of all the English baronets now existing : ... illustrated with their coats of arms ... : to which is added an account of such Nova Scotia baronets as are of English families : and a dictionary of heraldry ...
> by Wotton, Thomas, d. 1766; Kimber, Edward, 1719-1769; Johnson, R. (Richard), 1733 or 4-1793; Wotton, Thomas, d. 1766

All this says is that this Bennet was the daughter of some Richard "of sussex"
So that doesn't help at all

On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 8:36:47 AM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, June 23, 2022 at 1:52:58 PM UTC-7, daveR wView https://babel..hathitrust.org
> > Richard Lewkenor of Brambletye died childless, when his heirs were said to the grand daughters of his late wife i.e. Elizabeth St Clair by her 1st husband William Lovell.
> Your *own* heirs cannot be your step-grandchildren

Well, just to be incredibly pedantic here, they can, in two different ways: 1) if, say, your niece/nephew married your step-child, their children could coincidentally be both your genealogical heirs and your step-grandchildren; 2) the use of the term 'heirs' is not restricted to default inheritace - when someone details in their will that a certain individual is to receive all of their belongings, it is not uncommon to see this described as 'naming them as his/her heir(s)'

taf

On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > References
> > > > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte.. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history..ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public .... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu..31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public .... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI .. ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > Hi Again,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > > Hi
> > > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > > Gillian
> > > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> > Hi
> >
> > The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Gillian
> Why are you taking shortcuts?
> SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
> Which volume
Hi
Sorry, Volume 3.

On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > References
> > > > > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021..
> > > > > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day ..
> > > > > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > Hi Again,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > > > Hi
> > > > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > > > Gillian
> > > > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Gillian
> > Why are you taking shortcuts?
> > SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
> > Which volume
> Hi
> Sorry, Volume 3.
>
> Regards
>
> Gillian

On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > References
> > > > > > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism ..
> > > > > > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > Hi Again,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > > > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Gillian
> > > Why are you taking shortcuts?
> > > SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
> > > Which volume
> > Hi
> > Sorry, Volume 3.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Gillian
> It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they know this.
>
> At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references

On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > References
> > > > > > > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920..v5 p157
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex.." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw .. IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw .. IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney.. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > Hi Again,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > > > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > > > > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> > > > > Hi
> > > > >
> > > > > The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Gillian
> > > > Why are you taking shortcuts?
> > > > SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
> > > > Which volume
> > > Hi
> > > Sorry, Volume 3.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Gillian
> > It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they know this.
> >
> > At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
> I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.

On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 1:37:02 AM UTC+10, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > References
> > > > > > > > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct.. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445.. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > > > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > > > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > > > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > > > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > > > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > > > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > > > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > > > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > > > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Again,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > > > > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > > > > > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> > > > > > Hi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > Why are you taking shortcuts?
> > > > > SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
> > > > > Which volume
> > > > Hi
> > > > Sorry, Volume 3.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > >
> > > > Gillian
> > > It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they know this.
> > >
> > > At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
> > I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.
> Hi All,
> Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye. Unfortunately this is not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in.
>
> There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing" the son Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.
>
> I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.
>
> Regards
> Gillian

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 9:46:56 AM UTC+10, Mel101 wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 1:37:02 AM UTC+10, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England..
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church.. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > References
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431.. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove.. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi Again,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > > > > > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > > > > > > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > Why are you taking shortcuts?
> > > > > > SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
> > > > > > Which volume
> > > > > Hi
> > > > > Sorry, Volume 3.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Gillian
> > > > It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they know this.
> > > >
> > > > At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
> > > I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.
> > Hi All,
> > Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye. Unfortunately this is not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in..
> >
> > There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing" the son Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.
> >
> > I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.
> >
> > Regards
> > Gillian
> https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/G3JW-51M/sir-john-de-michelgrove-de-fauconer-iii-1398-1459
>
> There may be a change of name from Michelgrove/Faulkner/Fauconer to Lewknor and Shelley as a result of the changes of fortune during the war of the roses. Apparently Michelgrove was seized for a time by Henry VIII, the funds used for his personal wardrobe. Two owners/heirs died mysteriously after his visitation to Sussex, the castle was then left without a male heir, a court case over the age of the young heiress was filed and then she married a Shelley (previously a Faulkner).
>
> https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Michelgrove-1
>
>
> kind regards,
> Melodee

