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interests / soc.genealogy.medieval / Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?

SubjectAuthor
* Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?Darrell E. Larocque
`* Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?Peter Stewart
 +- Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?Darrell E. Larocque
 `* Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?Darrell E. Larocque
  `- Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?Darrell E. Larocque

1
Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?

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Subject: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?
From: frenchco...@gmail.com (Darrell E. Larocque)
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 by: Darrell E. Larocque - Mon, 24 Apr 2023 17:42 UTC

I have a problem with the Grandpre line with two individuals:

1. EDOUARD [I] de Grandpré, son of JEAN [II] Comte de Grandpré & his [second] wife Catherine de Châtillon (-before 31 Aug 1396). Comte de Grandpré.

a. Son JEAN [III] de Grandpré (-after 15 Sep 1415). Comte de Grandpré.

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/champorret.htm#EdouardGrandpredied1396

I have seen several histories of the Battle of Agincourt which names the "comte de Grand-Pre" as one of the dead, and some name Edouard, Comte de Grandpre as that man, but FMG has him as dead before 31 Aug 1396. If this is true, then Jean should be the dead comte de Grand-Pre noted in the dead. It just makes no sense.

Darrell

Examples:

"Edouard II, comte de Grand-Pré, de la maison de Porcien"

https://books.google.com/books?id=nqWF1DFzhdgC&pg=PA57#v=onepage&q&f=false

"S'ensuivent les noms des seigneurs et gentils hommes qui moururent à ladite bataille de la partie des François. ... Les princes : le duc Antoine de Brabant, frère au duc Jean de Bourgogne ; le duc Edouard de Bar, le duc d'Alençon, le comte de Nevers, frère audit duc de Bourgogne; messire Robert, comte de Marle; le comte de Vaudemont, Jean, frère au duc de Bar; le comte de Blamont ; le comte de Grand-Pré ; le comte de Roussy, le comte de Fauquembergue ; messire Louis de Bourbon, fils au seigneur de Préaux. Autres grands seigneurs"

http://www.blamont.info/textes309.html

"The main reason the lists of French dead are incomplete is that they were simply so numerous. The final toll included three dukes (Alençon, Bar and Brabant), at least eight counts (Blamont, Fauquembergue, Grandpré, Marle, Nevers, Roucy, Vaucourt and Vaudémont) and one viscount (Pulsaye, younger brother of the duke of Bar), which is suggestive."

https://erenow.net/ww/agincourt-henry-v/16.php

Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?

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From: pss...@optusnet.com.au (Peter Stewart)
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Subject: Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2023 08:41:32 +1000
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 by: Peter Stewart - Mon, 24 Apr 2023 22:41 UTC

On 25-Apr-23 3:42 AM, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> I have a problem with the Grandpre line with two individuals:
>
> 1. EDOUARD [I] de Grandpré, son of JEAN [II] Comte de Grandpré & his [second] wife Catherine de Châtillon (-before 31 Aug 1396). Comte de Grandpré.
>
> a. Son JEAN [III] de Grandpré (-after 15 Sep 1415). Comte de Grandpré.
>
> https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/champorret.htm#EdouardGrandpredied1396
>
> I have seen several histories of the Battle of Agincourt which names the "comte de Grand-Pre" as one of the dead, and some name Edouard, Comte de Grandpre as that man, but FMG has him as dead before 31 Aug 1396. If this is true, then Jean should be the dead comte de Grand-Pre noted in the dead. It just makes no sense.
>
> Darrell
>
> Examples:
>
> "Edouard II, comte de Grand-Pré, de la maison de Porcien"
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=nqWF1DFzhdgC&pg=PA57#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
> "S'ensuivent les noms des seigneurs et gentils hommes qui moururent à ladite bataille de la partie des François. ... Les princes : le duc Antoine de Brabant, frère au duc Jean de Bourgogne ; le duc Edouard de Bar, le duc d'Alençon, le comte de Nevers, frère audit duc de Bourgogne; messire Robert, comte de Marle; le comte de Vaudemont, Jean, frère au duc de Bar; le comte de Blamont ; le comte de Grand-Pré ; le comte de Roussy, le comte de Fauquembergue ; messire Louis de Bourbon, fils au seigneur de Préaux. Autres grands seigneurs"
>
> http://www.blamont.info/textes309.html
>
> "The main reason the lists of French dead are incomplete is that they were simply so numerous. The final toll included three dukes (Alençon, Bar and Brabant), at least eight counts (Blamont, Fauquembergue, Grandpré, Marle, Nevers, Roucy, Vaucourt and Vaudémont) and one viscount (Pulsaye, younger brother of the duke of Bar), which is suggestive."
>
> https://erenow.net/ww/agincourt-henry-v/16.php

The count killed at Agincourt was Jean, whose last extant document is a
confirmation for Saint-Médard priory dated 15 September 1415. His only
son, Louis, lived until the 1440s and his father Edouard I was dead
before Jean's step-mother had remarried by 1396.

