I have now added Catherine As a daughter to Cecily Neville
This makes Catherine a Cecil 7, but more importantly for most she is an E3#8, eight generations from Edward III
Which of course improves the lines for all her descendants, formally some of whom, only had the poorer E1 descent

"In Harleian M.S. 6128 is also found the following descent, which has some interest as connected with the Mytton Pedigree: William Weston, of Prested Hall [in Ferring, co. Essex], by Margaret his wife, temp. H[enr]y. viij, had issue John or Thomas Weston, who, marrying a daughter of Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, had issue James, the husband of Margery, elder daughter of Humphrey Low of Lichfield, by whom he had issue Sir Simon Weston and Elizabeth wife of Edward Mitton of Weston under Lizzard. ...

....Or an eagle displayed sable ; 2. Or a chief azure ; 3. Ermine on a chief azure three bezants; 4. Azure six lioncels or crowned gules.

William Weston, of Prested Hall, co. Essex, and of London, Mercer, was living 5 Hy. viij. The Essex Westons seem to have been the descendants of John Weston of Rugeley, temp. ... "

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Transactions_of_the_Shropshire_Archaeolo/RHpHAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22william+weston%22+prested&pg=RA1-PA414&printsec=frontcover

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 2:57:22 PM UTC-8, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> "In Harleian M.S. 6128 is also found the following descent, which has some interest as connected with the Mytton Pedigree: William Weston, of Prested Hall [in Ferring, co. Essex], by Margaret his wife, temp. H[enr]y. viij, had issue John or Thomas Weston, who, marrying a daughter of Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, had issue James, the husband of Margery, elder daughter of Humphrey Low of Lichfield, by whom he had issue Sir Simon Weston and Elizabeth wife of Edward Mitton of Weston under Lizzard. ...
>
> ...Or an eagle displayed sable ; 2. Or a chief azure ; 3. Ermine on a chief azure three bezants; 4. Azure six lioncels or crowned gules.
>
> William Weston, of Prested Hall, co. Essex, and of London, Mercer, was living 5 Hy. viij. The Essex Westons seem to have been the descendants of John Weston of Rugeley, temp. ... "
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Transactions_of_the_Shropshire_Archaeolo/RHpHAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22william+weston%22+prested&pg=RA1-PA414&printsec=frontcover

This James Weston was James /Weston/ of St John's Hospital in Lichfield, co Staf
Will dated 2 May 1589, proved 24 May 1589 (CPC 48 Leicester)

His wife Margery /Lowe/ d 1587
They also had an eldest son
Richard /Weston/ of the Inner Temple, London 1577; Gent 1577

See

Thomas Harwood, The History and Antiquities of the Church and City of
Litchfield (Glocester: Printed for Cadell and Davies, London, 1806),
497. “‘Concessio liberae Scholae Grammaticalis Lichfeildensts. James
Weston, of the City of Lichfield, Gent. Michael Lowe, of Tymore, in
the County of Stafford, Gent, John Chatterton, of the City of
Lichfield, Gent, enfeoffe and grant to Zachary Babington, John
Bagshawe, Simon Biddull, Richard Otteley, Philip Streethay, and Thomas
Ilsley, of the City of Lichfield, Gentlemen; and to Richard Weston, of
the Inner Temple, London, Gent. Son of the aforesaid James Weston,
John Lowe, mercer, Michael Allen and Richard Bardell, Humfrey
Chaterton of Norton, in the County of Stafford, and Humfrey Lowe,
Nephew of the aforesaid Michael Lowe; a tenement, or brick-house, now
used as a School, called the New School, also a certain Close, and
Garden, upon parcel of which the said House is erected, in St. John's
Street, to have and to hold the singular premises to the above
Feoffees and their Assigns, for ever, according to the intentions of a
Schedule annexed, &c. In testimony of which, the Bailiffs on the one
part, and the Feoffees on the other, put their Seals, dated 27 April,
Anno Regni Elizab. Vicessimo nono.’ 1577. … Signed, J. Weston, Michael
Lowe, John Chaterton.” (Footnote: Ashmol. MSS. fol. 855, p.
91. ...... i)

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 5:57:22 PM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> "In Harleian M.S. 6128 is also found the following descent, which has some interest as connected with the Mytton Pedigree: William Weston, of Prested Hall [in Ferring, co. Essex], by Margaret his wife, temp. H[enr]y. viij, had issue John or Thomas Weston, who, marrying a daughter of Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, had issue James, the husband of Margery, elder daughter of Humphrey Low of Lichfield, by whom he had issue Sir Simon Weston and Elizabeth wife of Edward Mitton of Weston under Lizzard. ...

