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He knows not how to know who knows not also how to unknow. -- Sir Richard Burton

interests / soc.genealogy.medieval / Meanings of nepos/neptis

Since I am not yet able to continue the threads on Richilde of Hainaut,
it may be useful in the meantime to post about the range of meanings for
the term neptis that is used in several relationship statements about her.

Neptis is the usual feminine form of nepos (grandson, nephew or
kinsman), although variants also occur - nepta (most commonly), nepota
(rarely) and neptena (very rarely). It is possible that some writers
thought nepta had a looser meaning than neptis and could be used more
freely. The difficulty of pinning down the meaning with certainty is
that there can be two questions when the word is used: what did the
writer intend to be understood by it? and what real relationship existed
in the first place? Medieval writers could of course be mistaken or
sloppy as frequently as journalists today.

The Latin word nepos was derived ultimately from the Greek νέποδες
(nepodes), offspring. This is supposed to mean literally web-footed,
i.e. connected by flesh, as are lineal descendants by blood to their
ancestors. In Roman law nepos/neptis always meant grandson/granddaughter
and was not extended from lineal to collateral relationships covering
nephew/niece as came to happen in common usage. The proper terms for the
latter were filius/filia fratris/sororis - son/daughter of a
brother/sister, as can be seen here in the Digest 38.10.1.4-5:
https://droitromain.univ-grenoble-alpes.fr/Corpus/d-38.htm#10 (4.
Secundo gradu sunt supra avus avia. Infra nepos neptis. Ex transverso
frater soror (In the second (lineal) degree ascending are a grandfather
and a grandmother. In descent a grandson and a granddaughter. In
collateral are a brother and a sister). 5. Tertio gradu sunt supra
proavus proavia. Infra pronepos proneptis. Ex transverso fratris
sororisque filius filia (In the third degree ascending are a
great-grandfather and a great-grandmother. In descent a great-grandson
and a great-granddaughter. In collateral are a son and a daughter of a
brother or a sister).

From around the late 2nd century inscriptions are found where nepos is
evidently used for a nephew rather than a grandson, maybe because it was
easier to carve fewer letters or to fit them into the space available,
maybe because common usage had changed by that time. However,
conventional literary usage did not change until later.

The development to using nepos/neptis for collateral relationships may
have come about from the similarity to the Greek ἀνεψιός (anepsios),
meaning cousin - literally a co-grandchild. In Latin a male cousin on
the mother's side was consobrinus and on the father's side frater
patruelis, which was often simplified to frater when the writer cannot
have meant a sibling - this potentially confusing usage may have led to
extending nepos to collateral relatives.

A further meaning of nepos in classical Latin was for a wastrel or
idler, presumably because young men with living grandfathers, who had to
wait an extra generation to come into their inheritance, tended to be
irresponsible and self-indulgent.

In medieval usage nepos/neptis meant grandson/granddaughter, or more
often nephew/niece simply because most individuals once they became old
enough to be written about no longer had living grandparents as the
focus of reference. However, the terms were sometimes extended beyond
these close family relationships and even to much broader kinship.

There are examples where the intended meaning is set out, for instance
for a first cousin when Regino of Prüm in the early-10th century
described someone as "nepos Odonis regis, filius scilicet avunculi eius"
(nepos of King Eudes, son that is of his uncle). In other cases it is
not clear exactly what the writer had in mind, as for example when
Thietmar around a century later described Gisela of Swabia as neptis to
her third husband Konrad II, "Cono, cui iam inlicite nupsit neptis sua,
Ernasti ducis vidua" (Konrad, who had illicitly married his neptis, Duke
Ernest's widow). Gisela was a third cousin once removed to Konrad by
descent from Heinrich the Fowler, as well as being a sister of the widow
of his paternal uncle Konrad of Carinthia.

