On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 5:42:12 PM UTC-5, Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57 wrote:
> On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 4:22:29 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> > On 02-Dec-22 5:06 AM, Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57 wrote:
....
> > > Thought provoking and sobering. I so value the discussions here not only for their
> > > information but because of how carefully cases are made and conclusions are reached.
> > > It's an education and a pleasure.
....
> My hope for medieval genealogy in the info age: may all influencers be educated.
I very much agree with both of your statements, Jinny!

While it's not related to medieval genealogy, I thought I'd mention a published chain of genealogical connections (and a story passed down) with similar timing to Peter's, but extending back a little further in time.

In 1948 one of my great great uncles published a book of poems. One of the poems is a ballad telling a story about an event in the lives of John Howland and Elizabeth Tilley, Mayflower passengers, "The Ballad of Elizabeth" (Herbert Delahaye Miles, _Look Up O World_ (Boston: Bruce Humphries, Inc. and Toronto: Ryerton Press, 1948), 133-149). The author, a descendant of John and Elizabeth, was born in 1866 in Milwaukee, WI, where his father had been a partner of P. D. Amour in a grain business. Mr. Miles died in Ashville, NC, in 1958. My parents, brother and I visited him there in 1955 while on a family vacation. My mother had read the book of poems aloud to us as we drove from Ohio to North Carolina.

The prelude to the ballad explains how the tale was passed to Mr. Miles:

"Today, in nineteen-forty-four,
I tell this tale of Plymouth lore;
I keep a pledge—alas, quite late—
A pledge of eighteen-seventy-eight;
To tell, and prove four tellings brought it
From Mayflower’s child to me, who sought it.
To show how slight Time’s bridge can be
Between that child and you and me!
Between, just three John Chipmans,—straight
From us to sixteen-twenty-eight!

Elizabeth Tilley Howland, child of the Mayflower voyage, in 1683, when she was aging, told this tale of her 1628 adventure to her grandson the second John Chipman, thirteen years old.
That John Chipman, born in 1670, passed her tale to his grandson, the fourth John Chipman, then eleven years old, in 1755, in Newport.
In turn he, born 1744, in 1826 passed the tale to his grandson, the sixth John Chipman of the line, then fourteen years old. He, the third one of his name pledged to pass the tale, born 1812, in 1878 told it to me,—to the boy of twelve, that was I!"

On 04-Dec-22 4:13 PM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 5:42:12 PM UTC-5, Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57 wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 4:22:29 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
>>> On 02-Dec-22 5:06 AM, Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57 wrote:
> ...
>>>> Thought provoking and sobering. I so value the discussions here not only for their
>>>> information but because of how carefully cases are made and conclusions are reached.
>>>> It's an education and a pleasure.
> ...
>> My hope for medieval genealogy in the info age: may all influencers be educated.
> I very much agree with both of your statements, Jinny!
>
> While it's not related to medieval genealogy, I thought I'd mention a published chain of genealogical connections (and a story passed down) with similar timing to Peter's, but extending back a little further in time.
>
> In 1948 one of my great great uncles published a book of poems. One of the poems is a ballad telling a story about an event in the lives of John Howland and Elizabeth Tilley, Mayflower passengers, "The Ballad of Elizabeth" (Herbert Delahaye Miles, _Look Up O World_ (Boston: Bruce Humphries, Inc. and Toronto: Ryerton Press, 1948), 133-149). The author, a descendant of John and Elizabeth, was born in 1866 in Milwaukee, WI, where his father had been a partner of P. D. Amour in a grain business. Mr. Miles died in Ashville, NC, in 1958. My parents, brother and I visited him there in 1955 while on a family vacation. My mother had read the book of poems aloud to us as we drove from Ohio to North Carolina.
>
> The prelude to the ballad explains how the tale was passed to Mr. Miles:
>
> "Today, in nineteen-forty-four,
> I tell this tale of Plymouth lore;
> I keep a pledge—alas, quite late—
> A pledge of eighteen-seventy-eight;
> To tell, and prove four tellings brought it
> From Mayflower’s child to me, who sought it.
> To show how slight Time’s bridge can be
> Between that child and you and me!
> Between, just three John Chipmans,—straight
> From us to sixteen-twenty-eight!
>
> Elizabeth Tilley Howland, child of the Mayflower voyage, in 1683, when she was aging, told this tale of her 1628 adventure to her grandson the second John Chipman, thirteen years old.
> That John Chipman, born in 1670, passed her tale to his grandson, the fourth John Chipman, then eleven years old, in 1755, in Newport.
> In turn he, born 1744, in 1826 passed the tale to his grandson, the sixth John Chipman of the line, then fourteen years old. He, the third one of his name pledged to pass the tale, born 1812, in 1878 told it to me,—to the boy of twelve, that was I!"