Peter Stewart

--
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Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?

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Subject: Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?
From: frenchco...@gmail.com (Darrell E. Larocque)
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 by: Darrell E. Larocque - Mon, 24 Apr 2023 23:36 UTC

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:41:35 PM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 25-Apr-23 3:42 AM, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > I have a problem with the Grandpre line with two individuals:
> >
> > 1. EDOUARD [I] de Grandpré, son of JEAN [II] Comte de Grandpré & his [second] wife Catherine de Châtillon (-before 31 Aug 1396). Comte de Grandpré.
> >
> > a. Son JEAN [III] de Grandpré (-after 15 Sep 1415). Comte de Grandpré.
> >
> > https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/champorret.htm#EdouardGrandpredied1396
> >
> > I have seen several histories of the Battle of Agincourt which names the "comte de Grand-Pre" as one of the dead, and some name Edouard, Comte de Grandpre as that man, but FMG has him as dead before 31 Aug 1396. If this is true, then Jean should be the dead comte de Grand-Pre noted in the dead. It just makes no sense.
> >
> > Darrell
> >
> > Examples:
> >
> > "Edouard II, comte de Grand-Pré, de la maison de Porcien"
> >
> > https://books.google.com/books?id=nqWF1DFzhdgC&pg=PA57#v=onepage&q&f=false
> >
> > "S'ensuivent les noms des seigneurs et gentils hommes qui moururent à ladite bataille de la partie des François. ... Les princes : le duc Antoine de Brabant, frère au duc Jean de Bourgogne ; le duc Edouard de Bar, le duc d'Alençon, le comte de Nevers, frère audit duc de Bourgogne; messire Robert, comte de Marle; le comte de Vaudemont, Jean, frère au duc de Bar; le comte de Blamont ; le comte de Grand-Pré ; le comte de Roussy, le comte de Fauquembergue ; messire Louis de Bourbon, fils au seigneur de Préaux. Autres grands seigneurs"
> >
> > http://www.blamont.info/textes309.html
> >
> > "The main reason the lists of French dead are incomplete is that they were simply so numerous. The final toll included three dukes (Alençon, Bar and Brabant), at least eight counts (Blamont, Fauquembergue, Grandpré, Marle, Nevers, Roucy, Vaucourt and Vaudémont) and one viscount (Pulsaye, younger brother of the duke of Bar), which is suggestive."
> >
> > https://erenow.net/ww/agincourt-henry-v/16.php
> The count killed at Agincourt was Jean, whose last extant document is a
> confirmation for Saint-Médard priory dated 15 September 1415. His only
> son, Louis, lived until the 1440s and his father Edouard I was dead
> before Jean's step-mother had remarried by 1396.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com

See, now that makes perfect sense. Thank you!

Darrell

Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?

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Subject: Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?
From: frenchco...@gmail.com (Darrell E. Larocque)
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 by: Darrell E. Larocque - Tue, 25 Apr 2023 00:36 UTC

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:41:35 PM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 25-Apr-23 3:42 AM, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > I have a problem with the Grandpre line with two individuals:
> >
> > 1. EDOUARD [I] de Grandpré, son of JEAN [II] Comte de Grandpré & his [second] wife Catherine de Châtillon (-before 31 Aug 1396). Comte de Grandpré.
> >
> > a. Son JEAN [III] de Grandpré (-after 15 Sep 1415). Comte de Grandpré.
> >
> > https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/champorret.htm#EdouardGrandpredied1396
> >
> > I have seen several histories of the Battle of Agincourt which names the "comte de Grand-Pre" as one of the dead, and some name Edouard, Comte de Grandpre as that man, but FMG has him as dead before 31 Aug 1396. If this is true, then Jean should be the dead comte de Grand-Pre noted in the dead. It just makes no sense.
> >
> > Darrell
> >
> > Examples:
> >
> > "Edouard II, comte de Grand-Pré, de la maison de Porcien"
> >
> > https://books.google.com/books?id=nqWF1DFzhdgC&pg=PA57#v=onepage&q&f=false
> >
> > "S'ensuivent les noms des seigneurs et gentils hommes qui moururent à ladite bataille de la partie des François. ... Les princes : le duc Antoine de Brabant, frère au duc Jean de Bourgogne ; le duc Edouard de Bar, le duc d'Alençon, le comte de Nevers, frère audit duc de Bourgogne; messire Robert, comte de Marle; le comte de Vaudemont, Jean, frère au duc de Bar; le comte de Blamont ; le comte de Grand-Pré ; le comte de Roussy, le comte de Fauquembergue ; messire Louis de Bourbon, fils au seigneur de Préaux. Autres grands seigneurs"
> >
> > http://www.blamont.info/textes309.html
> >
> > "The main reason the lists of French dead are incomplete is that they were simply so numerous. The final toll included three dukes (Alençon, Bar and Brabant), at least eight counts (Blamont, Fauquembergue, Grandpré, Marle, Nevers, Roucy, Vaucourt and Vaudémont) and one viscount (Pulsaye, younger brother of the duke of Bar), which is suggestive."
> >
> > https://erenow.net/ww/agincourt-henry-v/16.php
> The count killed at Agincourt was Jean, whose last extant document is a
> confirmation for Saint-Médard priory dated 15 September 1415. His only
> son, Louis, lived until the 1440s and his father Edouard I was dead
> before Jean's step-mother had remarried by 1396.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com