Nepos was not used exclusively for junior collateral relatives. In 881
Charles the Fat (born 839) used it for his deceased agnatic first cousin
and imperial predecessor Ludwig II (born 822/25), "ut sicuti beatae
memorie nepotis atque antecessoris nostri Hludouuici gloriosi
im[perato]ris largitate concessum est". In 1002 Heinrich II (born 973)
used it for his older second cousin Otto of Worms, duke of Carinthia
(born ca 948/50), a son of his paternal grandfather's niece, "per
petitionem dilecti nepotis nostri Ottonis ducis". In 1042 Heinrich III
(born 1016/17) used it for his older agnatic first cousin once removed
Bruno, bishop of Würzburg, "per interventum ac petitionem nepotis nostri
Brunonis sanctae Wirziburgensis aecclesiae episcopi".

In 1019 Robert II of France used it for his second cousin once removed
Étienne I, count of Troyes, whose paternal grandfather Robert of Troyes
was a grandson of King Robert I, "quidam de nostri regni principibus,
nomine Stephanus, nobilitate et potentia comes clarissimus, noster etiam
nepos amantissimus". It was also used for presumably distant relatives
whose connection is unknown, as by Otto II in 979 for a man named Poppo,
"dilectus nepus noster Poppo"; and by Heinrich II in 1009 for Eberhard,
the first bishop of Bamberg, "dilectissimus Babenbergensis aecclesiae
nepos noster Eberhardus episcopus" and in 1013 for Meinwerk, bishop of
Paderborn, "Meinuuercus sanctae Patherbrunnensis aecclesiae venerabilis
episcopus ... prefati episcopi dilectique nepotis nostri".

This wide range of possible meanings should be borne in mind when
Richilde of Hainaut was called neptis to Pope Leo IX, and in the cases
of two women who were each called neptis to Richilde, as will be
specified and discussed in the next parts of the threads on her when I
can retrieve some books and articles that need to be checked first.

