need some help with this record, the second part involving Beauvais in particular. Here is the record:

9 octobre 1536. - Louis Martinet et Person Martinet, notaires.

:"Contrat de mariage entre M^re Adrien de Chartogne, fils de noble homme Laurent de Chartogne, ecuyer, sieur de la Folie les Bretoncourt et d'Ecordal en partie, assiste de Jean de Vaulx, ecuyer, sieur d'Ecordal en partie, gruyer de Rethelois, Christophe de Vaulx, ecuyer, sieur en partie du meme lieu, Etienne de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur de Chevrieres, Jean de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur de Resson en partie, Nicolas de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur des Petites Ayvelles en partie, tous parents et amis du futur epoux, d'une part.

:Et Marie de Beauvais, fille de dam^lle Alix de Chappy, veuve de Didier de Beauvais, assistee se venerable et religieuse personne dom Christophe de Beauvais, seigneur de Beauvais, frere de la future epouse, et de Jean de Beauvais, capitaine de Buzancy, prevot de Chepy, et Francois de Pouilly, ecuyer, ses oncles, d'autre part."

I am trying to solve the relationship in the second part, and I see this-
Didier de Beauvais, Seigneur d'Autruche, m. Alix de Chappy.
*Christophe de Beauvais, son.
*Marie de Beauvais, daughter.
*Jean de Beauvais, son.

So who is Francois de Pouilly? The phrase "ses oncles" is after his name, so he would have had to been either a brother of Didier de Beauvais or a brother of Alix de Chappy, but where does the de Pouilly come from? I have become frustrated by this reference.

As an aside, the de Pouilly must be from Pouilly-sur-Meuse near Autruche.

On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 1:18:50 PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> need some help with this record, the second part involving Beauvais in particular. Here is the record:

> :Et Marie de Beauvais, fille de dam^lle Alix de Chappy, veuve de Didier de Beauvais, assistee se venerable et religieuse personne dom Christophe de Beauvais, seigneur de Beauvais, frere de la future epouse, et de Jean de Beauvais, capitaine de Buzancy, prevot de Chepy, et Francois de Pouilly, ecuyer, ses oncles, d'autre part."

> So who is Francois de Pouilly? The phrase "ses oncles" is after his name, so he would have had to been either a brother of Didier de Beauvais or a brother of Alix de Chappy, but where does the de Pouilly come from? I have become frustrated by this reference.
>

Two additional possibilities to consider: half-uncle (Francois was half-brother of Alix or Didier) or great-uncle (Francois was maternal uncle of Alix or Didier).

taf

On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 8:36:05 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 1:18:50 PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > need some help with this record, the second part involving Beauvais in particular. Here is the record:
> > :Et Marie de Beauvais, fille de dam^lle Alix de Chappy, veuve de Didier de Beauvais, assistee se venerable et religieuse personne dom Christophe de Beauvais, seigneur de Beauvais, frere de la future epouse, et de Jean de Beauvais, capitaine de Buzancy, prevot de Chepy, et Francois de Pouilly, ecuyer, ses oncles, d'autre part."
> > So who is Francois de Pouilly? The phrase "ses oncles" is after his name, so he would have had to been either a brother of Didier de Beauvais or a brother of Alix de Chappy, but where does the de Pouilly come from? I have become frustrated by this reference.
> >
> Two additional possibilities to consider: half-uncle (Francois was half-brother of Alix or Didier) or great-uncle (Francois was maternal uncle of Alix or Didier).
>
> taf

Thank you! I am trying to chip at this gigantic Beauvais brick wall and I really need additional eyes on it to get some feedback. I really appreciate it and hopefully more eyes can help.

