Sooooooo about 22 years ago I bought a Bench Dog cabinet, and Pro fence.
Then added 2 drawers to the cabinet.

3 years later I hung a Triton router under the top and that has been
adequate..... ....

I want a new router lift and plan to put my Bosch 1617 EVS router in the
lift.

Bench Dog used a 8.25 x 11.75 opening. On a side note so does Rockler.
The normal size is 9.25 x 11.75. All in inches.

Apparently JessEm makes the best router lift. AND they make router
lifts for Rockler and Incra. And JessEm makes the lift in both sizes.
If going with the JessEm lift I would go with the Mast-R-Lift. The
Incra Mast-R-Lift comes in both sizes too but you can only buy the Incra
8.25 lift at Rockler. Go figger. The Incra comes with steel insert
rings, multiple sizes to close the gap around the bit. The JessEm uses
plastic rings in multiple sizes.

My Bench Dog table sags so I will likely get a new phenolic top or cast
iron. And of course that will likely require a new fence. One thing
leads to another. AND Jessem offers the Mast-R- Lift permanently
attached to a phenolic top. The top is not removable and has a hand
crank on the side. And the hand crank operates as a speed quadruple
that of the regular Mast-r-Lift, 1/8" vs 1/32" per revolution of the
hand crank/wheel.

The all in one mentioned above does not have the dial to show how many
"thousandths" you have adjusted, you have to buy a digital Wixey style
meter for that.

The Woodpecker lift looks sexy but you use a spring loaded plunger to
mover the router up and down in coarse increments, when you stop pushing
or lifting the router stops. Then you spin a thumb wheel to turn the
indicator dial and to fine tune the bit height. That takes several
pushes of the wheel to move 1/32" If you coarse adjust to with in 1/2"
of where you want to be you might have to push that thumb wheel 48
times. You can only turn that thumb wheel about 1/6 of a revolution and
remember a single thumb wheel push might be only be 1/192".

So! What to do!

What do Y'all have in your shop? AND if you have any of the above
lifts/setups what have you found to be a pro or con.

BOB bought the Incra Mast-r-Lift set up. AND IIRC he loves it.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> What do Y'all have in your shop? AND if you have any of the above
> lifts/setups what have you found to be a pro or con.

I have the original Woodpeckers lift, an Incra Ultra 16 fence, and a
custom cabinet:

http://www.delorie.com/wood/projects/router/

Some thoughts, pros, and cons:

I like that I can set the lift to within 0.001", likewise the fence.
"But wood moves" you say. Not THAT fast, and dialing in (literally)
decorative dovetails is trivial and precise. However, it's a lot of
dialing. I have a setup where I can use a cordless drill to turn it,
and sometimes I have to disassemble the mechanism and clean it else it
gets harder and harder to turn.

The fence works great for positioning, but only OK as a router fence. I
have a couple of wooden adapters that clamp to it, as the opening is too
small for some routing operations. I wanted the Wonder Fence but
couldn't afford it back then; I should have just gotten it. Maybe I'll
upgrade yet.

The cabinet itself has done its job very well, and remains flat on top.
I used two layers of plywood with a formica laminate top. Section
dividers support the top as well as the various drawers. Having a large
working top with the fence set up like a table saw has worked out just
fine, and I can easily remove the fence system to have a bare top to
work with, such as for rounding over large parts.