Peter Stewart

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 10:22:32 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:
> Since I am not yet able to continue the threads on Richilde of Hainaut,
> it may be useful in the meantime to post about the range of meanings for
> the term neptis that is used in several relationship statements about her..
>
> Neptis is the usual feminine form of nepos (grandson, nephew or
> kinsman), although variants also occur - nepta (most commonly), nepota
> (rarely) and neptena (very rarely). It is possible that some writers
> thought nepta had a looser meaning than neptis and could be used more
> freely. The difficulty of pinning down the meaning with certainty is
> that there can be two questions when the word is used: what did the
> writer intend to be understood by it? and what real relationship existed
> in the first place? Medieval writers could of course be mistaken or
> sloppy as frequently as journalists today.
>
> The Latin word nepos was derived ultimately from the Greek νέποδες
> (nepodes), offspring. This is supposed to mean literally web-footed,
> i.e. connected by flesh, as are lineal descendants by blood to their
> ancestors. In Roman law nepos/neptis always meant grandson/granddaughter
> and was not extended from lineal to collateral relationships covering
> nephew/niece as came to happen in common usage. The proper terms for the
> latter were filius/filia fratris/sororis - son/daughter of a
> brother/sister, as can be seen here in the Digest 38.10.1.4-5:
> https://droitromain.univ-grenoble-alpes.fr/Corpus/d-38.htm#10 (4.
> Secundo gradu sunt supra avus avia. Infra nepos neptis. Ex transverso
> frater soror (In the second (lineal) degree ascending are a grandfather
> and a grandmother. In descent a grandson and a granddaughter. In
> collateral are a brother and a sister). 5. Tertio gradu sunt supra
> proavus proavia. Infra pronepos proneptis. Ex transverso fratris
> sororisque filius filia (In the third degree ascending are a
> great-grandfather and a great-grandmother. In descent a great-grandson
> and a great-granddaughter. In collateral are a son and a daughter of a
> brother or a sister).
>
> From around the late 2nd century inscriptions are found where nepos is
> evidently used for a nephew rather than a grandson, maybe because it was
> easier to carve fewer letters or to fit them into the space available,
> maybe because common usage had changed by that time. However,
> conventional literary usage did not change until later.
>
> The development to using nepos/neptis for collateral relationships may
> have come about from the similarity to the Greek ἀνεψιός (anepsios),
> meaning cousin - literally a co-grandchild. In Latin a male cousin on
> the mother's side was consobrinus and on the father's side frater
> patruelis, which was often simplified to frater when the writer cannot
> have meant a sibling - this potentially confusing usage may have led to
> extending nepos to collateral relatives.
>
> A further meaning of nepos in classical Latin was for a wastrel or
> idler, presumably because young men with living grandfathers, who had to
> wait an extra generation to come into their inheritance, tended to be
> irresponsible and self-indulgent.
>
> In medieval usage nepos/neptis meant grandson/granddaughter, or more
> often nephew/niece simply because most individuals once they became old
> enough to be written about no longer had living grandparents as the
> focus of reference. However, the terms were sometimes extended beyond
> these close family relationships and even to much broader kinship.
>
> There are examples where the intended meaning is set out, for instance
> for a first cousin when Regino of Prüm in the early-10th century
> described someone as "nepos Odonis regis, filius scilicet avunculi eius"
> (nepos of King Eudes, son that is of his uncle). In other cases it is
> not clear exactly what the writer had in mind, as for example when
> Thietmar around a century later described Gisela of Swabia as neptis to
> her third husband Konrad II, "Cono, cui iam inlicite nupsit neptis sua,
> Ernasti ducis vidua" (Konrad, who had illicitly married his neptis, Duke
> Ernest's widow). Gisela was a third cousin once removed to Konrad by
> descent from Heinrich the Fowler, as well as being a sister of the widow
> of his paternal uncle Konrad of Carinthia.
>
> Nepos was not used exclusively for junior collateral relatives. In 881
> Charles the Fat (born 839) used it for his deceased agnatic first cousin
> and imperial predecessor Ludwig II (born 822/25), "ut sicuti beatae
> memorie nepotis atque antecessoris nostri Hludouuici gloriosi
> im[perato]ris largitate concessum est". In 1002 Heinrich II (born 973)
> used it for his older second cousin Otto of Worms, duke of Carinthia
> (born ca 948/50), a son of his paternal grandfather's niece, "per
> petitionem dilecti nepotis nostri Ottonis ducis". In 1042 Heinrich III
> (born 1016/17) used it for his older agnatic first cousin once removed
> Bruno, bishop of Würzburg, "per interventum ac petitionem nepotis nostri
> Brunonis sanctae Wirziburgensis aecclesiae episcopi".
>
> In 1019 Robert II of France used it for his second cousin once removed
> Étienne I, count of Troyes, whose paternal grandfather Robert of Troyes
> was a grandson of King Robert I, "quidam de nostri regni principibus,
> nomine Stephanus, nobilitate et potentia comes clarissimus, noster etiam
> nepos amantissimus". It was also used for presumably distant relatives
> whose connection is unknown, as by Otto II in 979 for a man named Poppo,
> "dilectus nepus noster Poppo"; and by Heinrich II in 1009 for Eberhard,
> the first bishop of Bamberg, "dilectissimus Babenbergensis aecclesiae
> nepos noster Eberhardus episcopus" and in 1013 for Meinwerk, bishop of
> Paderborn, "Meinuuercus sanctae Patherbrunnensis aecclesiae venerabilis
> episcopus ... prefati episcopi dilectique nepotis nostri".
>
> This wide range of possible meanings should be borne in mind when
> Richilde of Hainaut was called neptis to Pope Leo IX, and in the cases
> of two women who were each called neptis to Richilde, as will be
> specified and discussed in the next parts of the threads on her when I
> can retrieve some books and articles that need to be checked first.
>
> Peter Stewart
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
> www.avg.com

Thank you, Peter!