On Tuesday, 20 September 2022 at 01:57:21 UTC+2, Mel101 wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 9:46:56 AM UTC+10, Mel101 wrote:
> > On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 1:37:02 AM UTC+10, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > References
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467.. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham ..
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees..
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Again,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > > > > > > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > > > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > > > > > > > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > Why are you taking shortcuts?
> > > > > > > SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
> > > > > > > Which volume
> > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > Sorry, Volume 3.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they know this.
> > > > >
> > > > > At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
> > > > I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.
> > > Hi All,
> > > Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye. Unfortunately this is not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in.
> > >
> > > There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing" the son Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.
> > >
> > > I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Gillian
> > https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/G3JW-51M/sir-john-de-michelgrove-de-fauconer-iii-1398-1459
> >
> > There may be a change of name from Michelgrove/Faulkner/Fauconer to Lewknor and Shelley as a result of the changes of fortune during the war of the roses. Apparently Michelgrove was seized for a time by Henry VIII, the funds used for his personal wardrobe. Two owners/heirs died mysteriously after his visitation to Sussex, the castle was then left without a male heir, a court case over the age of the young heiress was filed and then she married a Shelley (previously a Faulkner).
> >
> > https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Michelgrove-1
> >
> >
> > kind regards,
> > Melodee
> https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/shelley-william-1479-1549
> SHELLEY, William (by 1479-1549), of London and Michelgrove, Suss.

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 7:03:38 AM UTC-7, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, 20 September 2022 at 01:57:21 UTC+2, Mel101 wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 9:46:56 AM UTC+10, Mel101 wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 1:37:02 AM UTC+10, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > References
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C.. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp.. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Again,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > > > > > > > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > > > > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > > > > > > > > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> > > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > Why are you taking shortcuts?
> > > > > > > > SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
> > > > > > > > Which volume
> > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > Sorry, Volume 3.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they know this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
> > > > > I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.
> > > > Hi All,
> > > > Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye. Unfortunately this is not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in.
> > > >
> > > > There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing" the son Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.
> > > >
> > > > I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Gillian
> > > https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/G3JW-51M/sir-john-de-michelgrove-de-fauconer-iii-1398-1459
> > >
> > > There may be a change of name from Michelgrove/Faulkner/Fauconer to Lewknor and Shelley as a result of the changes of fortune during the war of the roses. Apparently Michelgrove was seized for a time by Henry VIII, the funds used for his personal wardrobe. Two owners/heirs died mysteriously after his visitation to Sussex, the castle was then left without a male heir, a court case over the age of the young heiress was filed and then she married a Shelley (previously a Faulkner).
> > >
> > > https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Michelgrove-1
> > >
> > >
> > > kind regards,
> > > Melodee
> > https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/shelley-william-1479-1549
> > SHELLEY, William (by 1479-1549), of London and Michelgrove, Suss.
> Hi Melodee,
>
> Thanks for the links. I need to look into this Michelgrove family again. All I have is the info discussed in this forum. On Wikitree there is further info:
>
> "Richard Lewknor Called Richard, the Younger due to an older uncle. He married (Miss) Michelgrove, daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney."
>
> The only daughter and child of John Michelgrove and Mary Sydney was Elizabeth b1460 who married John Shelly so the Wikitree information contradicts this. The Source given in Wikitrees is:
>
> https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1237.htm#i37142
>
> This site states that the mysterious "Miss Michelgrove" was the sister of Elizabeth Michelgrove b1460. The source given is : [S74] Brent Ruesch's Research Notes.
>
> Best regards
>
> Gillian