On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 17:43:54 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>Sooooooo about 22 years ago I bought a Bench Dog cabinet, and Pro fence.
> Then added 2 drawers to the cabinet.
>
>3 years later I hung a Triton router under the top and that has been
>adequate..... ....
>
>I want a new router lift and plan to put my Bosch 1617 EVS router in the
>lift.
>
>Bench Dog used a 8.25 x 11.75 opening. On a side note so does Rockler.
>The normal size is 9.25 x 11.75. All in inches.
>
>Apparently JessEm makes the best router lift. AND they make router
>lifts for Rockler and Incra. And JessEm makes the lift in both sizes.
>If going with the JessEm lift I would go with the Mast-R-Lift. The
>Incra Mast-R-Lift comes in both sizes too but you can only buy the Incra
>8.25 lift at Rockler. Go figger. The Incra comes with steel insert
>rings, multiple sizes to close the gap around the bit. The JessEm uses
>plastic rings in multiple sizes.
>
>My Bench Dog table sags so I will likely get a new phenolic top or cast
>iron. And of course that will likely require a new fence. One thing
>leads to another. AND Jessem offers the Mast-R- Lift permanently
>attached to a phenolic top. The top is not removable and has a hand
>crank on the side. And the hand crank operates as a speed quadruple
>that of the regular Mast-r-Lift, 1/8" vs 1/32" per revolution of the
>hand crank/wheel.
>
>The all in one mentioned above does not have the dial to show how many
>"thousandths" you have adjusted, you have to buy a digital Wixey style
>meter for that.
>
>The Woodpecker lift looks sexy but you use a spring loaded plunger to
>mover the router up and down in coarse increments, when you stop pushing
>or lifting the router stops. Then you spin a thumb wheel to turn the
>indicator dial and to fine tune the bit height. That takes several
>pushes of the wheel to move 1/32" If you coarse adjust to with in 1/2"
>of where you want to be you might have to push that thumb wheel 48
>times. You can only turn that thumb wheel about 1/6 of a revolution and
>remember a single thumb wheel push might be only be 1/192".
>
>So! What to do!
>
>What do Y'all have in your shop? AND if you have any of the above
>lifts/setups what have you found to be a pro or con.
>
>BOB bought the Incra Mast-r-Lift set up. AND IIRC he loves it.

I'd definitely go with the plastic rings. They're easier on bits and I
don't like shrapnel flying around the shop.

I have the JessEM Mast-R-Lift II, I think (think it's the second
version). I like it. Mine is 9-1/4 x 11-3/4.

There also seems to be a 9-1/32" x 12-3/32" and an older
JessEm/X-acta lift is 11-3/4" x 14-3/4".

Standards are so great that everyone has one.

On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 11:33:31 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 17:43:54 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
> >Sooooooo about 22 years ago I bought a Bench Dog cabinet, and Pro fence.
> > Then added 2 drawers to the cabinet.
> >
> >3 years later I hung a Triton router under the top and that has been
> >adequate..... ....
> >
> >I want a new router lift and plan to put my Bosch 1617 EVS router in the
> >lift.
> >
> >Bench Dog used a 8.25 x 11.75 opening. On a side note so does Rockler.
> >The normal size is 9.25 x 11.75. All in inches.
> >
> >Apparently JessEm makes the best router lift. AND they make router
> >lifts for Rockler and Incra. And JessEm makes the lift in both sizes.
> >If going with the JessEm lift I would go with the Mast-R-Lift. The
> >Incra Mast-R-Lift comes in both sizes too but you can only buy the Incra
> >8.25 lift at Rockler. Go figger. The Incra comes with steel insert
> >rings, multiple sizes to close the gap around the bit. The JessEm uses
> >plastic rings in multiple sizes.
> >
> >My Bench Dog table sags so I will likely get a new phenolic top or cast
> >iron. And of course that will likely require a new fence. One thing
> >leads to another. AND Jessem offers the Mast-R- Lift permanently
> >attached to a phenolic top. The top is not removable and has a hand
> >crank on the side. And the hand crank operates as a speed quadruple
> >that of the regular Mast-r-Lift, 1/8" vs 1/32" per revolution of the
> >hand crank/wheel.
> >
> >The all in one mentioned above does not have the dial to show how many
> >"thousandths" you have adjusted, you have to buy a digital Wixey style
> >meter for that.
> >
> >The Woodpecker lift looks sexy but you use a spring loaded plunger to
> >mover the router up and down in coarse increments, when you stop pushing
> >or lifting the router stops. Then you spin a thumb wheel to turn the
> >indicator dial and to fine tune the bit height. That takes several
> >pushes of the wheel to move 1/32" If you coarse adjust to with in 1/2"
> >of where you want to be you might have to push that thumb wheel 48
> >times. You can only turn that thumb wheel about 1/6 of a revolution and
> >remember a single thumb wheel push might be only be 1/192".
> >
> >So! What to do!
> >
> >What do Y'all have in your shop? AND if you have any of the above
> >lifts/setups what have you found to be a pro or con.
> >
> >BOB bought the Incra Mast-r-Lift set up. AND IIRC he loves it.
> I'd definitely go with the plastic rings. They're easier on bits and I
> don't like shrapnel flying around the shop.