Hi Johnny,

Thank you for your observation. We ordered and carefully examined this manuscript in 2011. It is a single page, with no information about the informant, the herald who sketched the line, or the date of creation. It is associated with no supporting evidence. So it is impossible to assess its credibility, especially where it deviates from other well-documented records. It shows brothers Thomas Weston and John Weston, sons of William Weston of Prested Hall, as husbands successively of ... daughter of Neville, Lord Abergavenny, and one or the other couple -- or perhaps both couples (the lines are indistinctly drawn) as the parents of Edmund Weston; Robert Weston, Lord Chancellor of Ireland; James Weston of Lichfield; Richard Weston; and Christopher Weston. When we compared this single unsourced document with the Weston pedigree, which is supported by more than 200 pages of contemporary records -- including deeds, testimony from near relatives, and church monuments, we concluded that this document is in error.

Shawn

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 3:50:35 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 2:57:22 PM UTC-8, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> > "In Harleian M.S. 6128 is also found the following descent, which has some interest as connected with the Mytton Pedigree: William Weston, of Prested Hall [in Ferring, co. Essex], by Margaret his wife, temp. H[enr]y. viij, had issue John or Thomas Weston, who, marrying a daughter of Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, had issue James, the husband of Margery, elder daughter of Humphrey Low of Lichfield, by whom he had issue Sir Simon Weston and Elizabeth wife of Edward Mitton of Weston under Lizzard. ...
> >
> > ...Or an eagle displayed sable ; 2. Or a chief azure ; 3. Ermine on a chief azure three bezants; 4. Azure six lioncels or crowned gules.
> >
> > William Weston, of Prested Hall, co. Essex, and of London, Mercer, was living 5 Hy. viij. The Essex Westons seem to have been the descendants of John Weston of Rugeley, temp. ... "
> >
> > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Transactions_of_the_Shropshire_Archaeolo/RHpHAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22william+weston%22+prested&pg=RA1-PA414&printsec=frontcover
> This James Weston was James /Weston/ of St John's Hospital in Lichfield, co Staf
> Will dated 2 May 1589, proved 24 May 1589 (CPC 48 Leicester)
>
> His wife Margery /Lowe/ d 1587
> They also had an eldest son
> Richard /Weston/ of the Inner Temple, London 1577; Gent 1577
>
> See
>
> Thomas Harwood, The History and Antiquities of the Church and City of
> Litchfield (Glocester: Printed for Cadell and Davies, London, 1806),
> 497. “‘Concessio liberae Scholae Grammaticalis Lichfeildensts. James
> Weston, of the City of Lichfield, Gent. Michael Lowe, of Tymore, in
> the County of Stafford, Gent, John Chatterton, of the City of
> Lichfield, Gent, enfeoffe and grant to Zachary Babington, John
> Bagshawe, Simon Biddull, Richard Otteley, Philip Streethay, and Thomas
> Ilsley, of the City of Lichfield, Gentlemen; and to Richard Weston, of
> the Inner Temple, London, Gent. Son of the aforesaid James Weston,
> John Lowe, mercer, Michael Allen and Richard Bardell, Humfrey
> Chaterton of Norton, in the County of Stafford, and Humfrey Lowe,
> Nephew of the aforesaid Michael Lowe; a tenement, or brick-house, now
> used as a School, called the New School, also a certain Close, and
> Garden, upon parcel of which the said House is erected, in St. John's
> Street, to have and to hold the singular premises to the above
> Feoffees and their Assigns, for ever, according to the intentions of a
> Schedule annexed, &c. In testimony of which, the Bailiffs on the one
> part, and the Feoffees on the other, put their Seals, dated 27 April,
> Anno Regni Elizab. Vicessimo nono.’ 1577. … Signed, J. Weston, Michael
> Lowe, John Chaterton.” (Footnote: Ashmol. MSS. fol. 855, p.
> 91. ...... i)

Sir Symon Weston
Symon /Weston/ of Lichfield, co Staf -1598-; esq -1598-; Knt; MP 1624-6; W
married Mary Lloyd and had a daughter and heiress Elizabeth
who marreid
Robert Ridgway, Knt 1608; 2nd Earl of /Londonderry/ 1631-

Which adds an E3 descent for these Earls of Londonderry which I had not previously had

