On 19-Mar-23 8:47 PM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> Count Arnulf (and his wife and son, who you claim is only known from much later) appear in Gent records in the 980s, giving grants of lands in exactly the same pagus of Caribant.

Can you please post citations for these 980s Gent records that include
Arnulf with his wife and son?

There is a single charter of Arnulf for Saint-Pierre abbey dated 29 June
983, already discussed in this thread, donating an inherited estate in
the pagus of Caribant for the soul of his deceased brother Roger - but
no wife or son of Arnulf are mentioned in it.

Apart from that I can only find two charters of Arnulf with his wife
Lietgard and son Adalbert, dated 1 January 994 and 30 September 998
respectively, which is why I wrote that Adalbert does not occur until
three decades after the 960s. He certainly does not appear among the
crowd of counts who were drawn like moths to the dying flame of his
grandmother's sickbed at Sint-Truiden in 967.

Peter Stewart

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On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 4:39:59 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 19-Mar-23 8:47 PM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
> <snip>
> > Count Arnulf (and his wife and son, who you claim is only known from much later) appear in Gent records in the 980s, giving grants of lands in exactly the same pagus of Caribant.
> Can you please post citations for these 980s Gent records that include
> Arnulf with his wife and son?
>
> There is a single charter of Arnulf for Saint-Pierre abbey dated 29 June
> 983, already discussed in this thread, donating an inherited estate in
> the pagus of Caribant for the soul of his deceased brother Roger - but
> no wife or son of Arnulf are mentioned in it.
>
> Apart from that I can only find two charters of Arnulf with his wife
> Lietgard and son Adalbert, dated 1 January 994 and 30 September 998
> respectively, which is why I wrote that Adalbert does not occur until
> three decades after the 960s. He certainly does not appear among the
> crowd of counts who were drawn like moths to the dying flame of his
> grandmother's sickbed at Sint-Truiden in 967.

Those are indeed the charters. You were therefore probably correct that Adalbert does not appear until roughly 3 decades later. The only point I'd add is that Koch believed the dates to be wrong. Quibbling, he appears between 2 and 3 decades after 967.

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 1:54:51 AM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
> The name Richilde is not very helpful in narrowing down potential birth
> families for the countess. This was most notably associated with Charles
> the Bald's second wife, daughter of a count of Metz, whose only
> descendants were through her own daughter married to a count named
> Roger. Onomastics zealots may instinctively react "Bingo!" and mark
> their cards accordingly, since Roger was the name of Richilde of
> Hainaut's eldest son and she was said to have imperial blood. But of
> course genealogy, like reality, does not work that way. The Roger
> married to Empress Richilde's daughter was a count of Maine whose
> dynasty cannot be shown to have used the name Roger ever again or that
> of Richilde at all for certain, nor to have made any marriage
> connections in the north-east of France. The name Richilde pops up
> occasionally by the early 11th century in other families closer to
> Hainaut, for example a countess of Blois whose descendants were counts
> of Champagne (a younger son of one of them was successor to Richilde's
> son Roger as bishop of Châlons-sur-Marne); and another Richilde of
> unknown family origin married to Thierry I, duke of Upper Lorraine, with
> descendants including counts of Bar, Mousson, Arlon etc, all
> consanguineous with Herman of Hainaut via Hugo Capet through Thierry,
> but no Rogers or Richildes on record before the time of interest.
>
> The name Roger given to Richilde of Hainaut's eldest son, along with the
> hereditary claim she and/or this son's father Herman had to
> Valenciennes, led Henri Pirenne to speculate that she was a niece of
> Arnulf of Cambrai, count of Valenciennes at the beginning of the 11th
> century, who had a brother named Roger. The latter was proposed by
> Pirenne as a possible father of Richilde, but since he was dead before
> the end of June 983 he was certainly not the parent of a woman whose
> last son was born ca 1055. However, Arnulf had another brother named
> Reginar, and Platelle further suggested that this man may have been her
> father - also perhaps the source of medieval confusion making her the
> daughter of his namesake, her father-in-law Reginar V of Hainaut. This
> scheme is hardly convincing from the chronology, since Arnulf's siblings
> most probably belonged to the broad age-group of Richilde's grandparents
> (unless she was born to a father in his 70s), but it has the advantage
> of locating her family origin closer to the little else reported or
> implied about her blood relatives. Pirenne pointed to the frequency of
> the name Richilde in 11th-century charters from Hainaut as supporting
> his conjecture (that he somewhat hopefully called a conclusion).
>

I read that Gilles D'Orval writing c1250, said that her father was Reginar
son of Reginar. I dont have a ref for this but it seems he was cited
by Van Droogenbroeck work which I havnt seen either. I cant believe that
GD meant by this reginar V son of Reginar IV, or else she would have married
her own brother, clearly ridiculous. But what if this indicates that her father
was Reginar son of Reginar the brother of Arnulf of Valenciennes?