I bought this set of rings from Woodpeckers. Since there is always
an open slot, I use it to hold the tool. I glued in 2 pieces wood to
support it so it stays with the rings and doesn't fall out.

I sent this picture to Woodpeckers, giving them permission to use
my idea, but so far they have not implemented it.

https://i.imgur.com/IaIxe1S.jpg

>
> I have the JessEM Mast-R-Lift II, I think (think it's the second
> version). I like it. Mine is 9-1/4 x 11-3/4.
>
> There also seems to be a 9-1/32" x 12-3/32" and an older
> JessEm/X-acta lift is 11-3/4" x 14-3/4".
>
> Standards are so great that everyone has one.

First off THANK YOU!

I have been eyeing the Incra fence, like yours too. You router lift
looks similar to the competition. The latest version appears to be
crude compared to yours. I really dont like that thumb wheel for
adjustments, minor adjustments yes, an adjustment of 1/16" or more, NO!

As I think I have stated I have the Bench Dog cabinet now and don't want
to reinvent the wheel and buy/build another. But YOUR set up really
looks like a better setup especially with the storage you have under the
top. And if the fence removes easily yet another good sized work surface.

So considering the Incra fence, you mention that it is "OK" as a router
table fence. Besides the smaller opening, is there deflection? It
seems the fence could wiggle only being supported in the middle.

FWIW one of the hundreds of videos that I have watched one guy indicates
that there is a warning to not use a drill to operate the lift. I
really don't see that as a problem if you don't "gun it".

One more question, what router are you using in your table and do you
spin large raised panel bits? I am thinking about switching to my
Bosch 1617 EVS for the router table but I do have raised panel bits that
I current spin with the big Triton router that is under there now. I
want to get away from the Triton. It is a Jack of all trades, but
really not a master of any. The Bosch has a more finely tuned motor
and collet.

Thank you again for your input.

On 7/15/2022 10:22 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> What do Y'all have in your shop? AND if you have any of the above
>> lifts/setups what have you found to be a pro or con.
>
> I have the original Woodpeckers lift, an Incra Ultra 16 fence, and a
> custom cabinet:
>
> http://www.delorie.com/wood/projects/router/
>
> Some thoughts, pros, and cons:
>
> I like that I can set the lift to within 0.001", likewise the fence.
> "But wood moves" you say. Not THAT fast, and dialing in (literally)
> decorative dovetails is trivial and precise. However, it's a lot of
> dialing. I have a setup where I can use a cordless drill to turn it,
> and sometimes I have to disassemble the mechanism and clean it else it
> gets harder and harder to turn.
>
> The fence works great for positioning, but only OK as a router fence. I
> have a couple of wooden adapters that clamp to it, as the opening is too
> small for some routing operations. I wanted the Wonder Fence but
> couldn't afford it back then; I should have just gotten it. Maybe I'll
> upgrade yet.
>
> The cabinet itself has done its job very well, and remains flat on top.
> I used two layers of plywood with a formica laminate top. Section
> dividers support the top as well as the various drawers. Having a large
> working top with the fence set up like a table saw has worked out just
> fine, and I can easily remove the fence system to have a bare top to
> work with, such as for rounding over large parts.