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 8:09:59 AM UTC+10, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 7:03:38 AM UTC-7, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 20 September 2022 at 01:57:21 UTC+2, Mel101 wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 9:46:56 AM UTC+10, Mel101 wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 1:37:02 AM UTC+10, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet..com wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459.. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > References
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www..british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq.. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Again,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > > > > > > > > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > > > > > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> > > > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > Why are you taking shortcuts?
> > > > > > > > > SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
> > > > > > > > > Which volume
> > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > > Sorry, Volume 3.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they know this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
> > > > > > I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.
> > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye. Unfortunately this is not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing" the son Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > > Gillian
> > > > https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/G3JW-51M/sir-john-de-michelgrove-de-fauconer-iii-1398-1459
> > > >
> > > > There may be a change of name from Michelgrove/Faulkner/Fauconer to Lewknor and Shelley as a result of the changes of fortune during the war of the roses. Apparently Michelgrove was seized for a time by Henry VIII, the funds used for his personal wardrobe. Two owners/heirs died mysteriously after his visitation to Sussex, the castle was then left without a male heir, a court case over the age of the young heiress was filed and then she married a Shelley (previously a Faulkner).
> > > >
> > > > https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Michelgrove-1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > kind regards,
> > > > Melodee
> > > https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/shelley-william-1479-1549
> > > SHELLEY, William (by 1479-1549), of London and Michelgrove, Suss.
> > Hi Melodee,
> >
> > Thanks for the links. I need to look into this Michelgrove family again.. All I have is the info discussed in this forum. On Wikitree there is further info:
> >
> > "Richard Lewknor Called Richard, the Younger due to an older uncle. He married (Miss) Michelgrove, daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney."
> >
> > The only daughter and child of John Michelgrove and Mary Sydney was Elizabeth b1460 who married John Shelly so the Wikitree information contradicts this. The Source given in Wikitrees is:
> >
> > https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1237.htm#i37142
> >
> > This site states that the mysterious "Miss Michelgrove" was the sister of Elizabeth Michelgrove b1460. The source given is : [S74] Brent Ruesch's Research Notes.
> >
> > Best regards
> >
> > Gillian
> This source "Our Royal Titled ...." is merely a cut and paste job from One World Tree.
> It's utter and complete rubbish :)
> Not trustworthy in any regard at all.