Something like this:

1 Reginar [983? bro of Arnulf of Valenciennes d1011/12]
2 Reginar son of Reginar
3 Richilde [c1020-1086] dau of Reginar son Reginar

I dont think the chronology is such a stretch.

I havnt looked at how to square this with the reference in Flandria
generosa that she was the neice/neptis of Pope Leo or he was
her uncle until i've read your part2b.

snip
>
> The name Agnes given to Richilde's daughter, presumably the otherwise
> unnamed child of Herman said to have been consigned to a nunnery by her
> step-father Balduin of Flanders, is not much more helpful. Roger was
> probably born by 1036 and Agnes was apparently younger than him if she
> was encloistered around 1051 and yet had the opportunity to leave and
> possibly wish to marry by 1071, as mentioned before. The likelihood that
> Agnes was Herman's daughter is indicated by her occurring in a charter
> of her mother's son Arnulf of Flanders written after his father Balduin
> VI's death on 17 July 1070. This was a donation for the souls of both
> his father Balduin and his mother's prior husband Herman to Saint-Hubert
> abbey in the Ardennes of allods in Huy (Ardenne) and Namur (Hesbaye),
> which appear more likely to have come into his possession from
> Richilde's own family or through her from the maternal inheritance of
> Herman, and so either way concerning their daughter, than directly to
> Arnulf through Balduin or by acquisition. In any case, King/Emperor
> Heinrich III's wife from November 1043 was Agnes of Poitou and
> Richilde's daughter may have been named in her honour if born ca 1044,
> which would fit well enough with her not being a professed nun in the
> early 1050s and still freely able to think of marrying in the early 1070s..
>

French wiki has Roger and the nun Gertrude from her first marriage
and Alix, Arnulf III Baldwin II and Agnes from her 2nd. It says the
2nd marriage was annuled and they were excommunicated, but
obtained special dispensation from Leo IX. Theres no ref, but
Van Droogenbroeck work [which youve already trodden on] is
cited at the end. You have already cited the Flandria Generosa
as saying they excommunicated by their bishop, but does the
other info also come from this source or is it just assumed?

snip

> Richilde herself donated to Saint-Hubert in 1071 an estate at Chevigny,
> less than 15kms south of the abbey, that was specifically said to come
> from her patrimony but possibly may have come to her instead from the
> property of Herman's mother. This lady was the daughter of Herman of
> Verdun, margrave of Ename, from the dynasty of Ardenne. His agnatic

In many places on french sites, Richildes mother is called Matilda of
Verdun! I see that Pope Leo is occasionally 'given' a sister called
Matilda who was the wife of Richwin count of Scarponne 1019-43.

Mike

Op dinsdag 21 maart 2023 om 02:26:28 UTC+1 schreef mike davis:
[knip]
> I read that Gilles D'Orval writing c1250, said that her father was Reginar
> son of Reginar. I dont have a ref for this but it seems he was cited
> by Van Droogenbroeck work which I havnt seen either.

The publications of Frans Van Droogenbroeck can be downloaded from Academia.
https://trismegistos.academia.edu/FransVanDroogenbroeck