Answering both here. I only saw DerbyDad's reply. See below.

On 7/15/2022 11:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 11:33:31 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 17:43:54 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>> Sooooooo about 22 years ago I bought a Bench Dog cabinet, and Pro fence.
>>> Then added 2 drawers to the cabinet.
>>>
>>> 3 years later I hung a Triton router under the top and that has been
>>> adequate..... ....
>>>
>>> I want a new router lift and plan to put my Bosch 1617 EVS router in the
>>> lift.
>>>
>>> Bench Dog used a 8.25 x 11.75 opening. On a side note so does Rockler.
>>> The normal size is 9.25 x 11.75. All in inches.
>>>
>>> Apparently JessEm makes the best router lift. AND they make router
>>> lifts for Rockler and Incra. And JessEm makes the lift in both sizes.
>>> If going with the JessEm lift I would go with the Mast-R-Lift. The
>>> Incra Mast-R-Lift comes in both sizes too but you can only buy the Incra
>>> 8.25 lift at Rockler. Go figger. The Incra comes with steel insert
>>> rings, multiple sizes to close the gap around the bit. The JessEm uses
>>> plastic rings in multiple sizes.
>>>
>>> My Bench Dog table sags so I will likely get a new phenolic top or cast
>>> iron. And of course that will likely require a new fence. One thing
>>> leads to another. AND Jessem offers the Mast-R- Lift permanently
>>> attached to a phenolic top. The top is not removable and has a hand
>>> crank on the side. And the hand crank operates as a speed quadruple
>>> that of the regular Mast-r-Lift, 1/8" vs 1/32" per revolution of the
>>> hand crank/wheel.
>>>
>>> The all in one mentioned above does not have the dial to show how many
>>> "thousandths" you have adjusted, you have to buy a digital Wixey style
>>> meter for that.
>>>
>>> The Woodpecker lift looks sexy but you use a spring loaded plunger to
>>> mover the router up and down in coarse increments, when you stop pushing
>>> or lifting the router stops. Then you spin a thumb wheel to turn the
>>> indicator dial and to fine tune the bit height. That takes several
>>> pushes of the wheel to move 1/32" If you coarse adjust to with in 1/2"
>>> of where you want to be you might have to push that thumb wheel 48
>>> times. You can only turn that thumb wheel about 1/6 of a revolution and
>>> remember a single thumb wheel push might be only be 1/192".
>>>
>>> So! What to do!
>>>
>>> What do Y'all have in your shop? AND if you have any of the above
>>> lifts/setups what have you found to be a pro or con.
>>>
>>> BOB bought the Incra Mast-r-Lift set up. AND IIRC he loves it.
>> I'd definitely go with the plastic rings. They're easier on bits and I
>> don't like shrapnel flying around the shop.

Well that is what I thought. But apparently the metal rings are
superior for dust collection, with their slotted openings around the
center opening. And IIRC Incra is the only brand that uses the steel
magnetic inserts. Rockler has aluminum inserts on some of their lifts.

>
> I bought this set of rings from Woodpeckers. Since there is always
> an open slot, I use it to hold the tool. I glued in 2 pieces wood to
> support it so it stays with the rings and doesn't fall out.

Cool Idea!

>
> I sent this picture to Woodpeckers, giving them permission to use
> my idea, but so far they have not implemented it.

Don't hold your breath. I sent a tip to Kreg for making easier to
align mitered joints held together with pocket hole screws. My method
creates a self aligning joint that prevents slipping during assembly.
I got nothing from them.

>
> https://i.imgur.com/IaIxe1S.jpg
>
>
>>
>> I have the JessEM Mast-R-Lift II, I think (think it's the second
>> version). I like it. Mine is 9-1/4 x 11-3/4.