Darrell

On 10-Apr-23 6:18 AM, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> need some help with this record, the second part involving Beauvais in particular. Here is the record:
>
> 9 octobre 1536. - Louis Martinet et Person Martinet, notaires.
>
> :"Contrat de mariage entre M^re Adrien de Chartogne, fils de noble homme Laurent de Chartogne, ecuyer, sieur de la Folie les Bretoncourt et d'Ecordal en partie, assiste de Jean de Vaulx, ecuyer, sieur d'Ecordal en partie, gruyer de Rethelois, Christophe de Vaulx, ecuyer, sieur en partie du meme lieu, Etienne de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur de Chevrieres, Jean de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur de Resson en partie, Nicolas de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur des Petites Ayvelles en partie, tous parents et amis du futur epoux, d'une part.
>
> :Et Marie de Beauvais, fille de dam^lle Alix de Chappy, veuve de Didier de Beauvais, assistee se venerable et religieuse personne dom Christophe de Beauvais, seigneur de Beauvais, frere de la future epouse, et de Jean de Beauvais, capitaine de Buzancy, prevot de Chepy, et Francois de Pouilly, ecuyer, ses oncles, d'autre part."
>
>
> I am trying to solve the relationship in the second part, and I see this-
> Didier de Beauvais, Seigneur d'Autruche, m. Alix de Chappy.
> *Christophe de Beauvais, son.
> *Marie de Beauvais, daughter.
> *Jean de Beauvais, son.
>
> So who is Francois de Pouilly? The phrase "ses oncles" is after his name, so he would have had to been either a brother of Didier de Beauvais or a brother of Alix de Chappy, but where does the de Pouilly come from? I have become frustrated by this reference.
>
> As an aside, the de Pouilly must be from Pouilly-sur-Meuse near Autruche.

François de Pouilly married Marie de Chappy, probably a sister of Alix,
according to this article on the Beauvais family:
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=ZTdNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA2

Peter Stewart

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 10:47:20 PM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 10-Apr-23 6:18 AM, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > need some help with this record, the second part involving Beauvais in particular. Here is the record:
> >
> > 9 octobre 1536. - Louis Martinet et Person Martinet, notaires.
> >
> > :"Contrat de mariage entre M^re Adrien de Chartogne, fils de noble homme Laurent de Chartogne, ecuyer, sieur de la Folie les Bretoncourt et d'Ecordal en partie, assiste de Jean de Vaulx, ecuyer, sieur d'Ecordal en partie, gruyer de Rethelois, Christophe de Vaulx, ecuyer, sieur en partie du meme lieu, Etienne de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur de Chevrieres, Jean de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur de Resson en partie, Nicolas de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur des Petites Ayvelles en partie, tous parents et amis du futur epoux, d'une part.
> >
> > :Et Marie de Beauvais, fille de dam^lle Alix de Chappy, veuve de Didier de Beauvais, assistee se venerable et religieuse personne dom Christophe de Beauvais, seigneur de Beauvais, frere de la future epouse, et de Jean de Beauvais, capitaine de Buzancy, prevot de Chepy, et Francois de Pouilly, ecuyer, ses oncles, d'autre part."
> >
> >
> > I am trying to solve the relationship in the second part, and I see this-
> > Didier de Beauvais, Seigneur d'Autruche, m. Alix de Chappy.
> > *Christophe de Beauvais, son.
> > *Marie de Beauvais, daughter.
> > *Jean de Beauvais, son.
> >
> > So who is Francois de Pouilly? The phrase "ses oncles" is after his name, so he would have had to been either a brother of Didier de Beauvais or a brother of Alix de Chappy, but where does the de Pouilly come from? I have become frustrated by this reference.
> >
> > As an aside, the de Pouilly must be from Pouilly-sur-Meuse near Autruche.
> François de Pouilly married Marie de Chappy, probably a sister of Alix,
> according to this article on the Beauvais family:
> https://books.google.com.au/books?id=ZTdNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA2
>
> Peter Stewart
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com

That's exactly what I needed... thank you, Peter!