On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 6:22:32 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
> Since I am not yet able to continue the threads on Richilde of Hainaut,
> it may be useful in the meantime to post about the range of meanings for
> the term neptis that is used in several relationship statements about her..
>
> Neptis is the usual feminine form of nepos (grandson, nephew or
> kinsman), although variants also occur - nepta (most commonly), nepota
> (rarely) and neptena (very rarely). It is possible that some writers
> thought nepta had a looser meaning than neptis and could be used more
> freely. The difficulty of pinning down the meaning with certainty is
> that there can be two questions when the word is used: what did the
> writer intend to be understood by it? and what real relationship existed
> in the first place? Medieval writers could of course be mistaken or
> sloppy as frequently as journalists today.
>
> The Latin word nepos was derived ultimately from the Greek νέποδες
> (nepodes), offspring. This is supposed to mean literally web-footed,
> i.e. connected by flesh, as are lineal descendants by blood to their
> ancestors. In Roman law nepos/neptis always meant grandson/granddaughter
> and was not extended from lineal to collateral relationships covering
> nephew/niece as came to happen in common usage. The proper terms for the
> latter were filius/filia fratris/sororis - son/daughter of a
> brother/sister, as can be seen here in the Digest 38.10.1.4-5:
> https://droitromain.univ-grenoble-alpes.fr/Corpus/d-38.htm#10 (4.
> Secundo gradu sunt supra avus avia. Infra nepos neptis. Ex transverso
> frater soror (In the second (lineal) degree ascending are a grandfather
> and a grandmother. In descent a grandson and a granddaughter. In
> collateral are a brother and a sister). 5. Tertio gradu sunt supra
> proavus proavia. Infra pronepos proneptis. Ex transverso fratris
> sororisque filius filia (In the third degree ascending are a
> great-grandfather and a great-grandmother. In descent a great-grandson
> and a great-granddaughter. In collateral are a son and a daughter of a
> brother or a sister).
>
> From around the late 2nd century inscriptions are found where nepos is
> evidently used for a nephew rather than a grandson, maybe because it was
> easier to carve fewer letters or to fit them into the space available,
> maybe because common usage had changed by that time. However,
> conventional literary usage did not change until later.
>
> The development to using nepos/neptis for collateral relationships may
> have come about from the similarity to the Greek ἀνεψιός (anepsios),
> meaning cousin - literally a co-grandchild. In Latin a male cousin on
> the mother's side was consobrinus and on the father's side frater
> patruelis, which was often simplified to frater when the writer cannot
> have meant a sibling - this potentially confusing usage may have led to
> extending nepos to collateral relatives.
>
> A further meaning of nepos in classical Latin was for a wastrel or
> idler, presumably because young men with living grandfathers, who had to
> wait an extra generation to come into their inheritance, tended to be
> irresponsible and self-indulgent.
>
> In medieval usage nepos/neptis meant grandson/granddaughter, or more
> often nephew/niece simply because most individuals once they became old
> enough to be written about no longer had living grandparents as the
> focus of reference. However, the terms were sometimes extended beyond
> these close family relationships and even to much broader kinship.
>
> There are examples where the intended meaning is set out, for instance
> for a first cousin when Regino of Prüm in the early-10th century
> described someone as "nepos Odonis regis, filius scilicet avunculi eius"
> (nepos of King Eudes, son that is of his uncle). In other cases it is
> not clear exactly what the writer had in mind, as for example when
> Thietmar around a century later described Gisela of Swabia as neptis to
> her third husband Konrad II, "Cono, cui iam inlicite nupsit neptis sua,
> Ernasti ducis vidua" (Konrad, who had illicitly married his neptis, Duke
> Ernest's widow). Gisela was a third cousin once removed to Konrad by
> descent from Heinrich the Fowler, as well as being a sister of the widow
> of his paternal uncle Konrad of Carinthia.
>
> Nepos was not used exclusively for junior collateral relatives. In 881
> Charles the Fat (born 839) used it for his deceased agnatic first cousin
> and imperial predecessor Ludwig II (born 822/25), "ut sicuti beatae
> memorie nepotis atque antecessoris nostri Hludouuici gloriosi
> im[perato]ris largitate concessum est". In 1002 Heinrich II (born 973)
> used it for his older second cousin Otto of Worms, duke of Carinthia
> (born ca 948/50), a son of his paternal grandfather's niece, "per
> petitionem dilecti nepotis nostri Ottonis ducis". In 1042 Heinrich III
> (born 1016/17) used it for his older agnatic first cousin once removed
> Bruno, bishop of Würzburg, "per interventum ac petitionem nepotis nostri
> Brunonis sanctae Wirziburgensis aecclesiae episcopi".
>
> In 1019 Robert II of France used it for his second cousin once removed
> Étienne I, count of Troyes, whose paternal grandfather Robert of Troyes
> was a grandson of King Robert I, "quidam de nostri regni principibus,
> nomine Stephanus, nobilitate et potentia comes clarissimus, noster etiam
> nepos amantissimus". It was also used for presumably distant relatives
> whose connection is unknown, as by Otto II in 979 for a man named Poppo,
> "dilectus nepus noster Poppo"; and by Heinrich II in 1009 for Eberhard,
> the first bishop of Bamberg, "dilectissimus Babenbergensis aecclesiae
> nepos noster Eberhardus episcopus" and in 1013 for Meinwerk, bishop of
> Paderborn, "Meinuuercus sanctae Patherbrunnensis aecclesiae venerabilis
> episcopus ... prefati episcopi dilectique nepotis nostri".
>
> This wide range of possible meanings should be borne in mind when
> Richilde of Hainaut was called neptis to Pope Leo IX, and in the cases
> of two women who were each called neptis to Richilde, as will be
> specified and discussed in the next parts of the threads on her when I
> can retrieve some books and articles that need to be checked first.
>
> Peter Stewart
>