Looking at every one's lifts I think the Mast-R- Lift is the best set today.

>>
>> There also seems to be a 9-1/32" x 12-3/32" and an older
>> JessEm/X-acta lift is 11-3/4" x 14-3/4".

So far I have only seen, for purchase today, 8.25" and 9.25" by 11.75".
But then there is also the JessEm that is permanently attached to the
phenolic top. That seems like a good idea as long as you don't have to
swap router motors. Decisions Decisions.

>>
>> Standards are so great that everyone has one.

Yeah!

On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 11:30:02 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>Answering both here. I only saw DerbyDad's reply. See below.
>
>
>On 7/15/2022 11:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 11:33:31 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 17:43:54 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Sooooooo about 22 years ago I bought a Bench Dog cabinet, and Pro fence.
>>>> Then added 2 drawers to the cabinet.
>>>>
>>>> 3 years later I hung a Triton router under the top and that has been
>>>> adequate..... ....
>>>>
>>>> I want a new router lift and plan to put my Bosch 1617 EVS router in the
>>>> lift.
>>>>
>>>> Bench Dog used a 8.25 x 11.75 opening. On a side note so does Rockler.
>>>> The normal size is 9.25 x 11.75. All in inches.
>>>>
>>>> Apparently JessEm makes the best router lift. AND they make router
>>>> lifts for Rockler and Incra. And JessEm makes the lift in both sizes.
>>>> If going with the JessEm lift I would go with the Mast-R-Lift. The
>>>> Incra Mast-R-Lift comes in both sizes too but you can only buy the Incra
>>>> 8.25 lift at Rockler. Go figger. The Incra comes with steel insert
>>>> rings, multiple sizes to close the gap around the bit. The JessEm uses
>>>> plastic rings in multiple sizes.
>>>>
>>>> My Bench Dog table sags so I will likely get a new phenolic top or cast
>>>> iron. And of course that will likely require a new fence. One thing
>>>> leads to another. AND Jessem offers the Mast-R- Lift permanently
>>>> attached to a phenolic top. The top is not removable and has a hand
>>>> crank on the side. And the hand crank operates as a speed quadruple
>>>> that of the regular Mast-r-Lift, 1/8" vs 1/32" per revolution of the
>>>> hand crank/wheel.
>>>>
>>>> The all in one mentioned above does not have the dial to show how many
>>>> "thousandths" you have adjusted, you have to buy a digital Wixey style
>>>> meter for that.
>>>>
>>>> The Woodpecker lift looks sexy but you use a spring loaded plunger to
>>>> mover the router up and down in coarse increments, when you stop pushing
>>>> or lifting the router stops. Then you spin a thumb wheel to turn the
>>>> indicator dial and to fine tune the bit height. That takes several
>>>> pushes of the wheel to move 1/32" If you coarse adjust to with in 1/2"
>>>> of where you want to be you might have to push that thumb wheel 48
>>>> times. You can only turn that thumb wheel about 1/6 of a revolution and
>>>> remember a single thumb wheel push might be only be 1/192".
>>>>
>>>> So! What to do!
>>>>
>>>> What do Y'all have in your shop? AND if you have any of the above
>>>> lifts/setups what have you found to be a pro or con.
>>>>
>>>> BOB bought the Incra Mast-r-Lift set up. AND IIRC he loves it.
>>> I'd definitely go with the plastic rings. They're easier on bits and I
>>> don't like shrapnel flying around the shop.
>
>Well that is what I thought. But apparently the metal rings are
>superior for dust collection, with their slotted openings around the
>center opening. And IIRC Incra is the only brand that uses the steel
>magnetic inserts. Rockler has aluminum inserts on some of their lifts.
>

Not sure why but aluminum wouldn't be all that bad. At least it's
soft enough carbide will cut it. Steel?

