The HOP website for William Ryman (d. 1443) gives that he married (1st) Elizabeth, dau of William Colville of Arncliffe, Yorks., wid. of Roger Elmham.

It goes on to say: "Ryman’s first wife, Elizabeth, was the widow of a ‘King’s esquire’ in the service of Richard II and Henry IV, who, being herself a former member of the royal household, enjoyed on her own account an annuity of £20 from the issues of Norfolk."

It is this 'Roger Elmham' in whom I am interested, and about whom I am currently writing a biography.

Roger Elmham was a diplomat, working out of the Privy Seal Office, and was indeed described as a King's Esquire in Dec 1396, (CCR, Rich II, 1396-1399, p. 27), and his wife was indeed called 'Elizabeth'.

However, Roger Elmham's wife was given as Elizabeth Vancourt (Inq. Misc. Rich II, 1392-1399, no. 163) in May 1397, and earlier, in 1384 Roger Elmham and Elizabeth Vancourt were granted a rent by the king, in survivorship, though it does not describe Elizabeth as his wife at that time (CPR, Rich II, 1381-1385, p. 456).

By 22 October 1403 Roger Elmham had died, as on that date an order was sent to the sheriff of Norfolk, ‘to pay to Elizabeth wife of Roger Elmham esquire deceased £20 a year and the arrears since 7 June 2 Henry IV, on which date the king granted to the said Roger and Elizabeth for their lives and the life of the longest liver £20 a year of the issues and profits of that county, over and above £10 a year which the said Roger had for life by grant of the late king confirmed by the king.’

Unfortunately, while the HOP website gives references for most of its factoids, the assertion that Roger's wife was Elizabeth, dau of William Colville of Arncliffe, Yorks., is unreferenced.

So, is the HOP website in error, or did Roger Elmham marry twice, 1st to Elizabeth (Colville) and 2nd to Elizabeth (Vancourt), or were there two men named Roger Elmham? Professor Tout tried to untangle this problem, but did not come to a firm conclusion, (Chapters, Vol. 5, pp. 94), which I suspect is because he thought that Roger Elmham was merely a clerk in the Privy Seal Office, and not a senior diplomat, as indeed he was.

If anyone can help throw any light on this conundrum, it would be much appreciated.

On Monday, 30 January 2023 at 18:12:14 UTC+1, Wibs wrote:
> The HOP website for William Ryman (d. 1443) gives that he married (1st) Elizabeth, dau of William Colville of Arncliffe, Yorks., wid. of Roger Elmham.
>
> It goes on to say: "Ryman’s first wife, Elizabeth, was the widow of a ‘King’s esquire’ in the service of Richard II and Henry IV, who, being herself a former member of the royal household, enjoyed on her own account an annuity of £20 from the issues of Norfolk."
>
> It is this 'Roger Elmham' in whom I am interested, and about whom I am currently writing a biography.
>
> Roger Elmham was a diplomat, working out of the Privy Seal Office, and was indeed described as a King's Esquire in Dec 1396, (CCR, Rich II, 1396-1399, p. 27), and his wife was indeed called 'Elizabeth'.
>
> However, Roger Elmham's wife was given as Elizabeth Vancourt (Inq. Misc. Rich II, 1392-1399, no. 163) in May 1397, and earlier, in 1384 Roger Elmham and Elizabeth Vancourt were granted a rent by the king, in survivorship, though it does not describe Elizabeth as his wife at that time (CPR, Rich II, 1381-1385, p. 456).
>
> By 22 October 1403 Roger Elmham had died, as on that date an order was sent to the sheriff of Norfolk, ‘to pay to Elizabeth wife of Roger Elmham esquire deceased £20 a year and the arrears since 7 June 2 Henry IV, on which date the king granted to the said Roger and Elizabeth for their lives and the life of the longest liver £20 a year of the issues and profits of that county, over and above £10 a year which the said Roger had for life by grant of the late king confirmed by the king.’
>
> Unfortunately, while the HOP website gives references for most of its factoids, the assertion that Roger's wife was Elizabeth, dau of William Colville of Arncliffe, Yorks., is unreferenced.
>
> So, is the HOP website in error, or did Roger Elmham marry twice, 1st to Elizabeth (Colville) and 2nd to Elizabeth (Vancourt), or were there two men named Roger Elmham? Professor Tout tried to untangle this problem, but did not come to a firm conclusion, (Chapters, Vol. 5, pp. 94), which I suspect is because he thought that Roger Elmham was merely a clerk in the Privy Seal Office, and not a senior diplomat, as indeed he was.
>
> If anyone can help throw any light on this conundrum, it would be much appreciated.

I have now managed to confirm that the HOP was correct in naming Elizabeth, dau of William Colville of Arncliffe, Yorks. as the widow of Roger Elmham. The problem was the Calendar of Patent Rolls entry confirming this had mis-spelt Elmham as Elingham (CPR, Hen VI, 1422-1429, p. 85). But I have also confirmed that the lady that Roger Elmham did marry was named as Elizabeth Vancourt, so I am now wondering if it was Elizabeth Colville that married twice, once to an unnamed Mr. Vancourt (or possibly Fancourt), and secondly to Roger Elmham. Thoughts?
Wibs