A document, purportedly noted by a Herald in the 1580s, was referenced by him as "Ex Libro Cartaceo script temp Henry VI". I can't fathom out what Cartaceo means. Can anyone assist, please?

Alan Jones

On 17-Apr-23 8:19 PM, Alan Jones wrote:
> A document, purportedly noted by a Herald in the 1580s, was referenced by him as "Ex Libro Cartaceo script temp Henry VI". I can't fathom out what Cartaceo means. Can anyone assist, please?

It means from a paper book.

Peter Stewart

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On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 12:18:04 PM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 17-Apr-23 8:19 PM, Alan Jones wrote:
> > A document, purportedly noted by a Herald in the 1580s, was referenced by him as "Ex Libro Cartaceo script temp Henry VI". I can't fathom out what Cartaceo means. Can anyone assist, please?
> It means from a paper book.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com

Thank you very much Peter. It makes the reference even vaguer than I thought it would be!

Alan Jones

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 4:25:54 AM UTC-7, Alan Jones wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 12:18:04 PM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > On 17-Apr-23 8:19 PM, Alan Jones wrote:
> > > A document, purportedly noted by a Herald in the 1580s, was referenced by him as "Ex Libro Cartaceo script temp Henry VI". I can't fathom out what Cartaceo means. Can anyone assist, please?
> > It means from a paper book.
> >
> > Peter Stewart
> >
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> > www.avg.com
> Thank you very much Peter. It makes the reference even vaguer than I thought it would be!
>
> Alan Jones

Perhaps you could give the full citation to where you saw this

On 17-Apr-23 9:25 PM, Alan Jones wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 12:18:04 PM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> On 17-Apr-23 8:19 PM, Alan Jones wrote:
>>> A document, purportedly noted by a Herald in the 1580s, was referenced by him as "Ex Libro Cartaceo script temp Henry VI". I can't fathom out what Cartaceo means. Can anyone assist, please?
>> It means from a paper book.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>>
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>> www.avg.com
>
> Thank you very much Peter. It makes the reference even vaguer than I thought it would be!

I don't know the history of paper usage in England, but my hunch is that
very few books written on it would have been produced in the reign of
Henry VI - hence the citation to this as a rarity by a herald over 100
years later.

Peter Stewart

On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 11:19:23 UTC+1, Alan Jones wrote:
> "Ex Libro Cartaceo script temp Henry VI".

This is a standard type of comment by a herald when copying an 'ancient' document. For example, a copy made by Robert Glover, Somerset Herald 1570-88, of 'Glover's Roll' is headed:
"The copie of an old rolle of parchemin wherein these Armes followenge were blazoned verbatim as followeth"
And his heading for a copy of the 'Heralds' Roll' is:
"Arma que sequuntur ex rotulo antiquo fideliter exemplificantur"

Similarly, Nicholas Charles, Lancaster Herald 1609-13, when copying 'Walford's Roll' headed it:
"The coppy of a very antient Rolle, made as may bee supposed, in the tyme of K. H. 3"

Ralph Brooke, York Herald 1593-1625, copied the 'Dering Roll' and headed it:
"A copie of an owldde Roule in ye kepinge of Mr. Fitz Williams of Sprotbrugh 1563 of Noblemens Armes and Knyghtes as weare wt K. R. I. at ye asiege of Acon"
This acts as a warning that such comments can be mistaken. The Dering Roll was based on a castle-guard roll for the Constable of Dover and had no connection with any crusade.

These headings, and many more, can be found in A. R. Wagner, Aspilogia I, A Catalogue of English Mediaeval Rolls of Arms, Oxford: Society of Antiquaries, 1950.

Peter Howarth

On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 9:17:55 AM UTC+1, Peter Howarth wrote:
> On Monday, 17 April 2023 at 11:19:23 UTC+1, Alan Jones wrote:
> > "Ex Libro Cartaceo script temp Henry VI".
> This is a standard type of comment by a herald when copying an 'ancient' document. For example, a copy made by Robert Glover, Somerset Herald 1570-88, of 'Glover's Roll' is headed:
> "The copie of an old rolle of parchemin wherein these Armes followenge were blazoned verbatim as followeth"
> And his heading for a copy of the 'Heralds' Roll' is:
> "Arma que sequuntur ex rotulo antiquo fideliter exemplificantur"
>
> Similarly, Nicholas Charles, Lancaster Herald 1609-13, when copying 'Walford's Roll' headed it:
> "The coppy of a very antient Rolle, made as may bee supposed, in the tyme of K. H. 3"
>
> Ralph Brooke, York Herald 1593-1625, copied the 'Dering Roll' and headed it:
> "A copie of an owldde Roule in ye kepinge of Mr. Fitz Williams of Sprotbrugh 1563 of Noblemens Armes and Knyghtes as weare wt K. R. I. at ye asiege of Acon"
> This acts as a warning that such comments can be mistaken. The Dering Roll was based on a castle-guard roll for the Constable of Dover and had no connection with any crusade.
>
> These headings, and many more, can be found in A. R. Wagner, Aspilogia I, A Catalogue of English Mediaeval Rolls of Arms, Oxford: Society of Antiquaries, 1950.
>
> Peter Howarth