I think the problems with knowing what the writer meant by nepos etc has come
up many times before. It does seem that the classical usage was grandchild,
but during the dark ages it became a bit of a catch all term. In England it seems
it was only after 1300 that the meaning nephew or neice became the norm.
According to what I read on the web, nephew neffe & neveu all come from
the same root = nepos; i just wonder how a p became an f or v sound?

In a recent thread there was a quote from Prudentius about Ricbod [or Nithard]
who was _nepos uidelicet Karoli imperatoris ex filia_ clearly a grandchild of
Charlemagne. In another I think you pointed to the work of the bishops of
Metz [by Paul the deacon] where Arnoald is called the _nepos_ of bishop Agiulf.
I think this is usually seen as nephew, but as St.Arnulf had 2 sons before he
became a bishop, could Arnoald also be a grandson of Agiulf in the classical
sense of the word? However I doubt Richilde was the grand daughter of Pope
Leo [given Brunos reputation, with other popes maybe this would be a clear
possibility], so some other relationship is meant.

Also Nepos seems to have been a family surname in the late roman times,
because there was an emperor called Julius Nepos [d480] sometimes just
Nepos. I did wonder if it was a nickname as he succeeded his uncle
Marcellinus as warlord of Dalmatia, but his own father was called Nepotianus,
and apparently there were other aristos with the surname Nepos in the 5th
century.