See, now that makes perfect sense. Thank you!

I think I see WHY this happened- Anselme totally ignores Jean in his work and goes right from Edouard I to Edouard II.

Darrell

Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?

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Subject: Re: Which Comte de Grandpre died at Agincourt?
From: frenchco...@gmail.com (Darrell E. Larocque)
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 by: Darrell E. Larocque - Tue, 25 Apr 2023 01:30 UTC

On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 8:36:53 PM UTC-4, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 6:41:35 PM UTC-4, Peter Stewart wrote:
> > On 25-Apr-23 3:42 AM, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
> > > I have a problem with the Grandpre line with two individuals:
> > >
> > > 1. EDOUARD [I] de Grandpré, son of JEAN [II] Comte de Grandpré & his [second] wife Catherine de Châtillon (-before 31 Aug 1396). Comte de Grandpré.
> > >
> > > a. Son JEAN [III] de Grandpré (-after 15 Sep 1415). Comte de Grandpré.
> > >
> > > https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/champorret.htm#EdouardGrandpredied1396
> > >
> > > I have seen several histories of the Battle of Agincourt which names the "comte de Grand-Pre" as one of the dead, and some name Edouard, Comte de Grandpre as that man, but FMG has him as dead before 31 Aug 1396. If this is true, then Jean should be the dead comte de Grand-Pre noted in the dead.. It just makes no sense.
> > >
> > > Darrell
> > >
> > > Examples:
> > >
> > > "Edouard II, comte de Grand-Pré, de la maison de Porcien"
> > >
> > > https://books.google.com/books?id=nqWF1DFzhdgC&pg=PA57#v=onepage&q&f=false
> > >
> > > "S'ensuivent les noms des seigneurs et gentils hommes qui moururent à ladite bataille de la partie des François. ... Les princes : le duc Antoine de Brabant, frère au duc Jean de Bourgogne ; le duc Edouard de Bar, le duc d'Alençon, le comte de Nevers, frère audit duc de Bourgogne; messire Robert, comte de Marle; le comte de Vaudemont, Jean, frère au duc de Bar; le comte de Blamont ; le comte de Grand-Pré ; le comte de Roussy, le comte de Fauquembergue ; messire Louis de Bourbon, fils au seigneur de Préaux. Autres grands seigneurs"
> > >
> > > http://www.blamont.info/textes309.html
> > >
> > > "The main reason the lists of French dead are incomplete is that they were simply so numerous. The final toll included three dukes (Alençon, Bar and Brabant), at least eight counts (Blamont, Fauquembergue, Grandpré, Marle, Nevers, Roucy, Vaucourt and Vaudémont) and one viscount (Pulsaye, younger brother of the duke of Bar), which is suggestive."
> > >
> > > https://erenow.net/ww/agincourt-henry-v/16.php
> > The count killed at Agincourt was Jean, whose last extant document is a
> > confirmation for Saint-Médard priory dated 15 September 1415. His only
> > son, Louis, lived until the 1440s and his father Edouard I was dead
> > before Jean's step-mother had remarried by 1396.
> >
> > Peter Stewart
> >
> > --
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> See, now that makes perfect sense. Thank you!
>
> I think I see WHY this happened- Anselme totally ignores Jean in his work and goes right from Edouard I to Edouard II.
>
> Darrell

For posterity, those who need to find the rare notice of Jean, it is in Revue de Champagne et de Brie, Tome 12, p. 93.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6564051m/f99.item

The full series is as follows:

Barthélemy, A. de ‘Notice historique sur la maison de Grandpré’, Revue de Champagne et de Brie, Tomes 8 (Paris, 1880), pp. 339-52, 9 (1880), pp. 97-105, 214-24, 10 (1881), pp. 33-41, 225-32, 393-400, 12 (1881), pp. 91-8, 13 (1882), pp. 183-91, 358-62, 14 (1883), pp. 33-9, 15 (1883), pp. 454-60, 18 (1885), pp. 9-17.

https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/chamintro.htm

Darrell

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