This week, I came across this remark on the Henry II Project page for Heilwig, wife of Welf and mother of Judith, second wife of Louis I and mother of Charles the Bald, https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/heilw000.htm..
We know that Hathuwy, granddaughter of Egbert and Saint, Ida, and Charles the Bald were related in the third and fourth degree. Considering that both Heilwig and Egbert were Saxons and that Heilwig's daughters Judith and Hemma had ties to the Monasteries of Corvey and Hereford, it's been speculated that the relationship was through them. Some would make Heilwig either niece or aunt of Egbert depending on which side had the fourth degree, others would ignore the degrees and make them siblings and others would leave the relationship vague.
What do you think of this? I find it plausible, certainly far more plausible than the theory that Saint Ida was daughter of Carloman, brother of Charlemagne.

On 24-Apr-23 8:48 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> This week, I came across this remark on the Henry II Project page for Heilwig, wife of Welf and mother of Judith, second wife of Louis I and mother of Charles the Bald, https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/heilw000.htm.
> We know that Hathuwy, granddaughter of Egbert and Saint, Ida, and Charles the Bald were related in the third and fourth degree. Considering that both Heilwig and Egbert were Saxons and that Heilwig's daughters Judith and Hemma had ties to the Monasteries of Corvey and Hereford, it's been speculated that the relationship was through them. Some would make Heilwig either niece or aunt of Egbert depending on which side had the fourth degree, others would ignore the degrees and make them siblings and others would leave the relationship vague.
> What do you think of this? I find it plausible, certainly far more plausible than the theory that Saint Ida was daughter of Carloman, brother of Charlemagne.

It will be surprising if this raises a broad discussion here, since
there is no longer very much interest shown by the newsgroup in
9th-century questions and anyone who has looked into this one would know
that it can't be definitively answered on the known evidence. Collecting
opinions about genealogical possibilities and historical mysteries is
not usually productive.

In this case - for what vanishingly little it's worth - I think the
supposedly conspicuous promotion of Corvey and Herford (NB not Hereford)
by Judith and her sister Hemma has been exaggerated for the sake of
supporting a tenuous argument. Judith intervened similarly for other
religious houses and persons without links to the Ekbertian/Cobbonid
clan, and neither she nor Hemma can be shown to have favoured St Ida's
foundation of Herzfeld which might be expected if family solidarity had
been their motive.

We also don't know exactly what Thegan may have meant by describing
their parents as belonging to the highest nobility of Bavaria and Saxony
respectively - was he pointing just to political-geographic origin or to
actual ethicity? Both of them may have come from originally Frankish
families for all we can tell. It is worth remembering that Thegan wrote
after Judith had been restored as "augusta" following the rebellion of
her step-sons, and he may have played up the aristocratic antecedents of
Welf and Eigilwi in order to flatter an ascendant family, whether
upstart or otherwise in court circles.

