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interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: Which bar point?

SubjectAuthor
* Which bar point?ah....Clem
+* Re: Which bar point?J R
|+- Re: Which bar point?badgolferman
|`- Re: Which bar point?Timothy Chow
+* Re: Which bar point?Timothy Chow
|`- Re: Which bar point?ah....Clem
`- Rollout: Which bar point?ah....Clem

1
Which bar point?

<sa7op2$ala$1@dont-email.me>

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Which bar point?
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 10:23:30 -0400
Organization: The Future Fair
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 by: ah....Clem - Mon, 14 Jun 2021 14:23 UTC

XGID=-a--aAD-C--AdDa--c-e----B-:0:0:1:66:0:0:3:0:10

X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O X |
| X O | | O X |
| X O | | O |
| X | | O |
| | | O |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| O | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X X | | X X O O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 164 O: 162 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 66

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Re: Which bar point?

<b00f2a70-40ea-4f6a-8c70-f85fac6933e8n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Which bar point?
From: jacob.r...@gmail.com (J R)
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 by: J R - Mon, 14 Jun 2021 16:43 UTC

On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 10:23:31 AM UTC-4, ah....Clem wrote:
> XGID=-a--aAD-C--AdDa--c-e----B-:0:0:1:66:0:0:3:0:10
>
> X:Player 1 O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O O | | O X |
> | X O | | O X |
> | X O | | O |
> | X | | O |
> | | | O |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | |
> | O | | X |
> | O X | | X |
> | O X | | X |
> | O X X | | X X O O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 164 O: 162 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 66
>
>
>
>
> --
> Ah....Clem
> The future is fun, the future is fair.

Almost always in this situation in the opening you make the offensive bar point. However the duplication of the opponent's threes combined with the location of his outfield builder make this an exception and we should make the defensive bar and slot our own.

Stick

Re: Which bar point?

<xn0mz4nzpizm14p000@nntp.aioe.org>

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From: REMOVETH...@gmail.com (badgolferman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Which bar point?
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 17:43:42 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: badgolferman - Mon, 14 Jun 2021 17:43 UTC

J R wrote:

>On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 10:23:31 AM UTC-4, ah....Clem wrote:
>> XGID=-a--aAD-C--AdDa--c-e----B-:0:0:1:66:0:0:3:0:10
>>
>> X:Player 1 O:Player 2
>> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
>> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>> | X O O | | O X |
>> | X O | | O X |
>> | X O | | O |
>> | X | | O |
>> | | | O |
>> | |BAR| |
>> | | | |
>> | O | | X |
>> | O X | | X |
>> | O X | | X |
>> | O X X | | X X O O |
>> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
>> Pip count X: 164 O: 162 X-O: 0-0
>> Cube: 1
>> X to play 66
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ah....Clem
>> The future is fun, the future is fair.
>
>Almost always in this situation in the opening you make the offensive
>bar point. However the duplication of the opponent's threes combined
>with the location of his outfield builder make this an exception and
>we should make the defensive bar and slot our own.
>
>Stick

Now this is a helpful analysis which I can learn from. However I would
probably still play the single 6 from the 24-point.

Re: Which bar point?

<saabjb$bso$2@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Which bar point?
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 09:56:57 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Tue, 15 Jun 2021 13:56 UTC

On 6/14/2021 10:23 AM, ah....Clem wrote:
>
> XGID=-a--aAD-C--AdDa--c-e----B-:0:0:1:66:0:0:3:0:10
>
> X:Player 1   O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
>  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>  | X  O        O    |   | O              X |
>  | X           O    |   | O              X |
>  | X           O    |   | O                |
>  | X                |   | O                |
>  |                  |   | O                |
>  |                  |BAR|                  |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  | O                |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O  X        X    |   | X  X  O        O |
>  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count  X: 164  O: 162 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 66

This looks a bit like a problem from Robertie's book. The first
three 6's are automatic: 11/5 24/18 13/7. In this position, I'd
much rather get hit on the 18pt than the 7pt so I cover the 7pt
with 13/7.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Which bar point?

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Which bar point?
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 09:58:53 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Tue, 15 Jun 2021 13:58 UTC

On 6/14/2021 12:43 PM, J R wrote:

> Almost always in this situation in the opening you make the offensive bar point. However the duplication of the opponent's threes combined with the location of his outfield builder make this an exception and we should make the defensive bar and slot our own.

Interesting. I think I would have caught the duplication
of threes if O's outfield checker had been on her 10pt
(recalling Nack's repeated emphasis on the 10pt builder),
but I missed it here.

---
Tim Chow

Rollout: Which bar point?

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Rollout: Which bar point?
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 17:14:04 -0400
Organization: The Future Fair
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 by: ah....Clem - Wed, 16 Jun 2021 21:14 UTC

On 6/14/2021 10:23 AM, ah....Clem wrote:
>
> XGID=-a--aAD-C--AdDa--c-e----B-:0:0:1:66:0:0:3:0:10
>
> X:Player 1   O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
>  +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>  | X  O        O    |   | O              X |
>  | X           O    |   | O              X |
>  | X           O    |   | O                |
>  | X                |   | O                |
>  |                  |   | O                |
>  |                  |BAR|                  |
>  |                  |   |                  |
>  | O                |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O           X    |   | X                |
>  | O  X        X    |   | X  X  O        O |
>  +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count  X: 164  O: 162 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 66

XG 3-ply makes the seven point. XGR+, XGR++, and rollout all say make
the 18 point. But it's not a huge error to make the seven.

A blot on the 18 is exposed to a triple shot while a blot on the seven
only exposes a double shot. And as Stick points out, 3s are duped if we
slot the seven.

XGID=-a--aAD-C--AdDa--c-e----B-:0:0:1:66:0:0:3:0:10

1. Rollout¹ 24/18(2) 13/7 11/5 eq:+0.529
Player: 62.05% (G:18.86% B:0.76%)
Opponent: 37.95% (G:7.60% B:0.31%)
Confidence: ±0.014 (+0.516..+0.543) - [100.0%]
Duration: 8 minutes 27 seconds

2. Rollout¹ 24/18 13/7(2) 11/5 eq:+0.491 (-0.038)
Player: 61.91% (G:18.39% B:1.14%)
Opponent: 38.09% (G:9.06% B:0.38%)
Confidence: ±0.016 (+0.475..+0.507) - [0.0%]
Duration: 8 minutes 43 seconds

¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

Re: Which bar point?

<sadpmc$5mu$2@dont-email.me>

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah....Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Which bar point?
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 17:15:57 -0400
Organization: The Future Fair
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 by: ah....Clem - Wed, 16 Jun 2021 21:15 UTC

On 6/15/2021 9:56 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> On 6/14/2021 10:23 AM, ah....Clem wrote:

> This looks a bit like a problem from Robertie's book.  The first
> three 6's are automatic: 11/5 24/18 13/7.  In this position, I'd
> much rather get hit on the 18pt than the 7pt so I cover the 7pt
> with 13/7.

It came from the Facebook Humans vs XG online games. Everyone voted for
making the seven, even neilkaz.

--
Ah....Clem
The future is fun, the future is fair.

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