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 3:53:16 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
> On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 3:50:35 PM UTC-8, Will Johnson wrote:
> > On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 2:57:22 PM UTC-8, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> > > "In Harleian M.S. 6128 is also found the following descent, which has some interest as connected with the Mytton Pedigree: William Weston, of Prested Hall [in Ferring, co. Essex], by Margaret his wife, temp. H[enr]y. viij, had issue John or Thomas Weston, who, marrying a daughter of Nevill, Lord Abergavenny, had issue James, the husband of Margery, elder daughter of Humphrey Low of Lichfield, by whom he had issue Sir Simon Weston and Elizabeth wife of Edward Mitton of Weston under Lizzard. ...
> > >
> > > ...Or an eagle displayed sable ; 2. Or a chief azure ; 3. Ermine on a chief azure three bezants; 4. Azure six lioncels or crowned gules.
> > >
> > > William Weston, of Prested Hall, co. Essex, and of London, Mercer, was living 5 Hy. viij. The Essex Westons seem to have been the descendants of John Weston of Rugeley, temp. ... "
> > >
> > > https://www.google.com/books/edition/Transactions_of_the_Shropshire_Archaeolo/RHpHAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22william+weston%22+prested&pg=RA1-PA414&printsec=frontcover
> > This James Weston was James /Weston/ of St John's Hospital in Lichfield, co Staf
> > Will dated 2 May 1589, proved 24 May 1589 (CPC 48 Leicester)
> >
> > His wife Margery /Lowe/ d 1587
> > They also had an eldest son
> > Richard /Weston/ of the Inner Temple, London 1577; Gent 1577
> >
> > See
> >
> > Thomas Harwood, The History and Antiquities of the Church and City of
> > Litchfield (Glocester: Printed for Cadell and Davies, London, 1806),
> > 497. “‘Concessio liberae Scholae Grammaticalis Lichfeildensts. James
> > Weston, of the City of Lichfield, Gent. Michael Lowe, of Tymore, in
> > the County of Stafford, Gent, John Chatterton, of the City of
> > Lichfield, Gent, enfeoffe and grant to Zachary Babington, John
> > Bagshawe, Simon Biddull, Richard Otteley, Philip Streethay, and Thomas
> > Ilsley, of the City of Lichfield, Gentlemen; and to Richard Weston, of
> > the Inner Temple, London, Gent. Son of the aforesaid James Weston,
> > John Lowe, mercer, Michael Allen and Richard Bardell, Humfrey
> > Chaterton of Norton, in the County of Stafford, and Humfrey Lowe,
> > Nephew of the aforesaid Michael Lowe; a tenement, or brick-house, now
> > used as a School, called the New School, also a certain Close, and
> > Garden, upon parcel of which the said House is erected, in St. John's
> > Street, to have and to hold the singular premises to the above
> > Feoffees and their Assigns, for ever, according to the intentions of a
> > Schedule annexed, &c. In testimony of which, the Bailiffs on the one
> > part, and the Feoffees on the other, put their Seals, dated 27 April,
> > Anno Regni Elizab. Vicessimo nono.’ 1577. … Signed, J. Weston, Michael
> > Lowe, John Chaterton.” (Footnote: Ashmol. MSS. fol. 855, p.
> > 91. ...... i)
> Sir Symon Weston
> Symon /Weston/ of Lichfield, co Staf -1598-; esq -1598-; Knt; MP 1624-6; W
> married Mary Lloyd and had a daughter and heiress Elizabeth
> who marreid
> Robert Ridgway, Knt 1608; 2nd Earl of /Londonderry/ 1631-
>
>
> Which adds an E3 descent for these Earls of Londonderry which I had not previously had

The will of this James Weston is abstracted here

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogical_Memoirs_of_the_Extinct_Fami/oGMBAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover

On Monday, December 5, 2022 at 7:03:39 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> The will of this James Weston is abstracted here
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogical_Memoirs_of_the_Extinct_Fami/oGMBAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover

A digital image of the whole will is available through online download for a small fee. We make multiple references to his will in our book. Will of James Weston, Lichfield, co. Stafford, England, dated 2 May 1589, proved 24 May 1589, Records of the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, PROB 11/73, The National Archives, London, UK.

On Sunday, December 4, 2022 at 9:22:44 AM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> Why did he do it?
>
> My wife and I demonstrate in Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/) that Robert Edmond Chester Waters falsely claimed that the Weston pedigree published by the College of Arms in 1633 was a fabrication. Was Waters merely mistaken about every one of his five arguments in support of his claim? If so, one wonders how a genealogist with his reputation could have made such a series of mistakes. Some of his statements about the pedigree suggest that he never saw the original records. Was he relying on the work of others? Was he himself deceived? Or was his allegation of fraud, which so many people accepted for some 250 years, something more sinister? We did not address this question in our book.
>
> However, it is interesting to note that Waters first, to our knowledge, alleged that the Weston pedigree was a fabrication in 1872, writing under the anagram TEWARS (see footnote 2 in our chapter entitled Rise of Skepticism). This was six years before he made his allegation, writing in true name, in Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley.
>
> Perhaps equally vexing for us is the question, why did so many people believe his assertions for so many years, until we published our discoveries on soc.genealogy.medieval in 2011, and more recently in our book. It seems likely to us that most people were unable to examine the Weston pedigree and related contemporary records for themselves and simply trusted the claims by Waters. Still, one wonders.
>
> Shawn

When my wife and I first read the argument by Waters in support of his claim that the Weston pedigree was a fabrication, we were startled by his following statement. “I subjoin an abstract of the Wills of Robert and James Weston to show that they omit all notice of Richard Weston the Judge, and his children, and of his sister Mrs. Slade, and her children; whilst Richard in his Will (p. 85 [sic. 87-88]) is equally silent about his supposed brothers and sisters.” See Genealogical Memoirs of the Extinct Family of Chester of Chicheley, Their Ancestors and Descendants (London: Robson and Sons, 1878), 1: 94. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Genealogical_Memoirs_of_the_Extinct_Fami/OaxCAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22i+subjoin+an+abstract+of+the+wills%22&pg=PA94&printsec=frontcover