>>
>> I bought this set of rings from Woodpeckers. Since there is always
>> an open slot, I use it to hold the tool. I glued in 2 pieces wood to
>> support it so it stays with the rings and doesn't fall out.
>
>Cool Idea!
>
>
>
>>
>> I sent this picture to Woodpeckers, giving them permission to use
>> my idea, but so far they have not implemented it.
>
>Don't hold your breath. I sent a tip to Kreg for making easier to
>align mitered joints held together with pocket hole screws. My method
>creates a self aligning joint that prevents slipping during assembly.
>I got nothing from them.
>
>
>
>>
>> https://i.imgur.com/IaIxe1S.jpg
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I have the JessEM Mast-R-Lift II, I think (think it's the second
>>> version). I like it. Mine is 9-1/4 x 11-3/4.
>
>Looking at every one's lifts I think the Mast-R- Lift is the best set today.

I like JessEms stuff.
>>>
>>> There also seems to be a 9-1/32" x 12-3/32" and an older
>>> JessEm/X-acta lift is 11-3/4" x 14-3/4".
>
>So far I have only seen, for purchase today, 8.25" and 9.25" by 11.75".
> But then there is also the JessEm that is permanently attached to the
>phenolic top. That seems like a good idea as long as you don't have to
>swap router motors. Decisions Decisions.

The 9-1/32 x 12-3/32 "standard" is used in the MLCS tables, at least
according to their catalog.
>
>
>>>
>>> Standards are so great that everyone has one.
>
>
>Yeah!

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> So considering the Incra fence, you mention that it is "OK" as a
> router table fence. Besides the smaller opening, is there
> deflection? It seems the fence could wiggle only being supported in
> the middle.

I haven't had that problem, but it's no big deal to clamp the ends to
the table. I designed a 4" overhang just for clamping. The big reasons
for only "OK" are:

* small opening
* can't set infeed and outfeed separately
* lack of dust collection
* no support for vertical pieces

Obviously, these are all solved by the Wonder Fence. In my case, I
glued up some melamine to make a "tall fence" with a larger opening,
which clamps to the short fence. It's been sufficient for me so far.

> FWIW one of the hundreds of videos that I have watched one guy
> indicates that there is a warning to not use a drill to operate the
> lift. I really don't see that as a problem if you don't "gun it".

I am careful to run it in low gear so it doesn't exceed the rated RPM
limits.

> One more question, what router are you using in your table and do you
> spin large raised panel bits?

The big Porter Cable - PC7518. The biggest *common* bit I use is the
1.5" pattern bit, but I do have some larger lock miter bits. I've never
had a problem with those, but the PC7518 does have speed control so you
can run them slower.

On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 11:16:30 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>First off THANK YOU!
>
>I have been eyeing the Incra fence, like yours too. You router lift
>looks similar to the competition. The latest version appears to be
>crude compared to yours. I really dont like that thumb wheel for
>adjustments, minor adjustments yes, an adjustment of 1/16" or more, NO!
>
>As I think I have stated I have the Bench Dog cabinet now and don't want
>to reinvent the wheel and buy/build another. But YOUR set up really
>looks like a better setup especially with the storage you have under the
>top. And if the fence removes easily yet another good sized work surface.
>
>So considering the Incra fence, you mention that it is "OK" as a router
>table fence. Besides the smaller opening, is there deflection? It
>seems the fence could wiggle only being supported in the middle.
>
>FWIW one of the hundreds of videos that I have watched one guy indicates
>that there is a warning to not use a drill to operate the lift. I
>really don't see that as a problem if you don't "gun it".

I saw a video recently that used an Amazon special gear-motor and a
coupling to raise/lower a drill press table. The idea was to get the
crank away from the top (Woodpeckers has a simpler solution). Perhaps
steal that for a router lift?

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xYUrXyPnzA>

There are others but this looked to be the best.