Splendid, Jan - to me the social connection through five degrees between
you today and Elizabeth Tilley born in 1607 is more interesting than a
genealogical one through (I suppose) around 12 degrees, simply because
our personal interactions have more to so with our disposition and
self-awareness than whatever we can know of our biological past.

Horace Walpole met all of the Hanoverian kings of England, a curiosity
that is probably unique and to me far more interesting than the
countless people in his time who were related to all of them.

Peter Stewart

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On 05-Dec-22 8:42 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 04-Dec-22 4:13 PM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 5:42:12 PM UTC-5, Jinny
>> Wallerstedt/Girl 57 wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 4:22:29 PM UTC-5,
>>> pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
>>>> On 02-Dec-22 5:06 AM, Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57 wrote:
>> ...
>>>>> Thought provoking and sobering. I so value the discussions here not
>>>>> only for their
>>>>> information but because of how carefully cases are made and
>>>>> conclusions are reached.
>>>>> It's an education and a pleasure.
>> ...
>>> My hope for medieval genealogy in the info age: may all influencers
>>> be educated.
>> I very much agree with both of your statements, Jinny!
>>
>> While it's not related to medieval genealogy, I thought I'd mention a
>> published chain of genealogical connections (and a story passed down)
>> with similar timing to Peter's, but extending back a little further in
>> time.
>>
>> In 1948 one of my great great uncles published a book of poems. One of
>> the poems is a ballad telling a story about an event in the lives of
>> John Howland and Elizabeth Tilley, Mayflower passengers, "The Ballad
>> of Elizabeth" (Herbert Delahaye Miles, _Look Up O World_ (Boston:
>> Bruce Humphries, Inc. and Toronto: Ryerton Press, 1948), 133-149). The
>> author, a descendant of John and Elizabeth, was born in 1866 in
>> Milwaukee, WI, where his father had been a partner of P. D. Amour in a
>> grain business. Mr. Miles died in Ashville, NC, in 1958. My parents,
>> brother and I visited him there in 1955 while on a family vacation. My
>> mother had read the book of poems aloud to us as we drove from Ohio to
>> North Carolina.
>>
>> The prelude to the ballad explains how the tale was passed to Mr. Miles:
>>
>> "Today, in nineteen-forty-four,
>> I tell this tale of Plymouth lore;
>> I keep a pledge—alas, quite late—
>> A pledge of eighteen-seventy-eight;
>> To tell, and prove four tellings brought it
>>  From Mayflower’s child to me, who sought it.
>> To show how slight Time’s bridge can be
>> Between that child and you and me!
>> Between, just three John Chipmans,—straight
>>  From us to sixteen-twenty-eight!
>>
>>     Elizabeth Tilley Howland, child of the Mayflower voyage, in 1683,
>> when she was aging, told this tale of her 1628 adventure to her
>> grandson the second John Chipman, thirteen years old.
>>     That John Chipman, born in 1670, passed her tale to his grandson,
>> the fourth John Chipman, then eleven years old, in 1755, in Newport.
>>     In turn he, born 1744, in 1826 passed the tale to his grandson,
>> the sixth John Chipman of the line, then fourteen years old.  He, the
>> third one of his name pledged to pass the tale, born 1812, in 1878
>> told it to me,—to the boy of twelve, that was I!"
>
> Splendid, Jan - to me the social connection through five degrees between
> you today and Elizabeth Tilley born in 1607 is more interesting than a
> genealogical one through (I suppose) around 12 degrees, simply because
> our personal interactions have more to so with our disposition and
> self-awareness than whatever we can know of our biological past.
>
> Horace Walpole met all of the Hanoverian kings of England, a curiosity
> that is probably unique and to me far more interesting than the
> countless people in his time who were related to all of them.

I dare say your great-great-uncle the poet might have been as chuffed at
his connection through 4 social links to someone born a compatriot of
the living Shakespeare as at his more remote descent from Mayflower
passengers.

Peter Stewart

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On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 5:29:58 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> On 05-Dec-22 8:42 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > Splendid, Jan - to me the social connection through five degrees between
> > you today and Elizabeth Tilley born in 1607 is more interesting than a
> > genealogical one through (I suppose) around 12 degrees, simply because
> > our personal interactions have more to so with our disposition and
> > self-awareness than whatever we can know of our biological past.
> >
> > Horace Walpole met all of the Hanoverian kings of England, a curiosity
> > that is probably unique and to me far more interesting than the
> > countless people in his time who were related to all of them.