We wondered why a reputable genealogist and barrister would suggest that the absence of the name of a testator’s brother in his will was evidence that the testator and his unnamed brother were not brothers. There was, and is, no requirement for testators to name brothers in their wills. Sir William Blackstone explained that, from before the Conquest until recent times, a widow was entitled to one third of her husband’s estate, children were entitled to one third of their father’s estate, and the testator could dispose of one third of his estate as he chose. Blackstone goes on to say that, during the 17th and early 18th centuries, laws were enacted throughout the realm that allowed testators to dispose of all their personal estates by will. See William Blackstone, Knt., Commentaries on the Laws of England (London: A. Strahan, 1825), 2: 491-493. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Commentaries_on_the_Laws_of_England/dlQUAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=wills

We also wondered why so many people accepted, and continue to repeat, such a meritless argument. We have no answer for this, or for the previous, question.

This observation led to our decision to examine all of Waters’ arguments in detail and review the Weston pedigree documentation and independent records for ourselves. As our project progressed, we were surprised to discover that none of Waters’ arguments are persuasive, and documents that accompany the pedigree, together with independent records, support the two statements in the Weston pedigree that Waters singled out for criticism – that Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston were brothers, and their mother was Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland. See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:23:02 AM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

In the appendices of our book, we present a sample of Cecily Neville’s descents from Magna Carta sureties, companions at the Battle of Hastings, and many royal ancestors, including the following possible gateway to antiquity based on the work of Stanford Mommaerts-Browne, “Monomachos, Tornikes and An Uncharted Caucasian Ancestry,” in Journal for the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (Hereford, UK: Foundations for Medieval Genealogy, 2006), 2 (Number 2), 158-162.

28. Smbat VII, Constable of Armenia = dau. of Shmuegh II Mamikonian
27. Ashot IV, Constable of Armenia = ____
26. Bagrat I, Prince of Armenia = Arcruni
25. Tornik, Captive of Caliph in Baghdad = ____
24. Apuganem, Patrician = ____
23. Tornik, Patrician = ____
22. Nicholas Tornikes = ____
21. Maria Tornikaena = Theodosios Monomachos, Magistrate of Byzantium
20. Konstantinos IX Monomachos, Emperor of Byzantium = Helena Skleraina
19. Anastasia Monomacha = Vsevolod I, Grand Duke of Kiev
18. Vladimir Monomakh, Grand Duke of Kiev = Gytha of Wessex
17. Mstislav I, Grand Duke of Kiev = Lubova Dmitrovna
16. Euphrosyne Mstislavna = Gesa II, King of Hungary
15. Bela III, King of Hungary = Agnes of Antioch
14. Andrew II, King of Hungary = Gertrude von Meran
13. Bela IV, King of Hungary = Maria Laskarina
12. Stephen V, King of Hungary = Elizabeth of Cumans
11. Maria of Hungary = Charles II, King of Naples
10. Margaret d’Anjou = Charles, Comte de Valois
9. Jeanne de Valois = William III, Graaf van Holland
8. Philippa of Hainault = Edward III, King of England
7. John “of Gaunt,” Duke of Lancaster = Blanche of Lancaster
6. Elizabeth of Lancaster = John de Holand, 1st Duke of Exeter
5. John de Holand, 2nd Duke of Exeter = Anne de Stafford
4. Anne de Holand = Sir John Neville, 1st Baron Neville
3. Ralph Neville, 3rd Earl of Westmorland = Margaret Booth
2. Ralph Neville, Lord Neville = Elizabeth Sandys
1. Cecily Neville = John Weston of Lichfield

On Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 7:57:10 AM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 11:03:04 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Twelve years ago, I summarized my work on the 1633 Weston pedigree by the College of Arms here https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/QozzNrcLPPY/m/7kkDUgcx-f8J
> > . I quickly concluded that a formal presentation was needed, drafted an article, and then had to put that work on hold due to other commitments.
> >
> > Now that I am retired, my wife and I have published our research in a new book entitled Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms. You can find it in multiple formats here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/. We not only present the evidence that we found so many years ago -- and more, we also share images of the manuscript documentation, thanks to permission by the British Library.
> >
> > We would be happy to discuss our work with anyone directly. Our contact information is in the About Us section of the book.
> >
> > Best,
> > Shawn Potter
> I hope you addressed all the issues that were raised in that thread by examining original documents.

Just by way of a reminder, Douglas Richardson & Matthew Tompkins posted
several records for this family, which are much earlier than the Weston Pedigree:

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/bIst5T6YfQw

And Brad Verity made several comments:

"Shawn and Joe need Cecily Neville to have been the wife of John Weston of Lichfield in order to give John Weston's daughter Alice, and her descendants, ancestors which trace back to Edward III and earlier monarchs. Otherwise, there is no royal ancestry for Alice Weston Ball. "

"It's not our fault you aren't happy with the result: that no Cecily Neville, wife of John Weston of Lichfield, can be found in any records from the early 1500s, except for the one deed allegedly from 1526, that is no longer where the 1632 Weston pedigree stated it had been (Chillingham in Staffordshire). "

Leslie

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:15:49 AM UTC-5, Leslie Mahler wrote:
> Just by way of a reminder ...