Thank you very much, Peter

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 10:48:27 PM UTC+1, Will Johnson wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 4:25:54 AM UTC-7, Alan Jones wrote:
> > On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 12:18:04 PM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > > On 17-Apr-23 8:19 PM, Alan Jones wrote:
> > > > A document, purportedly noted by a Herald in the 1580s, was referenced by him as "Ex Libro Cartaceo script temp Henry VI". I can't fathom out what Cartaceo means. Can anyone assist, please?
> > > It means from a paper book.
> > >
> > > Peter Stewart
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> > > www.avg.com
> > Thank you very much Peter. It makes the reference even vaguer than I thought it would be!
> >
> > Alan Jones
> Perhaps you could give the full citation to where you saw this

Will Johnson asked for some more information.

In 1877 a John Brodrick Dale commissioned Stephen Tucker, a herald in the College of Arms, to copy the contents of a collection held by the College which related to a Dale family and which had been compiled by Robert Dale (from the same family), who was Richmond Herald between 1721 and 1722. Tucker’s copy of the collection was eventually deposited with the Society of Genealogists in London. Included in that collection is a transcript made by Robert Dale of an earlier transcript made in 1582 by another herald, Robert Glover (1534-1588), Somerset Herald. That 1582 transcript was Robert Glover's transcript of a statement in an earlier document which he had presumably seen. Robert Dale's transcript of the Glover transcript was:

"Otho D. 4 125 a latter Numbers

The Earle of Hereford that wedded the sister of Richard Erle [sic] of Arundell by whom he had two daughters & heires had also a brother and that brother had a daughter that was wedded to Sir Thomas Dale and that Sir Thomas Dale had issue Thomas Dale and Dame Blaunche and Dame Blaunche had issue Thomas Venables.

Ex Libro Cartaceo script temp Henry VI

Transcript by Robt Glover, Somerset, anno 1582."

If the contents of this are of interest to anyone, the persons referred to can be identified:

The Earl of Hereford was Humphrey de Bohun, earl of Northampton, Hereford, and Essex (born 1342, died 1372/3), who married, in 1359, Joan de Arundel, a sister of Richard de Arundel, Earl of Arundel and Surrey (1347-1397). Humphrey and Joan had two daughters, who were the coheirs, Eleanor and Mary. The wife of Sir Thomas Dale was not named but there is evidence that her name was Sybil or Isabel.

Sir Thomas Dale was the man described here:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433000977011&view=1up&seq=442&q1=Dale

and he was one of a number of knights who perished when a number of ships under the command of Sir John Arundel were wrecked in a storm off off the coast of Ireland in December 1379.

https://archive.org/details/earlynavalhisto01soutgoog/page/n296/mode/2up (pages 291-294)

But, the de Bohun pedigrees do not mention Sybil (or Isabel), or any such brother of Humphrey de Bohun (he is recorded as having only one full sibling, his sister Elizabeth, and a half-brother (on his mother’s side) Roger de Mortimer (1328-1359), Earl of March). So, either the record seen in 1582 was wrong or perhaps Sibyl’s father was illegitimate and unrecorded.

The reference "Otho D. 4 125 a latter numbers" (more correctly D (iv)) relates to folios 125 plus, manuscripts in the "Cotton Library", which was assembled by Sir Robert Bruce Cotton (1571-1631) The original document was unidentified beyond “Ex Libro Cartaceo script temp Henry VI”. In a Catalogue of the Cotton Library, Otho D (iv) was described as "Collections of Robert Glover". So it seems that it was the 1582 transcript by Robert Glover, rather than the original document, which was in the library. Unfortunately Otho D (iv) folios 120-127 were among the documents which were lost or destroyed in a fire in the library in 1731.

Alan Jones