> I dare say your great-great-uncle the poet might have been as chuffed at
> his connection through 4 social links to someone born a compatriot of
> the living Shakespeare as at his more remote descent from Mayflower
> passengers.
> Peter Stewart

Thanks, Peter. I don't know which connections would have pleased Herbert Miles the most. His autobiographical scrapbook is preserved at the UNC Ashville library (http://toto.lib.unca.edu/findingaids/mss/miles_herbert/default_miles_herbert.htm, http://toto.lib.unca.edu/findingaids/mss/miles_herbert/miles_scrapbook_miles.htm).
Mr. Miles met and interacted with many interesting people in his lifetime including U.S. presidents and titans of industry. He wrote _The science of currency and centralized banking; a study of publications recently issued by the National Monetary Commission_ in 1911 (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo1.ark:/13960/t0jt07p6s&view=1up&seq=5 and https://books.google.com/books?id=OEQuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1) and several thoughtful articles as well as poems.

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 12:40:08 AM UTC-5, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 5:29:58 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
> > On 05-Dec-22 8:42 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > > Splendid, Jan - to me the social connection through five degrees between
> > > you today and Elizabeth Tilley born in 1607 is more interesting than a
> > > genealogical one through (I suppose) around 12 degrees, simply because
> > > our personal interactions have more to so with our disposition and
> > > self-awareness than whatever we can know of our biological past.
> > >
> > > Horace Walpole met all of the Hanoverian kings of England, a curiosity
> > > that is probably unique and to me far more interesting than the
> > > countless people in his time who were related to all of them.
>
> > I dare say your great-great-uncle the poet might have been as chuffed at
> > his connection through 4 social links to someone born a compatriot of
> > the living Shakespeare as at his more remote descent from Mayflower
> > passengers.
> > Peter Stewart
> Thanks, Peter. I don't know which connections would have pleased Herbert Miles the most. His autobiographical scrapbook is preserved at the UNC Ashville library (http://toto.lib.unca.edu/findingaids/mss/miles_herbert/default_miles_herbert.htm, http://toto.lib.unca.edu/findingaids/mss/miles_herbert/miles_scrapbook_miles.htm).
> Mr. Miles met and interacted with many interesting people in his lifetime including U.S. presidents and titans of industry. He wrote _The science of currency and centralized banking; a study of publications recently issued by the National Monetary Commission_ in 1911 (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo1.ark:/13960/t0jt07p6s&view=1up&seq=5 and https://books.google.com/books?id=OEQuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1) and several thoughtful articles as well as poems.
Jan, thank you so much for sharing this. It's just wonderful. Mr. Miles sounds great...How many of us here would love to have such an uncle? And oh, the heaven of being read poetry on a car trip!

On 06-Dec-22 1:18 AM, Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57 wrote:
> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 12:40:08 AM UTC-5, Jan Wolfe wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 5:29:58 PM UTC-5, pss...@optusnet.com.au wrote:
>>> On 05-Dec-22 8:42 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>>> Splendid, Jan - to me the social connection through five degrees between
>>>> you today and Elizabeth Tilley born in 1607 is more interesting than a
>>>> genealogical one through (I suppose) around 12 degrees, simply because
>>>> our personal interactions have more to so with our disposition and
>>>> self-awareness than whatever we can know of our biological past.
>>>>
>>>> Horace Walpole met all of the Hanoverian kings of England, a curiosity
>>>> that is probably unique and to me far more interesting than the
>>>> countless people in his time who were related to all of them.
>>
>>> I dare say your great-great-uncle the poet might have been as chuffed at
>>> his connection through 4 social links to someone born a compatriot of
>>> the living Shakespeare as at his more remote descent from Mayflower
>>> passengers.
>>> Peter Stewart
>> Thanks, Peter. I don't know which connections would have pleased Herbert Miles the most. His autobiographical scrapbook is preserved at the UNC Ashville library (http://toto.lib.unca.edu/findingaids/mss/miles_herbert/default_miles_herbert.htm, http://toto.lib.unca.edu/findingaids/mss/miles_herbert/miles_scrapbook_miles.htm).
>> Mr. Miles met and interacted with many interesting people in his lifetime including U.S. presidents and titans of industry. He wrote _The science of currency and centralized banking; a study of publications recently issued by the National Monetary Commission_ in 1911 (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=coo1.ark:/13960/t0jt07p6s&view=1up&seq=5 and https://books.google.com/books?id=OEQuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1) and several thoughtful articles as well as poems.
> Jan, thank you so much for sharing this. It's just wonderful. Mr. Miles sounds great...How many of us here would love to have such an uncle? And oh, the heaven of being read poetry on a car trip!