Hi Leslie,

Please see my response on 14 Mar 2014 at the bottom of your cited chain. With respect to the Kettle document, see my note on 1 Dec 2022 in this chain. I am reminded of my questions on 4 and 7 Dec 2014 in this chain. Why did Waters make such an unfounded claim about the Weston pedigree, and why have so many people accepted and repeated his meritless arguments? The truth cannot be found by throwing dust in the air, citing secret correspondents, or making personal attacks; but it is available to those who are willing to examine original records – which my wife and I have done. Please see our work Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

Shawn

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:15:49 AM UTC-5, Leslie Mahler wrote:
> Just by way of a reminder ... https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/bIst5T6YfQw

Hi Leslie,

Please see my response on 14 Mar 2014 at the bottom of your cited chain. With respect to the Kettle document, see my note on 1 Dec 2022 in this chain. I am reminded of my questions on 4 and 7 Dec 2022 in this chain. Why did Waters make such an unfounded claim about the Weston pedigree, and why have so many people accepted and repeated his meritless arguments? The truth cannot be found by throwing dust in the air, citing secret correspondents, or making personal attacks; but it is available to those who are willing to examine original records – which my wife and I have done. Please see our work Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/

Shawn

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 8:35:49 AM UTC-5, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:15:49 AM UTC-5, Leslie Mahler wrote:
> > Just by way of a reminder ... https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy..medieval/c/bIst5T6YfQw
>
> Hi Leslie,
>
> Please see my response on 14 Mar 2014 at the bottom of your cited chain. With respect to the Kettle document, see my note on 1 Dec 2022 in this chain. I am reminded of my questions on 4 and 7 Dec 2022 in this chain. Why did Waters make such an unfounded claim about the Weston pedigree, and why have so many people accepted and repeated his meritless arguments? The truth cannot be found by throwing dust in the air, citing secret correspondents, or making personal attacks; but it is available to those who are willing to examine original records – which my wife and I have done. Please see our work Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/
>
> Shawn

There could be more to be found on the Prested, Essex family of the Westons:

--John, son and heir of Richard Weston.
--Elizabeth Marler, previously the wife of Richard Weston, and John Carter, executors of Thomas Marler.
--The profits of the manor of Prested [Essex].

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lists_and_Indexes/bB4RAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22john+carter%22+%22thomas+marler%22+prested&pg=PA35&printsec=frontcover

Presumably this Richard was the one who died in 1541, with a wife Elizabeth and son John:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_New_England_Historical_and_Genealogi/-AEOby-E5U0C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22richard+weston%22+prested&pg=PA135&printsec=frontcover

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 11:22:30 AM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 8:35:49 AM UTC-5, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 1:15:49 AM UTC-5, Leslie Mahler wrote:
> > > Just by way of a reminder ... https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/bIst5T6YfQw
> >
> > Hi Leslie,
> >
> > Please see my response on 14 Mar 2014 at the bottom of your cited chain.. With respect to the Kettle document, see my note on 1 Dec 2022 in this chain. I am reminded of my questions on 4 and 7 Dec 2022 in this chain. Why did Waters make such an unfounded claim about the Weston pedigree, and why have so many people accepted and repeated his meritless arguments? The truth cannot be found by throwing dust in the air, citing secret correspondents, or making personal attacks; but it is available to those who are willing to examine original records – which my wife and I have done. Please see our work Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/
> >
> > Shawn
> There could be more to be found on the Prested, Essex family of the Westons:
>
> --John, son and heir of Richard Weston.
> --Elizabeth Marler, previously the wife of Richard Weston, and John Carter, executors of Thomas Marler.
> --The profits of the manor of Prested [Essex].
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lists_and_Indexes/bB4RAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22john+carter%22+%22thomas+marler%22+prested&pg=PA35&printsec=frontcover
>
> Presumably this Richard was the one who died in 1541, with a wife Elizabeth and son John:
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_New_England_Historical_and_Genealogi/-AEOby-E5U0C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22richard+weston%22+prested&pg=PA135&printsec=frontcover

--George Nevell.
--Ralph Weston and others.
--A grammar school at Rugeley [Stafford].

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lists_and_Indexes/7O8MAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=weston

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 12:16:28 PM UTC-5, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> > There could be more to be found on the Prested, Essex family of the Westons:

Hi Johnny,

I suspect you are right about the possibility of finding other records about the family of William Weston of Prested Hall. We have looked at the ones you mention.

Waters cites Morant (1768) as the first to suggest that Justice Weston was a descendant of the Weston family of Prested Hall, while lamenting the fact that Morant did not provide any support for his claim; and then Waters (1878) himself described Justice Weston as a member of the Weston family of Prested Hall, again without citing any records to make the connection. I suspect both Morant and Waters would have cited evidence of the connection if they had been able to find any.