On Friday, 23 September 2022 at 13:05:22 UTC+2, Mel101 wrote:
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 8:09:59 AM UTC+10, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 7:03:38 AM UTC-7, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, 20 September 2022 at 01:57:21 UTC+2, Mel101 wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 9:46:56 AM UTC+10, Mel101 wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, July 6, 2022 at 1:37:02 AM UTC+10, gillianm...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, 2 July 2022 at 14:13:32 UTC+2, adrianc...@btinternet.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, July 1, 2022 at 2:41:59 AM UTC+1, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, June 25, 2022 at 10:48:16 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, 24 June 2022 at 17:34:57 UTC+2, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Friday, June 24, 2022 at 7:13:13 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, 22 June 2022 at 22:11:29 UTC+2, wjhons....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, June 22, 2022 at 10:18:59 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Monday, 20 June 2022 at 14:56:21 UTC+2, wjhons....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, June 17, 2022 at 7:00:20 AM UTC-7, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, 16 June 2022 at 13:38:17 UTC+2, Gillian Mckenna wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, 24 October 2021 at 01:34:07 UTC+2, macken...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on his son
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here are my notes on the son.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN MICHELGROVE IV was born in March 1436, probably in either Sussex or Kent, to John Michelgrove (1413-1459) and Joan. It is said he apparently married Mary/Anne? Sidney about 1450 of Kent, England.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Michelgrove was a young man of 23 years when he died on 21 November 1459, only ten months after the death of his father John Michelgrove, esquire the elder. The later died on 27 January 1458/9 [27 Jan 1459 n.s.] and his inquisition post mortem gives the age of his son and heir, John the younger as 22 years and 11 months on 22 April 1459. The inquisitions taken on the deaths of these two, in 1459 and 1461 show almost identical land holdings. In Kent these were the manor of Fauconherst with the advowson of the church of Herst, held of the king in chief by service of one quarter of a knights fee: not a very rich property, comprising 40 acres of pasture, 80 acres of marsh and 25 acres of felled woodland and underwood, of total value per annum 46s. 6d. With another 13s. 4d. for the church. In Sussex they held of the King in Chief a messuage, 2 virgates of land and 100 acres of pasture called Wotton by Folkington as part of the manor of Fauconherst in Kent. They also held as tenants-in-chief a toft and 20 acres of land at Bradbrigge (Broadbridge) in Bosham, by service of rendering one white chicken whenever the King and his heirs ride by the land. The latter lands acquired by the Michelgrove family by the marriage of his grandmother Joan Whegeton.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The main difference between the land holdings of the father and son is that the son held only two parts of Fauconherst and Wotton. At the the time of his fathers inquisition in 1458/9 the Escheator for Sussex made an assignment of dower to Joan wife of the late John Michelgrove III of a third part of Wotton for the term of her natural life.. John the younger is referred to as son and heir of John Senior in the assignment, but not specifically of Joan the widow.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is not known where he was born or died, but it is believed he resided at Michelgrove House, Sussex.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MARY/ANNE? SIDNEY, his apparent wife, was born about 1428 of Kent, England, to William Sydney of Kingsham (1390-1449) and Cecily Michell (1390-1447.) She married John Michelgrove about 1450 of Sussex, England. Mary Sidney passed away about 1478, England, age 50 [further sources needed].
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, it should be noted that the Michelgroves had acquired by 1414 a half share of the manor of Kingsham through their grandmother Joan Whegleton, who apparently was a descendant and heir of the Sydneys. The other half was held by her sister Margaret Scardevyle. But by 1428 William Sydney was said to possess a 1/3 share of the manor. John Michelgrove III father of the current John acted as a third party to the conveyance of this Manor to William Sydney and his heir males by Isabel St. John in 1445. Presumably this was a precursor of settling the manor on Mary Sydney and her husband John Michelgrove.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John junior’s SOLE daughter and heir was Elizabeth Michelgrove who was born 28 March 1460 some 3 months after her father died.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > References
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great Britain. Public Record Office, and H. C. Maxwell Lyte. Inquisitions And Assessments Relating to Feudal Aids: With Other Analogous Documents Preserved In the Public Record Office. A.D. 1284-1431. London: Printed for H. M. Stationery off., by Eyre and Spottiswoode, 18991920.v5 p157
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Sussex Fines: 21." 25 Henry VI https://www.british-history.ac.uk/feet-of-fines-sussex/vol3/pp255-260#h3-0003. Accessed 20 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#254 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=254&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#610 - Calendar of the patent rolls preserved in the Public ... 1452-1461 Henry VI v.6. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031079547&view=1up&seq=610&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Catalogue description Michelgrove, John Kent, Sussex." Discovery https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6544445. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#107 - Calendar of the patent rolls. 1461-1467. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293027026339&view=1up&seq=107&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#294 - Calendar of the Fine rolls preserved in the Public ... v.19 1452-1461. - Full View." HathiTrust Digital Library https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=msu.31293024017919&view=1up&seq=294&skin=2021&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 17 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "#28 - Proofs of age of Sussex families, temp. Edw. II to Edw. IV.." Full View https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.hx1fkv&view=1up&seq=28&q1=michelgrove. Accessed 16 Oct. 2021.