>[knip]
> Mike

With regards,
Hans Vogels

On 21-Mar-23 12:26 PM, mike davis wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 1:54:51 AM UTC, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> The name Richilde is not very helpful in narrowing down potential birth
>> families for the countess. This was most notably associated with Charles
>> the Bald's second wife, daughter of a count of Metz, whose only
>> descendants were through her own daughter married to a count named
>> Roger. Onomastics zealots may instinctively react "Bingo!" and mark
>> their cards accordingly, since Roger was the name of Richilde of
>> Hainaut's eldest son and she was said to have imperial blood. But of
>> course genealogy, like reality, does not work that way. The Roger
>> married to Empress Richilde's daughter was a count of Maine whose
>> dynasty cannot be shown to have used the name Roger ever again or that
>> of Richilde at all for certain, nor to have made any marriage
>> connections in the north-east of France. The name Richilde pops up
>> occasionally by the early 11th century in other families closer to
>> Hainaut, for example a countess of Blois whose descendants were counts
>> of Champagne (a younger son of one of them was successor to Richilde's
>> son Roger as bishop of Châlons-sur-Marne); and another Richilde of
>> unknown family origin married to Thierry I, duke of Upper Lorraine, with
>> descendants including counts of Bar, Mousson, Arlon etc, all
>> consanguineous with Herman of Hainaut via Hugo Capet through Thierry,
>> but no Rogers or Richildes on record before the time of interest.
>>
>> The name Roger given to Richilde of Hainaut's eldest son, along with the
>> hereditary claim she and/or this son's father Herman had to
>> Valenciennes, led Henri Pirenne to speculate that she was a niece of
>> Arnulf of Cambrai, count of Valenciennes at the beginning of the 11th
>> century, who had a brother named Roger. The latter was proposed by
>> Pirenne as a possible father of Richilde, but since he was dead before
>> the end of June 983 he was certainly not the parent of a woman whose
>> last son was born ca 1055. However, Arnulf had another brother named
>> Reginar, and Platelle further suggested that this man may have been her
>> father - also perhaps the source of medieval confusion making her the
>> daughter of his namesake, her father-in-law Reginar V of Hainaut. This
>> scheme is hardly convincing from the chronology, since Arnulf's siblings
>> most probably belonged to the broad age-group of Richilde's grandparents
>> (unless she was born to a father in his 70s), but it has the advantage
>> of locating her family origin closer to the little else reported or
>> implied about her blood relatives. Pirenne pointed to the frequency of
>> the name Richilde in 11th-century charters from Hainaut as supporting
>> his conjecture (that he somewhat hopefully called a conclusion).
>>
>
> I read that Gilles D'Orval writing c1250, said that her father was Reginar
> son of Reginar. I dont have a ref for this but it seems he was cited
> by Van Droogenbroeck work which I havnt seen either. I cant believe that
> GD meant by this reginar V son of Reginar IV, or else she would have married
> her own brother, clearly ridiculous. But what if this indicates that her father
> was Reginar son of Reginar the brother of Arnulf of Valenciennes?
>
> Something like this:
>
> 1 Reginar [983? bro of Arnulf of Valenciennes d1011/12]
> 2 Reginar son of Reginar
> 3 Richilde [c1020-1086] dau of Reginar son Reginar
>
> I dont think the chronology is such a stretch.
>
> I havnt looked at how to square this with the reference in Flandria
> generosa that she was the neice/neptis of Pope Leo or he was
> her uncle until i've read your part2b.

The passage in question is here (pp. 79-80):
https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_ss_25/index.htm#page/79/mode/2up.
It says that Countess Richilde of Hainaut was the daughter of Count
Reginar son of Count Reginar Long-neck, and that she was the sole
heiress of the county of Hainaut ("Fuit autem ista Richildis comitissa
Haynonie filia Raineri comitis, filii comitis Raineri Longi colli. Hanc
autem, quia unica erat heres comitatus Haynonie ..."). Obviously Gilles
d'Orval did not understand that Herman was the sole heir as son of
Reginar the son of Reginar Long-neck, so he was not in any way
suggesting an incestuous marriage but just making a wrong assumption
from Richilde's holding Hainaut in her own right after Herman's death
when she married Balduin of Flanders.

A decade or so earlier in the 13th century the same mistake had been
made by Aubry of Troisfontaines. Today we see that journalists with far
better resources for gathering and checking information make such
mistakes and misinterpretations, but some readers have an irrational
difficulty in accepting that medieval writers ever made plain and
complete blunders. Trying to minimise the error in this case - as in all
others - is a pointless exercise that only raises new difficulties. Why
for starters would an eldest son with a father named Herman and two
grandfathers both named Reginar be given the dynastically unprecedented
name Roger?