Peter Stewart

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

A terça-feira, 25 de abril de 2023 à(s) 04:48:18 UTC+1, Peter Stewart escreveu:
> On 24-Apr-23 8:48 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> > This week, I came across this remark on the Henry II Project page for Heilwig, wife of Welf and mother of Judith, second wife of Louis I and mother of Charles the Bald, https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/heilw000..htm.
> > We know that Hathuwy, granddaughter of Egbert and Saint, Ida, and Charles the Bald were related in the third and fourth degree. Considering that both Heilwig and Egbert were Saxons and that Heilwig's daughters Judith and Hemma had ties to the Monasteries of Corvey and Hereford, it's been speculated that the relationship was through them. Some would make Heilwig either niece or aunt of Egbert depending on which side had the fourth degree, others would ignore the degrees and make them siblings and others would leave the relationship vague.
> > What do you think of this? I find it plausible, certainly far more plausible than the theory that Saint Ida was daughter of Carloman, brother of Charlemagne.
> It will be surprising if this raises a broad discussion here, since
> there is no longer very much interest shown by the newsgroup in
> 9th-century questions and anyone who has looked into this one would know
> that it can't be definitively answered on the known evidence. Collecting
> opinions about genealogical possibilities and historical mysteries is
> not usually productive.
>
> In this case - for what vanishingly little it's worth - I think the
> supposedly conspicuous promotion of Corvey and Herford (NB not Hereford)
> by Judith and her sister Hemma has been exaggerated for the sake of
> supporting a tenuous argument. Judith intervened similarly for other
> religious houses and persons without links to the Ekbertian/Cobbonid
> clan, and neither she nor Hemma can be shown to have favoured St Ida's
> foundation of Herzfeld which might be expected if family solidarity had
> been their motive.
>
> We also don't know exactly what Thegan may have meant by describing
> their parents as belonging to the highest nobility of Bavaria and Saxony
> respectively - was he pointing just to political-geographic origin or to
> actual ethicity? Both of them may have come from originally Frankish
> families for all we can tell. It is worth remembering that Thegan wrote
> after Judith had been restored as "augusta" following the rebellion of
> her step-sons, and he may have played up the aristocratic antecedents of
> Welf and Eigilwi in order to flatter an ascendant family, whether
> upstart or otherwise in court circles.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com
Sorry for the late reply, but thanks for the reply, Peter, I didn't check the newsgroup for some days. I
I am interested in simply collecting opinions.
Anyways, why do you say there is no longer much interest by the newsgroup in 9th century questions?

On 01-May-23 6:29 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A terça-feira, 25 de abril de 2023 à(s) 04:48:18 UTC+1, Peter Stewart escreveu:
>> On 24-Apr-23 8:48 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>>> This week, I came across this remark on the Henry II Project page for Heilwig, wife of Welf and mother of Judith, second wife of Louis I and mother of Charles the Bald, https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/heilw000.htm.
>>> We know that Hathuwy, granddaughter of Egbert and Saint, Ida, and Charles the Bald were related in the third and fourth degree. Considering that both Heilwig and Egbert were Saxons and that Heilwig's daughters Judith and Hemma had ties to the Monasteries of Corvey and Hereford, it's been speculated that the relationship was through them. Some would make Heilwig either niece or aunt of Egbert depending on which side had the fourth degree, others would ignore the degrees and make them siblings and others would leave the relationship vague.
>>> What do you think of this? I find it plausible, certainly far more plausible than the theory that Saint Ida was daughter of Carloman, brother of Charlemagne.
>> It will be surprising if this raises a broad discussion here, since
>> there is no longer very much interest shown by the newsgroup in
>> 9th-century questions and anyone who has looked into this one would know
>> that it can't be definitively answered on the known evidence. Collecting
>> opinions about genealogical possibilities and historical mysteries is
>> not usually productive.
>>
>> In this case - for what vanishingly little it's worth - I think the
>> supposedly conspicuous promotion of Corvey and Herford (NB not Hereford)
>> by Judith and her sister Hemma has been exaggerated for the sake of
>> supporting a tenuous argument. Judith intervened similarly for other
>> religious houses and persons without links to the Ekbertian/Cobbonid
>> clan, and neither she nor Hemma can be shown to have favoured St Ida's
>> foundation of Herzfeld which might be expected if family solidarity had
>> been their motive.
>>
>> We also don't know exactly what Thegan may have meant by describing
>> their parents as belonging to the highest nobility of Bavaria and Saxony
>> respectively - was he pointing just to political-geographic origin or to
>> actual ethicity? Both of them may have come from originally Frankish
>> families for all we can tell. It is worth remembering that Thegan wrote
>> after Judith had been restored as "augusta" following the rebellion of
>> her step-sons, and he may have played up the aristocratic antecedents of
>> Welf and Eigilwi in order to flatter an ascendant family, whether
>> upstart or otherwise in court circles.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>> www.avg.com
> Sorry for the late reply, but thanks for the reply, Peter, I didn't check the newsgroup for some days. I
> I am interested in simply collecting opinions.
> Anyways, why do you say there is no longer much interest by the newsgroup in 9th century questions?

Because there are no longer many postings about them, either inquiring
on separate topics or following up on comments when rare threads like
this one start.