>One more question, what router are you using in your table and do you
>spin large raised panel bits? I am thinking about switching to my
>Bosch 1617 EVS for the router table but I do have raised panel bits that
>I current spin with the big Triton router that is under there now. I
>want to get away from the Triton. It is a Jack of all trades, but
>really not a master of any. The Bosch has a more finely tuned motor
>and collet.
>
>
>Thank you again for your input.
>
>
>On 7/15/2022 10:22 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>>> What do Y'all have in your shop? AND if you have any of the above
>>> lifts/setups what have you found to be a pro or con.
>>
>> I have the original Woodpeckers lift, an Incra Ultra 16 fence, and a
>> custom cabinet:
>>
>> http://www.delorie.com/wood/projects/router/
>>
>> Some thoughts, pros, and cons:
>>
>> I like that I can set the lift to within 0.001", likewise the fence.
>> "But wood moves" you say. Not THAT fast, and dialing in (literally)
>> decorative dovetails is trivial and precise. However, it's a lot of
>> dialing. I have a setup where I can use a cordless drill to turn it,
>> and sometimes I have to disassemble the mechanism and clean it else it
>> gets harder and harder to turn.
>>
>> The fence works great for positioning, but only OK as a router fence. I
>> have a couple of wooden adapters that clamp to it, as the opening is too
>> small for some routing operations. I wanted the Wonder Fence but
>> couldn't afford it back then; I should have just gotten it. Maybe I'll
>> upgrade yet.
>>
>> The cabinet itself has done its job very well, and remains flat on top.
>> I used two layers of plywood with a formica laminate top. Section
>> dividers support the top as well as the various drawers. Having a large
>> working top with the fence set up like a table saw has worked out just
>> fine, and I can easily remove the fence system to have a bare top to
>> work with, such as for rounding over large parts.

On 7/16/2022 8:50 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 11:30:02 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> Answering both here. I only saw DerbyDad's reply. See below.
>>
>>
>> On 7/15/2022 11:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 11:33:31 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 17:43:54 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Sooooooo about 22 years ago I bought a Bench Dog cabinet, and Pro fence.
>>>>> Then added 2 drawers to the cabinet.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3 years later I hung a Triton router under the top and that has been
>>>>> adequate..... ....
>>>>>
>>>>> I want a new router lift and plan to put my Bosch 1617 EVS router in the
>>>>> lift.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bench Dog used a 8.25 x 11.75 opening. On a side note so does Rockler.
>>>>> The normal size is 9.25 x 11.75. All in inches.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apparently JessEm makes the best router lift. AND they make router
>>>>> lifts for Rockler and Incra. And JessEm makes the lift in both sizes.
>>>>> If going with the JessEm lift I would go with the Mast-R-Lift. The
>>>>> Incra Mast-R-Lift comes in both sizes too but you can only buy the Incra
>>>>> 8.25 lift at Rockler. Go figger. The Incra comes with steel insert
>>>>> rings, multiple sizes to close the gap around the bit. The JessEm uses
>>>>> plastic rings in multiple sizes.
>>>>>
>>>>> My Bench Dog table sags so I will likely get a new phenolic top or cast
>>>>> iron. And of course that will likely require a new fence. One thing
>>>>> leads to another. AND Jessem offers the Mast-R- Lift permanently
>>>>> attached to a phenolic top. The top is not removable and has a hand
>>>>> crank on the side. And the hand crank operates as a speed quadruple
>>>>> that of the regular Mast-r-Lift, 1/8" vs 1/32" per revolution of the
>>>>> hand crank/wheel.
>>>>>
>>>>> The all in one mentioned above does not have the dial to show how many
>>>>> "thousandths" you have adjusted, you have to buy a digital Wixey style
>>>>> meter for that.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Woodpecker lift looks sexy but you use a spring loaded plunger to
>>>>> mover the router up and down in coarse increments, when you stop pushing
>>>>> or lifting the router stops. Then you spin a thumb wheel to turn the
>>>>> indicator dial and to fine tune the bit height. That takes several
>>>>> pushes of the wheel to move 1/32" If you coarse adjust to with in 1/2"
>>>>> of where you want to be you might have to push that thumb wheel 48
>>>>> times. You can only turn that thumb wheel about 1/6 of a revolution and
>>>>> remember a single thumb wheel push might be only be 1/192".
>>>>>
>>>>> So! What to do!
>>>>>
>>>>> What do Y'all have in your shop? AND if you have any of the above
>>>>> lifts/setups what have you found to be a pro or con.
>>>>>
>>>>> BOB bought the Incra Mast-r-Lift set up. AND IIRC he loves it.
>>>> I'd definitely go with the plastic rings. They're easier on bits and I
>>>> don't like shrapnel flying around the shop.
>>
>> Well that is what I thought. But apparently the metal rings are
>> superior for dust collection, with their slotted openings around the
>> center opening. And IIRC Incra is the only brand that uses the steel
>> magnetic inserts. Rockler has aluminum inserts on some of their lifts.
>>
>
> Not sure why but aluminum wouldn't be all that bad. At least it's
> soft enough carbide will cut it. Steel?
>
>>>
>>> I bought this set of rings from Woodpeckers. Since there is always
>>> an open slot, I use it to hold the tool. I glued in 2 pieces wood to
>>> support it so it stays with the rings and doesn't fall out.
>>
>> Cool Idea!
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I sent this picture to Woodpeckers, giving them permission to use
>>> my idea, but so far they have not implemented it.
>>
>> Don't hold your breath. I sent a tip to Kreg for making easier to
>> align mitered joints held together with pocket hole screws. My method
>> creates a self aligning joint that prevents slipping during assembly.
>> I got nothing from them.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> https://i.imgur.com/IaIxe1S.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have the JessEM Mast-R-Lift II, I think (think it's the second
>>>> version). I like it. Mine is 9-1/4 x 11-3/4.
>>
>> Looking at every one's lifts I think the Mast-R- Lift is the best set today.
>
> I like JessEms stuff.