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 9:20:12 PM UTC+9, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 10:47:20 PM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > On 10-Apr-23 6:18 AM, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > > need some help with this record, the second part involving Beauvais in particular. Here is the record:
> > >
> > > 9 octobre 1536. - Louis Martinet et Person Martinet, notaires.
> > >
> > > :"Contrat de mariage entre M^re Adrien de Chartogne, fils de noble homme Laurent de Chartogne, ecuyer, sieur de la Folie les Bretoncourt et d'Ecordal en partie, assiste de Jean de Vaulx, ecuyer, sieur d'Ecordal en partie, gruyer de Rethelois, Christophe de Vaulx, ecuyer, sieur en partie du meme lieu, Etienne de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur de Chevrieres, Jean de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur de Resson en partie, Nicolas de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur des Petites Ayvelles en partie, tous parents et amis du futur epoux, d'une part.
> > >
> > > :Et Marie de Beauvais, fille de dam^lle Alix de Chappy, veuve de Didier de Beauvais, assistee se venerable et religieuse personne dom Christophe de Beauvais, seigneur de Beauvais, frere de la future epouse, et de Jean de Beauvais, capitaine de Buzancy, prevot de Chepy, et Francois de Pouilly, ecuyer, ses oncles, d'autre part."
> > >
> > >
> > > I am trying to solve the relationship in the second part, and I see this-
> > > Didier de Beauvais, Seigneur d'Autruche, m. Alix de Chappy.
> > > *Christophe de Beauvais, son.
> > > *Marie de Beauvais, daughter.
> > > *Jean de Beauvais, son.
> > >
> > > So who is Francois de Pouilly? The phrase "ses oncles" is after his name, so he would have had to been either a brother of Didier de Beauvais or a brother of Alix de Chappy, but where does the de Pouilly come from? I have become frustrated by this reference.
> > >
> > > As an aside, the de Pouilly must be from Pouilly-sur-Meuse near Autruche.
> > François de Pouilly married Marie de Chappy, probably a sister of Alix,
> > according to this article on the Beauvais family:
> > https://books.google.com.au/books?id=ZTdNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA2
> >
> > Peter Stewart
> >
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> > www.avg.com
> That's exactly what I needed... thank you, Peter!

Just a small addition, a quick, somewhat rough, translation of the French into English. Whether it adds anything or not, I don't know. But, here it is:

"Contract of marriage between Mr. Adrien de Chartogne, son of the noble gentleman Laurent de Chartogne, esquire, lord of la Folie les Bretoncourt and of Ecordal in part, as assisted by Jean de Vaulx, esquire, lord of Ecordal in part, Gruyer de Rethelois, Christophe de Vaulx, esquire, lord in the same location, Etienne de Saint-Quentin, esquire, lord of Chevrieres, Jean de Saint-Quentin, esquire, lord of Resson, Nicolas de Saint-Quentin, esquire, lord of the Petites Ayvelles, all being relatives and friends of the man to be married, on the one hand.

:And Marie de Beauvais, daughter of mistress Alix de Chappy, widow of Didier de Beauvais, as assisted by the venerable et religieus person the lord Christophe de Beauvais, lord of Beauvais, brother of the woman to be married, and by Jean de Beauvais, capitain of Buzancy, prevost of Chepy, et Francois de Pouilly, squire, her uncles, on the other hand."