Peter Stewart

On 01-May-23 9:22 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 01-May-23 6:29 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>> A terça-feira, 25 de abril de 2023 à(s) 04:48:18 UTC+1, Peter Stewart
>> escreveu:
>>> On 24-Apr-23 8:48 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>>>> This week, I came across this remark on the Henry II Project page
>>>> for Heilwig, wife of Welf and mother of Judith, second wife of Louis
>>>> I and mother of Charles the Bald,
>>>> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/heilw000.htm.
>>>> We know that Hathuwy, granddaughter of Egbert and Saint, Ida, and
>>>> Charles the Bald were related in the third and fourth degree.
>>>> Considering that both Heilwig and Egbert were Saxons and that
>>>> Heilwig's daughters Judith and Hemma had ties to the Monasteries of
>>>> Corvey and Hereford, it's been speculated that the relationship was
>>>> through them. Some would make Heilwig either niece or aunt of Egbert
>>>> depending on which side had the fourth degree, others would ignore
>>>> the degrees and make them siblings and others would leave the
>>>> relationship vague.
>>>> What do you think of this? I find it plausible, certainly far more
>>>> plausible than the theory that Saint Ida was daughter of Carloman,
>>>> brother of Charlemagne.
>>> It will be surprising if this raises a broad discussion here, since
>>> there is no longer very much interest shown by the newsgroup in
>>> 9th-century questions and anyone who has looked into this one would know
>>> that it can't be definitively answered on the known evidence. Collecting
>>> opinions about genealogical possibilities and historical mysteries is
>>> not usually productive.
>>>
>>> In this case - for what vanishingly little it's worth - I think the
>>> supposedly conspicuous promotion of Corvey and Herford (NB not Hereford)
>>> by Judith and her sister Hemma has been exaggerated for the sake of
>>> supporting a tenuous argument. Judith intervened similarly for other
>>> religious houses and persons without links to the Ekbertian/Cobbonid
>>> clan, and neither she nor Hemma can be shown to have favoured St Ida's
>>> foundation of Herzfeld which might be expected if family solidarity had
>>> been their motive.
>>>
>>> We also don't know exactly what Thegan may have meant by describing
>>> their parents as belonging to the highest nobility of Bavaria and Saxony
>>> respectively - was he pointing just to political-geographic origin or to
>>> actual ethicity? Both of them may have come from originally Frankish
>>> families for all we can tell. It is worth remembering that Thegan wrote
>>> after Judith had been restored as "augusta" following the rebellion of
>>> her step-sons, and he may have played up the aristocratic antecedents of
>>> Welf and Eigilwi in order to flatter an ascendant family, whether
>>> upstart or otherwise in court circles.
>>>
>>> Peter Stewart
>>>
>>> --
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>>> www.avg.com
>> Sorry for the late reply, but thanks for the reply, Peter, I didn't
>> check the newsgroup for some days. I
>> I am interested in simply collecting opinions.
>> Anyways, why do you say there is no longer much interest by the
>> newsgroup in 9th century questions?
>
> Because there are no longer many postings about them, either inquiring
> on separate topics or following up on comments when rare threads like
> this one start.

Also years ago - before you joined the newsgroup - posters including me
habitually gave detailed source citations in postings about such topics,
but since I stopped doing so I have hardly ever been asked to provide
these. Readers who are content to be spoon-fed with unproven assertions
are generally not very much interested in the subject.