Mike

On 02-May-23 7:35 AM, mike davis wrote:
> On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 6:22:32 AM UTC+1, Peter Stewart wrote:
>> Since I am not yet able to continue the threads on Richilde of Hainaut,
>> it may be useful in the meantime to post about the range of meanings for
>> the term neptis that is used in several relationship statements about her.
>>
>> Neptis is the usual feminine form of nepos (grandson, nephew or
>> kinsman), although variants also occur - nepta (most commonly), nepota
>> (rarely) and neptena (very rarely). It is possible that some writers
>> thought nepta had a looser meaning than neptis and could be used more
>> freely. The difficulty of pinning down the meaning with certainty is
>> that there can be two questions when the word is used: what did the
>> writer intend to be understood by it? and what real relationship existed
>> in the first place? Medieval writers could of course be mistaken or
>> sloppy as frequently as journalists today.
>>
>> The Latin word nepos was derived ultimately from the Greek νέποδες
>> (nepodes), offspring. This is supposed to mean literally web-footed,
>> i.e. connected by flesh, as are lineal descendants by blood to their
>> ancestors. In Roman law nepos/neptis always meant grandson/granddaughter
>> and was not extended from lineal to collateral relationships covering
>> nephew/niece as came to happen in common usage. The proper terms for the
>> latter were filius/filia fratris/sororis - son/daughter of a
>> brother/sister, as can be seen here in the Digest 38.10.1.4-5:
>> https://droitromain.univ-grenoble-alpes.fr/Corpus/d-38.htm#10 (4.
>> Secundo gradu sunt supra avus avia. Infra nepos neptis. Ex transverso
>> frater soror (In the second (lineal) degree ascending are a grandfather
>> and a grandmother. In descent a grandson and a granddaughter. In
>> collateral are a brother and a sister). 5. Tertio gradu sunt supra
>> proavus proavia. Infra pronepos proneptis. Ex transverso fratris
>> sororisque filius filia (In the third degree ascending are a
>> great-grandfather and a great-grandmother. In descent a great-grandson
>> and a great-granddaughter. In collateral are a son and a daughter of a
>> brother or a sister).
>>
>> From around the late 2nd century inscriptions are found where nepos is
>> evidently used for a nephew rather than a grandson, maybe because it was
>> easier to carve fewer letters or to fit them into the space available,
>> maybe because common usage had changed by that time. However,
>> conventional literary usage did not change until later.
>>
>> The development to using nepos/neptis for collateral relationships may
>> have come about from the similarity to the Greek ἀνεψιός (anepsios),
>> meaning cousin - literally a co-grandchild. In Latin a male cousin on
>> the mother's side was consobrinus and on the father's side frater
>> patruelis, which was often simplified to frater when the writer cannot
>> have meant a sibling - this potentially confusing usage may have led to
>> extending nepos to collateral relatives.
>>
>> A further meaning of nepos in classical Latin was for a wastrel or
>> idler, presumably because young men with living grandfathers, who had to
>> wait an extra generation to come into their inheritance, tended to be
>> irresponsible and self-indulgent.
>>
>> In medieval usage nepos/neptis meant grandson/granddaughter, or more
>> often nephew/niece simply because most individuals once they became old
>> enough to be written about no longer had living grandparents as the
>> focus of reference. However, the terms were sometimes extended beyond
>> these close family relationships and even to much broader kinship.
>>
>> There are examples where the intended meaning is set out, for instance
>> for a first cousin when Regino of Prüm in the early-10th century
>> described someone as "nepos Odonis regis, filius scilicet avunculi eius"
>> (nepos of King Eudes, son that is of his uncle). In other cases it is
>> not clear exactly what the writer had in mind, as for example when
>> Thietmar around a century later described Gisela of Swabia as neptis to
>> her third husband Konrad II, "Cono, cui iam inlicite nupsit neptis sua,
>> Ernasti ducis vidua" (Konrad, who had illicitly married his neptis, Duke
>> Ernest's widow). Gisela was a third cousin once removed to Konrad by
>> descent from Heinrich the Fowler, as well as being a sister of the widow
>> of his paternal uncle Konrad of Carinthia.
>>
>> Nepos was not used exclusively for junior collateral relatives. In 881
>> Charles the Fat (born 839) used it for his deceased agnatic first cousin
>> and imperial predecessor Ludwig II (born 822/25), "ut sicuti beatae
>> memorie nepotis atque antecessoris nostri Hludouuici gloriosi
>> im[perato]ris largitate concessum est". In 1002 Heinrich II (born 973)
>> used it for his older second cousin Otto of Worms, duke of Carinthia
>> (born ca 948/50), a son of his paternal grandfather's niece, "per
>> petitionem dilecti nepotis nostri Ottonis ducis". In 1042 Heinrich III
>> (born 1016/17) used it for his older agnatic first cousin once removed
>> Bruno, bishop of Würzburg, "per interventum ac petitionem nepotis nostri
>> Brunonis sanctae Wirziburgensis aecclesiae episcopi".
>>
>> In 1019 Robert II of France used it for his second cousin once removed
>> Étienne I, count of Troyes, whose paternal grandfather Robert of Troyes
>> was a grandson of King Robert I, "quidam de nostri regni principibus,
>> nomine Stephanus, nobilitate et potentia comes clarissimus, noster etiam
>> nepos amantissimus". It was also used for presumably distant relatives
>> whose connection is unknown, as by Otto II in 979 for a man named Poppo,
>> "dilectus nepus noster Poppo"; and by Heinrich II in 1009 for Eberhard,
>> the first bishop of Bamberg, "dilectissimus Babenbergensis aecclesiae
>> nepos noster Eberhardus episcopus" and in 1013 for Meinwerk, bishop of
>> Paderborn, "Meinuuercus sanctae Patherbrunnensis aecclesiae venerabilis
>> episcopus ... prefati episcopi dilectique nepotis nostri".
>>
>> This wide range of possible meanings should be borne in mind when
>> Richilde of Hainaut was called neptis to Pope Leo IX, and in the cases
>> of two women who were each called neptis to Richilde, as will be
>> specified and discussed in the next parts of the threads on her when I
>> can retrieve some books and articles that need to be checked first.
>>
>> Peter Stewart
>>
>
> I think the problems with knowing what the writer meant by nepos etc has come
> up many times before. It does seem that the classical usage was grandchild,
> but during the dark ages it became a bit of a catch all term. In England it seems
> it was only after 1300 that the meaning nephew or neice became the norm.
> According to what I read on the web, nephew neffe & neveu all come from
> the same root = nepos; i just wonder how a p became an f or v sound?