During our research, we ordered and examined images of the more than 200 pages of manuscript documentation that accompanies the Weston pedigree, along with numerous independent contemporary records. The considerable evidence we discovered includes contemporary deeds, testimony from near relatives, statements by independent observers (such as the Archbishop of Canterbury and members of parliament), inheritance of valuable property, and inscriptions on church monuments – to name just a few. All these records point to the same conclusion – Justice Weston and Chancellor Weston were brothers, and their mother was Cecily Neville, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland. We present all this evidence in our book.

We also examine and evaluate the statements by Morant and Waters in our book. Our conclusion, based on our research, is that they both noticed similar Weston names in Essex County, where Justice Weston later settled and died, imagined the Prested Hall family connection, and published their supposition as fact; and then genealogists repeated their mistakes, without careful review of the original records, for almost 250 years.

Shawn

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 1:33:48 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> In the appendices of our book, we present a sample of Cecily Neville’s descents from Magna Carta sureties, companions at the Battle of Hastings, and many royal ancestors, including the following possible gateway to antiquity based on the work of Stanford Mommaerts-Browne, “Monomachos, Tornikes and An Uncharted Caucasian Ancestry,” in Journal for the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (Hereford, UK: Foundations for Medieval Genealogy, 2006), 2 (Number 2), 158-162.
>

The journal name is Foundations, with Journal for the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy being its descriptive subtitle. The article can be read here:
https://fmg.ac/publications/journal/volume-2/category/47-fnd-2-2

I have no expertise in this area, but feel it is worth pointing out that this is not a proven descent, having several speculative/uncertain links that merit elaboration, lest some naive reader misinterpret its representation without qualification here as reflecting certainty.

> 28. Smbat VII, Constable of Armenia = dau. of Shmuegh II Mamikonian
> 27. Ashot IV, Constable of Armenia = ____
> 26. Bagrat I, Prince of Armenia = Arcruni
> 25. Tornik, Captive of Caliph in Baghdad = ____
> 24. Apuganem, Patrician = ____

There are multiple reconstructions of the Armenian princely family, and not all are in agreement that this is the line that connected Apuganem with Bagrat.

> 23. Tornik, Patrician = ____
> 22. Nicholas Tornikes = ____
> 21. Maria Tornikaena = Theodosios Monomachos, Magistrate of Byzantium

This connection is based on a statement by a source that Konstantinos had a rogue kinsman 'through his mother' named Leon Tornikes. The specific Greek word used to describe the relationship has an imprecise translation. Mommaerts-Browne concludes that the intended relationship was 1st cousin once removed, with Leon the grandson of the maternal uncle of Konstantinos, and hence that Konstantine's mother belonged to Leon's male line, the Tornikoi. He reaches this conclusion because the source says the relationship was through 'his [Konstantinos'] mother', rather than through 'their mothers''. I have concerns that this is an overly-specific interpretation of a vague relationship term that, as the author himself points out, is already being used in an atypical manner (usually being restricted to male-line kinship). Just as one trivial alternative, were the mother of Konstantinos the sister of Leon's paternal grandmother (or Leon's paternal grandmother herself, through a different marriage), it would still be 'through his mother' rather than 'through their mothers', and that doesn't even get into the vagaries of the whether 1st cousin once removed is the true degree of kinship intended, or if it was simply being used like the Latin 'nepos' was sometimes sloppily used to mean nothing more than 'younger male kinsman'.

The paternity given Konstantinos' mother (not called Maria by Mommaerts-Browne) combines this supposition that she was a Tornikaina with a chronological argument that she fell in the generation after the documented Nicholas Tornikes. In his own reconstructed ahnentafel, the author shows the generations of Nicholas Tornikes and his daughter in brackets, indicating that though he himself was making the argument, he viewed the relationship as speculative rather than proven.

> 20. Konstantinos IX Monomachos, Emperor of Byzantium = Helena Skleraina
> 19. Anastasia Monomacha = Vsevolod I, Grand Duke of Kiev
> 18. Vladimir Monomakh, Grand Duke of Kiev = Gytha of Wessex

There is no primary testimony as to the parentage of Anastasia (if that was even her name). It is only known that her son used the name Monomakh. There is nothing in surviving Byzantine records about this marriage. It is a presumption that she was daughter of Konstantinos IX. Mommaerts-Browne cites a source that says Konstantinos was the last male scion of the Monomachoi to back this presumption, but the argument is less than definitive.

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 2:10:52 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> I have no expertise in this area, but feel it is worth pointing out that this is not a proven descent, having several speculative/uncertain links that merit elaboration, lest some naive reader misinterpret its representation without qualification here as reflecting certainty.

Hi Todd,

Thank you for including our description of this line as a “possible” gateway to antiquity, and our citation of Stanford Mommaerts-Browne as the author of the article. As you know, proposed gateways to antiquity are controversial, but of great interest, which is why we included the line, with citations, in the appendices. By the way, we believe Stanford deserves to be complemented for his work, and hope others will build on his labors. Perhaps your thoughts will contribute to that commendable effort.