Peter Stewart

On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 1:37:27 AM UTC+2, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 01-May-23 9:22 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > On 01-May-23 6:29 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> >> A terça-feira, 25 de abril de 2023 à(s) 04:48:18 UTC+1, Peter Stewart
> >> escreveu:
> >>> On 24-Apr-23 8:48 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> >>>> This week, I came across this remark on the Henry II Project page
> >>>> for Heilwig, wife of Welf and mother of Judith, second wife of Louis
> >>>> I and mother of Charles the Bald,
> >>>> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/heilw000.htm.
> >>>> We know that Hathuwy, granddaughter of Egbert and Saint, Ida, and
> >>>> Charles the Bald were related in the third and fourth degree.
> >>>> Considering that both Heilwig and Egbert were Saxons and that
> >>>> Heilwig's daughters Judith and Hemma had ties to the Monasteries of
> >>>> Corvey and Hereford, it's been speculated that the relationship was
> >>>> through them. Some would make Heilwig either niece or aunt of Egbert
> >>>> depending on which side had the fourth degree, others would ignore
> >>>> the degrees and make them siblings and others would leave the
> >>>> relationship vague.
> >>>> What do you think of this? I find it plausible, certainly far more
> >>>> plausible than the theory that Saint Ida was daughter of Carloman,
> >>>> brother of Charlemagne.
> >>> It will be surprising if this raises a broad discussion here, since
> >>> there is no longer very much interest shown by the newsgroup in
> >>> 9th-century questions and anyone who has looked into this one would know
> >>> that it can't be definitively answered on the known evidence. Collecting
> >>> opinions about genealogical possibilities and historical mysteries is
> >>> not usually productive.
> >>>
> >>> In this case - for what vanishingly little it's worth - I think the
> >>> supposedly conspicuous promotion of Corvey and Herford (NB not Hereford)
> >>> by Judith and her sister Hemma has been exaggerated for the sake of
> >>> supporting a tenuous argument. Judith intervened similarly for other
> >>> religious houses and persons without links to the Ekbertian/Cobbonid
> >>> clan, and neither she nor Hemma can be shown to have favoured St Ida's
> >>> foundation of Herzfeld which might be expected if family solidarity had
> >>> been their motive.
> >>>
> >>> We also don't know exactly what Thegan may have meant by describing
> >>> their parents as belonging to the highest nobility of Bavaria and Saxony
> >>> respectively - was he pointing just to political-geographic origin or to
> >>> actual ethicity? Both of them may have come from originally Frankish
> >>> families for all we can tell. It is worth remembering that Thegan wrote
> >>> after Judith had been restored as "augusta" following the rebellion of
> >>> her step-sons, and he may have played up the aristocratic antecedents of
> >>> Welf and Eigilwi in order to flatter an ascendant family, whether
> >>> upstart or otherwise in court circles.
> >>>
> >>> Peter Stewart
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> >>> www.avg.com
> >> Sorry for the late reply, but thanks for the reply, Peter, I didn't
> >> check the newsgroup for some days. I
> >> I am interested in simply collecting opinions.
> >> Anyways, why do you say there is no longer much interest by the
> >> newsgroup in 9th century questions?
> >
> > Because there are no longer many postings about them, either inquiring
> > on separate topics or following up on comments when rare threads like
> > this one start.
> Also years ago - before you joined the newsgroup - posters including me
> habitually gave detailed source citations in postings about such topics,
> but since I stopped doing so I have hardly ever been asked to provide
> these. Readers who are content to be spoon-fed with unproven assertions
> are generally not very much interested in the subject.
>
> Peter Stewart

Hi Peter, I don't disagree about the general type of problem, but I would point out that this forum often works slowly.
I am sure I am not the only one who often misses posts at first and then finds them months or even years later.