If a long car trip could be made heavenly for a child, that may be the
way to do it. Certainly the line "To show how slight Time’s bridge can
be" is the first poetic expression I've come across of an abiding
side-interest of mine in the study of history.

Recently I lost a long-treasured instance - for 50 years I had believed
I once met a niece-by-marriage of the poet Robert Browning, but just
learned that this alleged relationship was a mistaken legend in her
family. O well, the old lady was unforgettable anyway and the portrait
of Browning over her fireplace was presumably genuine.

Peter Stewart

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On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 9:18:14 AM UTC-5, Jinny Wallerstedt/Girl 57 wrote:
> Jan, thank you so much for sharing this. It's just wonderful. Mr. Miles sounds great...How many of us here would love to have such an uncle? And oh, the heaven of being read poetry on a car trip!
Thank you, Jinny. I'm happy that you enjoyed it. If you love poetry, you may be interested to know that one of Herbert Miles' nieces (daughter of his youngest brother) was UC Berkeley poet and professor Josephine Miles (https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/josephine-miles, https://www-personal.umich.edu/~bobwolfe/gen/pn/p2646.htm).

A sábado, 26 de novembro de 2022 à(s) 03:50:51 UTC, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:
> Here is an incredible connection extending back over 300 years that I found on the night of 16 February at https://twitter.com/Robinson_IP/status/1381010447709650957?t=iVnCYSwqJ1z7bfYz6uaB4g&s=19. Here is the source,
> https://www.charlesholloway.co.uk/2010/09/a-theory-of-relativity/: A man alive in 1999 heard a woman say in 1923 that her husband's first wife's first husband served Oliver Cromwell.
> Here is the explanation from the article: "The setting for the article was 1999 but the remark was made in 1923 by a 91 year old who had been born in 1832. At the age of 16 she had married an 80 year old man named Henry. Sixty four years earlier, in 1784, the young Henry had, for obscure reasons, married an 82 year old woman. Her first marriage had been in 1720 and was to an 80 year old who had served Cromwell before his death in 1658!"
> What do you think of this?
Today, what I found searching for the quote "husband knew Oliver Cromwell" on Google Books has made me very skeptical of this story. https://www.google.com/search?q=%22husband+knew+Oliver+Cromwell%22&client=ms-android-xiaomi-rvo3&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjftceYw-r7AhXAXaQEHdOWAgQQ_AUoBnoECAEQBg&biw=393&bih=736&dpr=2.75 shows two books by David Ovilgy, one from 1978 and the other from 1997. Both of them tell exactly the same story as the 1999 article by Simon Jenkins except that it takes place in the 1860s when it is chronologically much more plausible. What do you think of this?

On 09-Dec-22 5:04 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A sábado, 26 de novembro de 2022 à(s) 03:50:51 UTC, Paulo Ricardo Canedo escreveu:
>> Here is an incredible connection extending back over 300 years that I found on the night of 16 February at https://twitter.com/Robinson_IP/status/1381010447709650957?t=iVnCYSwqJ1z7bfYz6uaB4g&s=19. Here is the source,
>> https://www.charlesholloway.co.uk/2010/09/a-theory-of-relativity/: A man alive in 1999 heard a woman say in 1923 that her husband's first wife's first husband served Oliver Cromwell.
>> Here is the explanation from the article: "The setting for the article was 1999 but the remark was made in 1923 by a 91 year old who had been born in 1832. At the age of 16 she had married an 80 year old man named Henry. Sixty four years earlier, in 1784, the young Henry had, for obscure reasons, married an 82 year old woman. Her first marriage had been in 1720 and was to an 80 year old who had served Cromwell before his death in 1658!"
>> What do you think of this?
> Today, what I found searching for the quote "husband knew Oliver Cromwell" on Google Books has made me very skeptical of this story. https://www.google.com/search?q=%22husband+knew+Oliver+Cromwell%22&client=ms-android-xiaomi-rvo3&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjftceYw-r7AhXAXaQEHdOWAgQQ_AUoBnoECAEQBg&biw=393&bih=736&dpr=2.75 shows two books by David Ovilgy, one from 1978 and the other from 1997. Both of them tell exactly the same story as the 1999 article by Simon Jenkins except that it takes place in the 1860s when it is chronologically much more plausible. What do you think of this?

The idea that no-one - whether in the 19th century or the or 20th -
should speak ill of Oliver Cromwell just because a boy who once knew the
man had liked him is so idiotic that I would place no reliance in
anything said by someone foolish enough to think it in the first place.

The purported marital linkage amounts to little more than an "old axe
with a new head and a replaced handle" story anyway.

Peter Stewart

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