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MICHELGROVE . - Proof of the age of ELIZABETH , daughter and heir of John MICHELGROVE , Taken at Steyning , 29th March , 15 Edw . IV . ( 1475 ) .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Wolff deposes that the said Elizabeth is upwards of fourteen years old , for she was born at Ernle , on March 28th , 39 Hen . VI . ( 1461 ) ; and that Elizabeth , wife of Thomas Taweke , Esq . , one of her godmothers , told him she had been at her baptism at Ernle on that day .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Remys deposes that she is fourteen years old , because on the day abovesaid he met John Ernle , her godfather , going to Ernle church to her baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Hunt recollects the day , because he rode with Joan Ernle , the other godmother , to Ernle church on that day to the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Broker — because the godfather and godmothers , and many other persons , came into his house on that day , directly after the baptism of the said Elizabeth , to eat and to drink , and they told him of it .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard Millward — because on that day John Ernle , the godfather , met him and told him of the baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Ederuhem because the horses of John Ernle , the god father , stood at his house on that day , and after the baptism he told him he was the godfather .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > William Atte Lee because he was in Ernle church on that day to hear mass .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard French - - because in going to the church to see the baptism , he fell with his right leg against a ladder , in the parish of Ernle , and broke his leg , which he shall never forget .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > William Clement – because the day was very windy , and part of his house was unroofed by the wind .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nicholas Shepherd , John Mansell , and John Grey - because on that day they met a woman named Isabella Tryse , who was the midwife at the birth of the said Elizabeth , and she told them of her birth and baptism .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert Comber and John Duke because they met Thomas Elyot , the chaplain of Ernle , who told them he had baptised the said Elizabeth , in Ernle church on that day . 3
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 The writ was sued out by Sir John and the inquisition was held the day after Shelley , whom she had already , though so she was fourteen ; her husband lost no young , married . She ob . 30th June , 1513 , time therefore in acquiring her or her and was buried at Clapham .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 The writ was dated 8th Nov . 1474 , 3 Inq . 15 Edw . IV . No . 66 ..
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.sussexrecordsociety.org/olb/srs014/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Citation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sussex Record Society Volume 14 page 201.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Notes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOHN SHELLEY,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > esq.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vol. 46, No. 14.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 3 Jan. 18 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, the Judge, aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lands. Manor of Applesham, advowson of and lands in Combes settled 26 Sept. 18 Hen. VIII. on Alice, wife of William Shelley his son and heir, remainder to William S. and his heirs. Moiety of manor and advowson of Denton in Denton and "Sakam" in Shermanbury also settled on said William and Alice. Manor of Hoope in Rudgwick settled 16 Hen. VIII. on himself for life and afterwards on Richard Shelley and Mary his wife. Lands called "Lymeborn" in Fittleworth,"Wayhurst" in Rudgwick, "la Lee" in Clapham, and lands in Storrington, Salvington, Horsbroke, Pokkesmore, Shermanbury, North Mundham, Slinfold, Middleton and Bensted.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Bulshams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called "Wantley" in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was very pleased to find these Michelgrove messages and I have been reading them with great interest. I am researching the Lewknor line of Sussex. Bennet Lewknor (whose 2nd husband was Thomas Twisden, direct ancestor) was the daughter of Richard Lewknor of Sherfield Sussex and "unknown" daughter of Michelgrove. This information comes from "Sussex Archaeological Collections, History and Antiquities of the County". Looking at the site "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", I can see the the mysterious Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. Some sources are given but I have not been able to check them.. On Wikitrees, there is a mass of information about the Lewknors and Twisdens as they descend from William de Huntingfield one of the Magna Carta Barons.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am a bit confused as you say in the inquisition post mortem of John Michelgrove III (died 1458/9) his widow was Joan?? I thought (according to the above messages) his wife was Mary/Anne d 1478.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to the website "Our Royal Titled and Commoner Ancestors", John Michelgrove & Mary Sidney have 2 daus, Elizabeth & unknown. No mention of son John d1459. I think maybe the Elizabeth is the dau of John IV. A mistake maybe. This tree is referred to a lot in Wikitrees.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Going back to the Joan & Mary/Anne Sidney question, am I reading this incorrectly?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Again,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes I think that I read the previous messages incorrectly! Sorry about that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For my Lewknor line, the mysterious Miss Michelgrove is said to be the daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney. However, the sole descendent of John and Mary was Elizabeth their daughter. I do not know how my Miss Michelgrove fits in. It would seem from the information given above that maybe the family tree in the Visitation of Sussex (Lewknor tree) is incorrect? Maybe Miss Michelgrove was the daughter of John senior and Joan? I have been playing around with the dates and both scenarios could be possible I think.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any information?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bennet Lewknor was the daughter of Richard /Lewknor/ of Brambletye
