Greetings,

I’m belatedly following-up on the correspondence in this thread. By way of a brief refresher, I’m trying to determine if there is any blood relationship between Goismer and his descendants, including his son Humphrey fitz Goismer and grandson Robert fitz Humphrey, and the Clare family. I set out earlier evidence which corroborates a relationship – but not necessarily a blood one. If there was a blood relationship, it most likely, from a chronological perspective, would have been Goismer marrying a Clare or Gifford daughter. In summary the arguments in favour of a close relationship are as follows:

[1] The onomastics of the family.
[2] The usually prominent placement in the witness lists of Clare family member charters together with established members of the Clare family including, for example, (i) the presence of brothers Guncelin and Humphrey (in that order) in a grant by Gilbert fitz Richard and his wife Rohese Gifford of 20s in Tonbridge c 1105-1117 (https://deeds.library.utoronto.ca/charters/05520010/gosm%2A) where Guncelin and Humphrey witness 3rd and 4th after Gilbert’s brother Walter and Girardo the chaplain and the foundation charter of St. Neot’s Priory by Richard and Rohese c 1113 (https://books.google.ca/books?redir_esc=y&id=lRUHAAAAQAAJ&q=Filius+goismerii#v=snippet&q=Filius%20goismerii&f=false ) and (ii) the grant by Robert son of Martin to the monks of Tiron of the church of St. Dogmael’s in 1121 (https://ia802606.us.archive.org/9/items/regestaregumangl02grea/regestaregumangl02grea.pdf) where Humphrey witnesses 4th after Bishop Bernard, William the abbot of Tiron and Richard fitz Gilbert and immediately before Stephen the king’s dapifer.

[3] Robert fitz Humphrey being a constable of both Gilbert and Roger de Clare.

[4] The acquisition of property in Wales by the family alongside the Clares..

With regard to item #1 above, my understanding of the family names is as follows:

[A] Goismer (b c 1050-1060) had at least six sons and possible a 7th:
(* = speculative)

• Alger – sons – Richard and Geoffrey*
• Guncelin – sons – Conan*
• Herluin - sons – Gilbert (predeceased his father) and Geoffrey*
• Humphrey
• Walter
• William
• Ralph*

The existence of any daughters and the identity of the sons’ wives remains unknown.

[B] Humphrey (b c 1080-1090) had at least 4 sons and possibly as many as 9:

• Roger
• Gilbert
• Robert (constable under earls Gilbert and Roger de Clare – sons Stephen II de Camoys, Walter de Camoys, Humphrey fitz Robert* - wife is Petronilla and Adam fitz Robert*
• Walter – son Humphrey fitz Walter (b c 1170) and grandson Walter fitz Humphrey (b c 1190-1200)
• Ralph* - wife is Liece and daughter Mabel married Roger Walensis
• Richard* - son Guncelin fitz Richard*
• Geoffrey*
• Reginald*
• William*

A few queries:

[I] Do the names of Goismer’s sons – Alger, Guncelin, Herluin, Humphrey, Walter, William and Ralph – shed any light on his possible background?

[II] Do the use of the names Geoffrey x3, Richard x2, Gilbert x2, Conan, Ralph, Reginald, Robert, Roger, Walter, and William by the sons of Goismer necessarily derive from ancestors/relatives or could they have been selected in honour of their superiors including members of the Clare family?

Cheers,

Pete

Greetings, I recognize my post from earlier today was a bit lengthy. Thus, I've set out below my principal inquiries in the event anyone has commentary to provide. Much appreciated! Cheers, Pete

[I] Do the names of Goismer’s sons – Alger, Guncelin, Herluin, Humphrey, Walter, William and Ralph – shed any light on his possible background?

[II] Does the use of the names - Geoffrey x3, Richard x2, Gilbert x2, Conan, Ralph, Reginald, Robert, Roger, Walter, and William - by the sons of Goismer necessarily derive from ancestors/relatives or could they have been selected in honour of their superiors including members of the Clare family?

Cheers,

Pete

On 11-Aug-21 4:11 AM, Peter G. M. Dale wrote:
> Greetings, I recognize my post from earlier today was a bit lengthy. Thus, I've set out below my principal inquiries in the event anyone has commentary to provide. Much appreciated! Cheers, Pete
>
> [I] Do the names of Goismer’s sons – Alger, Guncelin, Herluin, Humphrey, Walter, William and Ralph – shed any light on his possible background?
>
> [II] Does the use of the names - Geoffrey x3, Richard x2, Gilbert x2, Conan, Ralph, Reginald, Robert, Roger, Walter, and William - by the sons of Goismer necessarily derive from ancestors/relatives or could they have been selected in honour of their superiors including members of the Clare family?
>

I'm afraid your questions can't be meaningfully answered. You are
basically asking "Was there a general rule for naming and did this apply
in a particular instance?"

The only sensible response is to say there was observable custom, not
fixed rule, and that without much more evidence than you present we have
no way of discerning how far custom was observed in any whole generation.

If an heir had the same name as his paternal grandfather and a second
son the same name as his maternal grandfather, we can suppose that this
was from familial piety rather than coincidence. But even then we may be
deluding ourselves in a specific case.

The same limited stock of names was spread from the top to the bottom of
the social hierarchy. Serfs belonging to abbeys demonstrably used the
same names as lords who were - as laymen - not their direct superiors in
a feudal sense. Medieval people favoured names and found them auspicious
for reasons that we can only guess at. Their modern descendants still do.

Peter Stewart

Greetings,

I'm trying to obtain a copy of the article 'Land and Service: The Tenants of the Honour of Clare', by Richard Mortimer which is found in 'Proceedings of the Battle Conference 1985, edited by Reginald Allen Brown, pp. 177-198. I cannot seem to obtain pp. 181, 184, 185, 190, 191, 196-198 due to copyright restrictions. I'd be grateful if anyone who has access to this article could e-mail me a copy - pdale (at) peterdale (dot) com. Alternatively, if you could send me the missing pages that would be great as well. I can assure all that this is strictly for personal, non-commercial, research purposes in the event there are any copyright concerns.

Regards,

Pete
pdale (at) peterdale (dot) com