Hikaru

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 7:58:25 AM UTC-4, Hikaru Kitabayashi wrote:
> On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 9:20:12 PM UTC+9, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 10:47:20 PM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > > On 10-Apr-23 6:18 AM, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > > > need some help with this record, the second part involving Beauvais in particular. Here is the record:
> > > >
> > > > 9 octobre 1536. - Louis Martinet et Person Martinet, notaires.
> > > >
> > > > :"Contrat de mariage entre M^re Adrien de Chartogne, fils de noble homme Laurent de Chartogne, ecuyer, sieur de la Folie les Bretoncourt et d'Ecordal en partie, assiste de Jean de Vaulx, ecuyer, sieur d'Ecordal en partie, gruyer de Rethelois, Christophe de Vaulx, ecuyer, sieur en partie du meme lieu, Etienne de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur de Chevrieres, Jean de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur de Resson en partie, Nicolas de Saint-Quentin, ecuyer, seigneur des Petites Ayvelles en partie, tous parents et amis du futur epoux, d'une part.
> > > >
> > > > :Et Marie de Beauvais, fille de dam^lle Alix de Chappy, veuve de Didier de Beauvais, assistee se venerable et religieuse personne dom Christophe de Beauvais, seigneur de Beauvais, frere de la future epouse, et de Jean de Beauvais, capitaine de Buzancy, prevot de Chepy, et Francois de Pouilly, ecuyer, ses oncles, d'autre part."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I am trying to solve the relationship in the second part, and I see this-
> > > > Didier de Beauvais, Seigneur d'Autruche, m. Alix de Chappy.
> > > > *Christophe de Beauvais, son.
> > > > *Marie de Beauvais, daughter.
> > > > *Jean de Beauvais, son.
> > > >
> > > > So who is Francois de Pouilly? The phrase "ses oncles" is after his name, so he would have had to been either a brother of Didier de Beauvais or a brother of Alix de Chappy, but where does the de Pouilly come from? I have become frustrated by this reference.
> > > >
> > > > As an aside, the de Pouilly must be from Pouilly-sur-Meuse near Autruche.
> > > François de Pouilly married Marie de Chappy, probably a sister of Alix,
> > > according to this article on the Beauvais family:
> > > https://books.google.com.au/books?id=ZTdNAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA2
> > >
> > > Peter Stewart
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> > > www.avg.com
> > That's exactly what I needed... thank you, Peter!
> Just a small addition, a quick, somewhat rough, translation of the French into English. Whether it adds anything or not, I don't know. But, here it is:
>
> "Contract of marriage between Mr. Adrien de Chartogne, son of the noble gentleman Laurent de Chartogne, esquire, lord of la Folie les Bretoncourt and of Ecordal in part, as assisted by Jean de Vaulx, esquire, lord of Ecordal in part, Gruyer de Rethelois, Christophe de Vaulx, esquire, lord in the same location, Etienne de Saint-Quentin, esquire, lord of Chevrieres, Jean de Saint-Quentin, esquire, lord of Resson, Nicolas de Saint-Quentin, esquire, lord of the Petites Ayvelles, all being relatives and friends of the man to be married, on the one hand.
>
> :And Marie de Beauvais, daughter of mistress Alix de Chappy, widow of Didier de Beauvais, as assisted by the venerable et religieus person the lord Christophe de Beauvais, lord of Beauvais, brother of the woman to be married, and by Jean de Beauvais, capitain of Buzancy, prevost of Chepy, et Francois de Pouilly, squire, her uncles, on the other hand."
>
> Hikaru

Hikaru,

Thank you for the improved translation of this source. I will add it to my research with appropriate credit. Unfortunately this record is of absolutely no help in my search for Nicole de Beauvais, supposed daughter of François de Beauvais, Sieur d'Autruche and second wife of François de Joyeuse.

Darrell

Would a girl of minor age (16 or younger) be omitted as a witness in a French marriage record like this?

Curious.

On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> Would a girl of minor age (16 or younger) be omitted as a witness in a French marriage record like this?

I am not very familiar with 16th century practice, but have seen a number of abstracts of marriage contracts from Hagenau from the late 17th and 18th century.

First some caveats - 1) they are abstracts I have access to, and I can't be certain how well they reflect what is present in the original records; 2) they are only a small subset, relating to a single town, and hence may reflect very local practice that is not generalizable; 3) the ones I have access to all relate to burgher families, not gentry; and 4) there may be sampling bias issues - the pattern among this selection of documents may not even reflect the overall pattern from the community itself.

That all said, in the earliest ones only adult men appear as witnesses. This changes about 1720 when the bride herself begins to sign as a witness, and about 1740 one begins to see other female relatives. Extrapolating from this pattern, I would not expect a minor female to appear as witness in the 16th century.

taf

On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 9:33:56 AM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> On Friday, April 28, 2023 at 5:13:14 PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > Would a girl of minor age (16 or younger) be omitted as a witness in a French marriage record like this?
> I am not very familiar with 16th century practice, but have seen a number of abstracts of marriage contracts from Hagenau from the late 17th and 18th century.
>
> First some caveats - 1) they are abstracts I have access to, and I can't be certain how well they reflect what is present in the original records; 2) they are only a small subset, relating to a single town, and hence may reflect very local practice that is not generalizable; 3) the ones I have access to all relate to burgher families, not gentry; and 4) there may be sampling bias issues - the pattern among this selection of documents may not even reflect the overall pattern from the community itself.
>
> That all said, in the earliest ones only adult men appear as witnesses. This changes about 1720 when the bride herself begins to sign as a witness, and about 1740 one begins to see other female relatives. Extrapolating from this pattern, I would not expect a minor female to appear as witness in the 16th century.
>
> taf

I'm asking because the omission of Nicole Francoise de Beauvais, daughter of Francois de Beauvais, Seigneur d'Autruche, is a natural one since she was not of age and a girl. This means that there is a distinct possibility Francois is the "N. de Beauvais" named by Pellot and he died ca. 1520.

Darrell