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > He in turn was the son of Thomas /Lewknor/ of Horsted Keynes, Sussex; Knt by Philippe /Dallingridge/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I have Richard Lewknor of Sherfield and not Brambletyre and Richard was the son of Roger Lewknor and Eleanor Camoys.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sussex Archaeological Collections.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > > > Could you specify an exact source citation so I can look it up and see what it actually states
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The source is Sussex Archaeological Collections P98.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > > > Why are you taking shortcuts?
> > > > > > > > > > SAC has dozens and dozens of volumes.
> > > > > > > > > > Which volume
> > > > > > > > > Hi
> > > > > > > > > Sorry, Volume 3.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > > > > It turns out the SAC reference is not independent. It merely cites The Baronetage article 1741 by wotton, kimber, johnson which you already cited. However in addition they add this placename which is not in the original, without citing how they know this.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > At any rate, it's not a scholarly article exactly, but merely a descent chart without the supporting references
> > > > > > > I also have a ref to SAC Vol 137 (1999) pp 153-9, which may have more, but unfortunately I have not kept details.
> > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > Thanks for replies. The SAC vol 137 article is very interesting about Sir John Lewknor son of Sir Thomas. Sir John was killed at the battle of Tewkesbury. A lot of info about his life and mentions his brother Richard of Brambletye. Unfortunately this is not the Richard Lewknor I am interested in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is a will for Sir Roger Lewknor the father written 23rd July and proved 28th Nov 1478. According to various trees online this will mentions that Roger had a son Richard. I have a copy of this will but I am having difficultly "seeing" the son Richard. He is possibly written as Ricd but difficult to read. I can see sons Thomas, Roger, Roger the younger, Edward, George, Reynold & William. There is also a son in law George Baynbridge.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have no sources for Bennet Lewknor daughter of Richard and "Miss Michelgrove" except for the tree in SAC vol 3 which does not give any references.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > Gillian
> > > > > https://ancestors.familysearch.org/en/G3JW-51M/sir-john-de-michelgrove-de-fauconer-iii-1398-1459
> > > > >
> > > > > There may be a change of name from Michelgrove/Faulkner/Fauconer to Lewknor and Shelley as a result of the changes of fortune during the war of the roses. Apparently Michelgrove was seized for a time by Henry VIII, the funds used for his personal wardrobe. Two owners/heirs died mysteriously after his visitation to Sussex, the castle was then left without a male heir, a court case over the age of the young heiress was filed and then she married a Shelley (previously a Faulkner).
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Michelgrove-1
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > kind regards,
> > > > > Melodee
> > > > https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/shelley-william-1479-1549
> > > > SHELLEY, William (by 1479-1549), of London and Michelgrove, Suss.
> > > Hi Melodee,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the links. I need to look into this Michelgrove family again. All I have is the info discussed in this forum. On Wikitree there is further info:
> > >
> > > "Richard Lewknor Called Richard, the Younger due to an older uncle. He married (Miss) Michelgrove, daughter of John Michelgrove and Mary Sidney."
> > >
> > > The only daughter and child of John Michelgrove and Mary Sydney was Elizabeth b1460 who married John Shelly so the Wikitree information contradicts this. The Source given in Wikitrees is:
> > >
> > > https://our-royal-titled-noble-and-commoner-ancestors.com/p1237.htm#i37142
> > >
> > > This site states that the mysterious "Miss Michelgrove" was the sister of Elizabeth Michelgrove b1460. The source given is : [S74] Brent Ruesch's Research Notes.
> > >
> > > Best regards
> > >
> > > Gillian
> > This source "Our Royal Titled ...." is merely a cut and paste job from One World Tree.
> > It's utter and complete rubbish :)
> > Not trustworthy in any regard at all.
> Searching the National Archives there is sometimes some original source material such as wills etc. I suspect that Lewkenor due to the similarity to Fawkenor is a spelling variant of the same surname, possibly due to intermarriage or political turmoil. There was a jacobite Falkner in prison at Windsor castle at one point, and the castle was seized by King Henry VIII before eventually being returned to the young heiress Miss Michelgrove following her marriage to a Shelley (earlier a branch of Faulkner/Michelgrove). I also like to speculate that she may be an illegitimate of the Tudors, hence the mystery of her lineage and the sudden appearance of her children in royal and parliamentary roles.
>
> https://www.geni.com/people/John-Michelgrove-Esq/4209051108010049633
>
> property and alias
> From http://fortunatusfamilia.com.au/getperson.php?personID=I08544&tree=...
>
> ELIZABETH, widow of JOHN SHELLEY, esq., and daughter and heir of John Michelgrove, otherwise called John Fawkenor, esq. Vol. 46, No. 15. Steyning, 29 June 19 Hen. VIII. Died 30 July 5 Hen. VIII. Heir, son William Shelley, now one of the Justices of the King's Bench, and aged 48 and more. Lands called " Michelgrove " and other lands in Clapham, " Buls- hams " in Yapton, lands in Barnham, manor of Benstede, lands in Fittleworth, Petworth, Stopham, Pulborough, Cbichester, Funtingdon, Bosham, Wootton near Fakington. and advowson of the chapel of Wootton, and lands in Patching and Heene, lands called " Wantley " in Sullington. So seized she married John Shelley, and they 10 July 3 Hen. VIII. on the marriage of their son William S. with Alice, one of the sisters and heirs apparent of Edward Belknap, settled them to their use.
>
> Googlebooks The Baronetage of England: Or The History of the English Baronets, and Such Baronets of Scotland, as are of English Families; with Genealogical Tables, and Engravings of Their Coats of Arms, Volume 1. William Betham. Burrell and Bransby, 1801 - Baronetage. "Shelley of Michelgrove, Sussex.". Page 68-69