On 03-May-23 7:46 AM, lancast...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 1:37:27 AM UTC+2, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> On 01-May-23 9:22 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>> On 01-May-23 6:29 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>>>> A terça-feira, 25 de abril de 2023 à(s) 04:48:18 UTC+1, Peter Stewart
>>>> escreveu:
>>>>> On 24-Apr-23 8:48 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
>>>>>> This week, I came across this remark on the Henry II Project page
>>>>>> for Heilwig, wife of Welf and mother of Judith, second wife of Louis
>>>>>> I and mother of Charles the Bald,
>>>>>> https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/data/heilw000.htm.
>>>>>> We know that Hathuwy, granddaughter of Egbert and Saint, Ida, and
>>>>>> Charles the Bald were related in the third and fourth degree.
>>>>>> Considering that both Heilwig and Egbert were Saxons and that
>>>>>> Heilwig's daughters Judith and Hemma had ties to the Monasteries of
>>>>>> Corvey and Hereford, it's been speculated that the relationship was
>>>>>> through them. Some would make Heilwig either niece or aunt of Egbert
>>>>>> depending on which side had the fourth degree, others would ignore
>>>>>> the degrees and make them siblings and others would leave the
>>>>>> relationship vague.
>>>>>> What do you think of this? I find it plausible, certainly far more
>>>>>> plausible than the theory that Saint Ida was daughter of Carloman,
>>>>>> brother of Charlemagne.
>>>>> It will be surprising if this raises a broad discussion here, since
>>>>> there is no longer very much interest shown by the newsgroup in
>>>>> 9th-century questions and anyone who has looked into this one would know
>>>>> that it can't be definitively answered on the known evidence. Collecting
>>>>> opinions about genealogical possibilities and historical mysteries is
>>>>> not usually productive.
>>>>>
>>>>> In this case - for what vanishingly little it's worth - I think the
>>>>> supposedly conspicuous promotion of Corvey and Herford (NB not Hereford)
>>>>> by Judith and her sister Hemma has been exaggerated for the sake of
>>>>> supporting a tenuous argument. Judith intervened similarly for other
>>>>> religious houses and persons without links to the Ekbertian/Cobbonid
>>>>> clan, and neither she nor Hemma can be shown to have favoured St Ida's
>>>>> foundation of Herzfeld which might be expected if family solidarity had
>>>>> been their motive.
>>>>>
>>>>> We also don't know exactly what Thegan may have meant by describing
>>>>> their parents as belonging to the highest nobility of Bavaria and Saxony
>>>>> respectively - was he pointing just to political-geographic origin or to
>>>>> actual ethicity? Both of them may have come from originally Frankish
>>>>> families for all we can tell. It is worth remembering that Thegan wrote
>>>>> after Judith had been restored as "augusta" following the rebellion of
>>>>> her step-sons, and he may have played up the aristocratic antecedents of
>>>>> Welf and Eigilwi in order to flatter an ascendant family, whether
>>>>> upstart or otherwise in court circles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter Stewart
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
>>>>> www.avg.com
>>>> Sorry for the late reply, but thanks for the reply, Peter, I didn't
>>>> check the newsgroup for some days. I
>>>> I am interested in simply collecting opinions.
>>>> Anyways, why do you say there is no longer much interest by the
>>>> newsgroup in 9th century questions?
>>>
>>> Because there are no longer many postings about them, either inquiring
>>> on separate topics or following up on comments when rare threads like
>>> this one start.
>> Also years ago - before you joined the newsgroup - posters including me
>> habitually gave detailed source citations in postings about such topics,
>> but since I stopped doing so I have hardly ever been asked to provide
>> these. Readers who are content to be spoon-fed with unproven assertions
>> are generally not very much interested in the subject.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>
> Hi Peter, I don't disagree about the general type of problem, but I would point out that this forum often works slowly.
> I am sure I am not the only one who often misses posts at first and then finds them months or even years later.

I don't think of it as a problem - no-one is required to share my
particular medieval interests, and I am silently unconcerned on many
topics that are fascinating to others. People sometimes respond long
after a thread has ended, but I don't recall having been asked about
uncited sources from posts in the newsgroup archive. This is not a
complaint, just an observation - I wouldn't take anyone's unsupported
word for anything that mattered to me and so I assume that no-one else
cares very much when questions don't get asked.

Peter Stewart

On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 6:22:40 PM UTC-5, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 01-May-23 6:29 AM, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
.. . .
> > Sorry for the late reply, but thanks for the reply, Peter, I didn't check the newsgroup for some days. I
> > I am interested in simply collecting opinions.
> > Anyways, why do you say there is no longer much interest by the newsgroup in 9th century questions?
> Because there are no longer many postings about them, either inquiring
> on separate topics or following up on comments when rare threads like
> this one start.

This could be partly because of fatigue, and partly because this newsgroup was much more active when it was new to everybody. I know that after the nth time somebody new asked a question about an early medieval question that had been discussed on many occasions before, I generally responded in less detail than before, and sometimes not at all. Also, any new participants to the group who ask about an early medieval question are often going to get an answer that they didn't want to hear.

Stewart Baldwin