Where do you get 1300 as a tipping-point for changed normal meaning in
England? Nepos was glossed as meaning grandson or nephew and neptis as
meaning niece, granddaughter/great-granddaughter in a 10th- or
11th-century supplement to Ælfric's vocabulary, see here
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=p8U_AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA51, "Nepos, suna
sune, vel broder sune, vel suster sune, þaet is nefa. Neptis, broðer
dochter, vel suster dohter, nefene, þridder dohter." In the late-11th
century Osbern described St Dunstan as nepos and brother's son to
Archbishop Athelm, see p. 79 beginning of chapter 9 here
https://archive.org/details/ldpd_10972579_000/page/207/mode/1up
"Cantuariorum archiepiscopi Athelmi, cujus ipse erat nepos et filius
fratris". In the late-12th century chronicle of Ramsey abbey a younger
namesake was described as St Oswald's nepos from a brother, see here
https://archive.org/details/chroniconabbati00abbegoog/page/112/mode/1up,
"Oswaldus, sancti Oswoldi ex fratre nepos".

The word nepos is derived from the proto-Indo-European népōts, with
variants found in Sanskrit, Germanic and other languages. The root may
have originally meant "without a master" or possibly "web-footed".

> In a recent thread there was a quote from Prudentius about Ricbod [or Nithard]
> who was _nepos uidelicet Karoli imperatoris ex filia_ clearly a grandchild of
> Charlemagne. In another I think you pointed to the work of the bishops of
> Metz [by Paul the deacon] where Arnoald is called the _nepos_ of bishop Agiulf.
> I think this is usually seen as nephew, but as St.Arnulf had 2 sons before he
> became a bishop, could Arnoald also be a grandson of Agiulf in the classical
> sense of the word? However I doubt Richilde was the grand daughter of Pope
> Leo [given Brunos reputation, with other popes maybe this would be a clear
> possibility], so some other relationship is meant.

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Subject	Author
Meanings of nepos/neptis	Peter Stewart
Re: Meanings of nepos/neptis	pj.ev...@gmail.com
Re: Meanings of nepos/neptis	mike davis
Re: Meanings of nepos/neptis	Peter Stewart
Re: Meanings of nepos/neptis	Peter Stewart