Shawn

Hi Todd,

This discussion of possible gateways to antiquity is moving far afield from the original topic of this thread. Yet, we should mention that we also truly appreciate the work of Don C. Stone and Charles R. Owens, in “[Eirene?], First Wife of Emperor Isaakios II Angelos, Is a Probable Tornikina and Gateway to Antiquity,” Foundations (2011) 3 (5): 349-390. Although we did not include the line in the appendices of our book, this first wife of Emperor Isaakios II Angelos was another ancestor of Cecily Neville, wife of John Weston of Lichfield, daughter of Ralph Neville, Lord Neville, and sister of Ralph Neville, 4th Earl of Westmorland.

Shawn

On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 5:01:07 PM UTC-5, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Thank You, Shawn, for bringing the Weston lineage to light here (and I am reading through the long history of your Pedigree considerations). And also Thanks to Joe Cochoit on WikiTree for following your lead and giving a thumbs up to the Cecilia Neville-John Weston connection.

Paul,

My wife and I join you in thanking Joe for his longtime support for our work. We have the highest regard for his scholarship, professionalism, and determined pursuit of the truth.

Shawn

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 4:39:04 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 2, 2022 at 5:01:07 PM UTC-5, psbu...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Thank You, Shawn, for bringing the Weston lineage to light here (and I am reading through the long history of your Pedigree considerations). And also Thanks to Joe Cochoit on WikiTree for following your lead and giving a thumbs up to the Cecilia Neville-John Weston connection.
>
> Paul,
>
> My wife and I join you in thanking Joe for his longtime support for our work. We have the highest regard for his scholarship, professionalism, and determined pursuit of the truth.
>
> Shawn

Thank you Shawn. As you know I have been reading through your book, and trying to collect the evidence presented all in one place.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Notes_on_Cecilia_Weston (still a work in progress).

Of course, your book goes into much more detail than I can present on a webpage, and I would encourage anyone truly interested to read it for themselves. Most of the arguments are familiar from our previous discussions, but you are able to present all of the evidence in a single place and address the counter arguments. People seem to fixate on specific points, and not look at the evidence as a whole. Sure you can argue various points on any individual piece of evidence, but taken as a whole, the forgery or fabrication assertion just doesn't make sense. This is especially true if you look closely at all of the statements made by Waters and realize that literally every single one can be shown to be wrong - there was never a reason to doubt the Segar pedigree in the first place.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 1:33:48 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:23:02 AM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> > See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/
> In the appendices of our book, we present a sample of Cecily Neville’s descents from Magna Carta sureties, companions at the Battle of Hastings, and many royal ancestors, including the following possible gateway to antiquity based on the work of Stanford Mommaerts-Browne, “Monomachos, Tornikes and An Uncharted Caucasian Ancestry,” in Journal for the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (Hereford, UK: Foundations for Medieval Genealogy, 2006), 2 (Number 2), 158-162.
>
> 28. Smbat VII, Constable of Armenia = dau. of Shmuegh II Mamikonian
> 27. Ashot IV, Constable of Armenia = ____
> 26. Bagrat I, Prince of Armenia = Arcruni
> 25. Tornik, Captive of Caliph in Baghdad = ____
> 24. Apuganem, Patrician = ____
> 23. Tornik, Patrician = ____
> 22. Nicholas Tornikes = ____
> 21. Maria Tornikaena = Theodosios Monomachos, Magistrate of Byzantium
> 20. Konstantinos IX Monomachos, Emperor of Byzantium = Helena Skleraina
> 19. Anastasia Monomacha = Vsevolod I, Grand Duke of Kiev
> 18. Vladimir Monomakh, Grand Duke of Kiev = Gytha of Wessex
> 17. Mstislav I, Grand Duke of Kiev = Lubova Dmitrovna
> 16. Euphrosyne Mstislavna = Gesa II, King of Hungary
> 15. Bela III, King of Hungary = Agnes of Antioch
> 14. Andrew II, King of Hungary = Gertrude von Meran
> 13. Bela IV, King of Hungary = Maria Laskarina
> 12. Stephen V, King of Hungary = Elizabeth of Cumans
> 11. Maria of Hungary = Charles II, King of Naples
> 10. Margaret d’Anjou = Charles, Comte de Valois

Smbat VII was murdered by the Abbasids 775
I don't know why you call his son Ashot the "Constable" of Armenia since this is something like a police function
He was the Prince, or Governor of Armenia, depending on how you view his reign
His by-name was "the Carnivorous" which is a striking name that should be remembered

his son Bagrat was the Grand Ishkan of Taron
he was *living in 851 but we really, no matter what trees exist online, had almost *NO* idea of the years he lived
Not even within several decades

Same with his son Tornik
So suggesting that we can assign some Apuganum to even within a century for their life-dates is the rankest speculation based on *nothing* whatsoever. I repeat there are exactly *zero* sources, which give us this descent in this fashion.
Not one.