> snip
>>
>> The name Agnes given to Richilde's daughter, presumably the otherwise
>> unnamed child of Herman said to have been consigned to a nunnery by her
>> step-father Balduin of Flanders, is not much more helpful. Roger was
>> probably born by 1036 and Agnes was apparently younger than him if she
>> was encloistered around 1051 and yet had the opportunity to leave and
>> possibly wish to marry by 1071, as mentioned before. The likelihood that
>> Agnes was Herman's daughter is indicated by her occurring in a charter
>> of her mother's son Arnulf of Flanders written after his father Balduin
>> VI's death on 17 July 1070. This was a donation for the souls of both
>> his father Balduin and his mother's prior husband Herman to Saint-Hubert
>> abbey in the Ardennes of allods in Huy (Ardenne) and Namur (Hesbaye),
>> which appear more likely to have come into his possession from
>> Richilde's own family or through her from the maternal inheritance of
>> Herman, and so either way concerning their daughter, than directly to
>> Arnulf through Balduin or by acquisition. In any case, King/Emperor
>> Heinrich III's wife from November 1043 was Agnes of Poitou and
>> Richilde's daughter may have been named in her honour if born ca 1044,
>> which would fit well enough with her not being a professed nun in the
>> early 1050s and still freely able to think of marrying in the early 1070s.
>>
>
> French wiki has Roger and the nun Gertrude from her first marriage
> and Alix, Arnulf III Baldwin II and Agnes from her 2nd. It says the
> 2nd marriage was annuled and they were excommunicated, but
> obtained special dispensation from Leo IX. Theres no ref, but
> Van Droogenbroeck work [which youve already trodden on] is
> cited at the end. You have already cited the Flandria Generosa
> as saying they excommunicated by their bishop, but does the
> other info also come from this source or is it just assumed?

This has been covered upthread - there is no medieval evidence known to
me that Richilde had a daughter named Gertrude and the recorded daughter
Agnes (not Alix) may have been from her first marriage, while the
characterisation of Leo IX's reported off-hand or at any rate (under
canon law) peculiar response when hearing of Richilde's second marriage
as a "special dispensation" is inventive to say the least. This is
recounted in 'Flandria generosa' here (p. 320, lines 30-35, misnaming
the bishop who had allegedly excommunicated the couple):
https://www.dmgh.de/mgh_ss_9/index.htm#page/320/mode/1up.

> snip
>
>> Richilde herself donated to Saint-Hubert in 1071 an estate at Chevigny,
>> less than 15kms south of the abbey, that was specifically said to come
>> from her patrimony but possibly may have come to her instead from the
>> property of Herman's mother. This lady was the daughter of Herman of
>> Verdun, margrave of Ename, from the dynasty of Ardenne. His agnatic
>
> In many places on french sites, Richildes mother is called Matilda of
> Verdun! I see that Pope Leo is occasionally 'given' a sister called
> Matilda who was the wife of Richwin count of Scarponne 1019-43.

The attribution of Matilda of Verdun as mother (rather than correctly
mother-in-law) of Richilde comes from clinging onto a remnant of the
mistake by Gilles d'Orval and Aubry of Troisfontaines as above. The
putative sister of Leo IX who married a count in the Charpeigne (of
Scarpone or Montbéliard/Mömpelgard) was named Hildegard not Mathilde,
and this alleged relationship was one of several refuted by Frank Legl
as discussed upthread. The supposed connection as either 'neptis' or
'soror' of Richilde to Leo should not be taken in isolation from the
other legendary sisters and nieces ascribed to the pope as a result of
imaginative interpretation of his visits to them, which may be have been
due to political support for the emperor rather than selective family
reunions.

On 07-Apr-23 9:01 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 21-Mar-23 12:26 PM, mike davis wrote:

>> In many places on french sites, Richildes mother is called Matilda of
>> Verdun! I see that Pope Leo is occasionally 'given' a sister called
>> Matilda who was the wife of Richwin count of Scarponne 1019-43.
>
> The attribution of Matilda of Verdun as mother (rather than correctly
> mother-in-law) of Richilde comes from clinging onto a remnant of the
> mistake by Gilles d'Orval and Aubry of Troisfontaines as above. The
> putative sister of Leo IX who married a count in the Charpeigne (of
> Scarpone or Montbéliard/Mömpelgard) was named Hildegard not Mathilde,
> and this alleged relationship was one of several refuted by Frank Legl
> as discussed upthread. The supposed connection as either 'neptis' or
> 'soror' of Richilde to Leo should not be taken in isolation from the
> other legendary sisters and nieces ascribed to the pope as a result of
> imaginative interpretation of his visits to them, which may be have been
> due to political support for the emperor rather than selective family
> reunions.

Apologies for my lapse of memory - Frank Legl deduced that Hildegard the
wife of a count in the Charpeigne was probably a sister of Leo (though
this is not directly evidenced), and she was not among the alleged
relatives visited by the pope.

Peter Stewart

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