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 6:15:48 PM UTC-8, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 1:33:48 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 11:23:02 AM UTC-5, Shawn Potter wrote:
> > > See Weston Pedigree Reconsidered: A Review of Documentation Provided by the College of Arms (Woodbridge, VA: Renatus Press, 2022). https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL5B6YN5/
> > In the appendices of our book, we present a sample of Cecily Neville’s descents from Magna Carta sureties, companions at the Battle of Hastings, and many royal ancestors, including the following possible gateway to antiquity based on the work of Stanford Mommaerts-Browne, “Monomachos, Tornikes and An Uncharted Caucasian Ancestry,” in Journal for the Foundation for Medieval Genealogy (Hereford, UK: Foundations for Medieval Genealogy, 2006), 2 (Number 2), 158-162.
> >
> > 28. Smbat VII, Constable of Armenia = dau. of Shmuegh II Mamikonian
> > 27. Ashot IV, Constable of Armenia = ____
> > 26. Bagrat I, Prince of Armenia = Arcruni
> > 25. Tornik, Captive of Caliph in Baghdad = ____
> > 24. Apuganem, Patrician = ____
> > 23. Tornik, Patrician = ____
> > 22. Nicholas Tornikes = ____
> > 21. Maria Tornikaena = Theodosios Monomachos, Magistrate of Byzantium
> > 20. Konstantinos IX Monomachos, Emperor of Byzantium = Helena Skleraina
> > 19. Anastasia Monomacha = Vsevolod I, Grand Duke of Kiev
> > 18. Vladimir Monomakh, Grand Duke of Kiev = Gytha of Wessex
> > 17. Mstislav I, Grand Duke of Kiev = Lubova Dmitrovna
> > 16. Euphrosyne Mstislavna = Gesa II, King of Hungary
> > 15. Bela III, King of Hungary = Agnes of Antioch
> > 14. Andrew II, King of Hungary = Gertrude von Meran
> > 13. Bela IV, King of Hungary = Maria Laskarina
> > 12. Stephen V, King of Hungary = Elizabeth of Cumans
> > 11. Maria of Hungary = Charles II, King of Naples
> > 10. Margaret d’Anjou = Charles, Comte de Valois
> Smbat VII was murdered by the Abbasids 775
> I don't know why you call his son Ashot the "Constable" of Armenia since this is something like a police function
> He was the Prince, or Governor of Armenia, depending on how you view his reign
> His by-name was "the Carnivorous" which is a striking name that should be remembered
>
> his son Bagrat was the Grand Ishkan of Taron
> he was *living in 851 but we really, no matter what trees exist online, had almost *NO* idea of the years he lived
> Not even within several decades
>
> Same with his son Tornik
> So suggesting that we can assign some Apuganum to even within a century for their life-dates is the rankest speculation based on *nothing* whatsoever. I repeat there are exactly *zero* sources, which give us this descent in this fashion.
> Not one.

Will, get a dictionary and learn to use it.
Constable (American Heritage College Dictionary, 4th edition):
1) A police officer with less authority and smaller jurisdiction than a sheriff
2) A medieval officer of high rank, usually serving as military commander in the absence of a monarch
3) The governor of a royal castle
4) (Chiefly British) A police officer

2 and 3 are clearly older meanings of the word.

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 9:15:48 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> ... So suggesting that we can assign some Apuganum to even within a century for their life-dates is the rankest speculation based on *nothing* whatsoever. I repeat there are exactly *zero* sources, which give us this descent in this fashion. Not one.

Hi Will,

Since Stanford Mommaerts-Browne wrote the article, he may be the best person to answer your concerns. I am not an authority on medieval or ancient Armenian genealogy, but his arguments made sense to me.

Shawn

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 12:11:05 PM UTC-8, shp...@gmail.com wrote:

> Thank you for including our description of this line as a “possible” gateway to antiquity, and our citation of Stanford Mommaerts-Browne as the author of the article. As you know, proposed gateways to antiquity are controversial, but of great interest, which is why we included the line, with citations, in the appendices.

Yes, I do know, and for exactly that reason it is worthwhile, when presenting such a line, to explicitly distinguish documented connections from speculated ones. Too many sloppy people lifting lines without reading any accompanying discussion or citations to leave the specific problematic connections uncommented upon. (I say this having been burned several times, posting speculative material only to find it reproduced in internet trees as if it was gospel. Some of this is going to happen anyhow, but I would rather not feed the beast.)

taf

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 11:50:04 PM UTC-5, taf wrote:
> Yes, I do know, and for exactly that reason it is worthwhile, when presenting such a line, to explicitly distinguish documented connections from speculated ones. Too many sloppy people lifting lines without reading any accompanying discussion or citations to leave the specific problematic connections uncommented upon. (I say this having been burned several times, posting speculative material only to find it reproduced in internet trees as if it was gospel. Some of this is going to happen anyhow, but I would rather not feed the beast.)

Hi Todd,

I share your concern about people lifting lines without reading accompanying discussion or citations; and I see this challenge as an uphill battle in the age of the internet. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning when you wrote: “without qualification here as reflecting certainty.” You and I may disagree about when it is sufficient to describe a proposed line as possible and cite the article that presents its strengths and weaknesses, and when it is necessary to expound upon the certainty of each generation in the line; but I do not disagree with your analysis or your desire to avoid feeding the beast.

Shawn