Me too! FWIW the Incra Mast-R-Lift is built by JessEm. But has the
metal vs plastic rings.

BOB sent me video's yesterday showing how well the dust collection works
with the steel rings, that have air slots. Even cutting grooves out
away from the fence the dust collection was really good. Normally it
shoots out the end of the board.

I seldom cut grooves or dado's on the router table, I do that on the TS.

If I go with the steel rings I will likely add a 4" port to my RT
cabinet, which encloses the motor. That seems to be the way the better
dust collection works.

>>>>
>>>> There also seems to be a 9-1/32" x 12-3/32" and an older
>>>> JessEm/X-acta lift is 11-3/4" x 14-3/4".
>>
>> So far I have only seen, for purchase today, 8.25" and 9.25" by 11.75".
>> But then there is also the JessEm that is permanently attached to the
>> phenolic top. That seems like a good idea as long as you don't have to
>> swap router motors. Decisions Decisions.
>
> The 9-1/32 x 12-3/32 "standard" is used in the MLCS tables, at least
> according to their catalog.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> Standards are so great that everyone has one.
>>
>>
>> Yeah!

On 7/17/2022 1:27 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
>> So considering the Incra fence, you mention that it is "OK" as a
>> router table fence. Besides the smaller opening, is there
>> deflection? It seems the fence could wiggle only being supported in
>> the middle.
>
> I haven't had that problem, but it's no big deal to clamp the ends to
> the table. I designed a 4" overhang just for clamping. The big reasons
> for only "OK" are:

I suspect clamping would not be difficult but if cutting the DT's that
sounds like a lot of clamping and unclamping. BUT you have not had
that problem so I sure I am over thinking.

>
> * small opening
> * can't set infeed and outfeed separately
> * lack of dust collection
> * no support for vertical pieces

Yeah I would probably go all in. BUT I do have a Leigh DT jig so I
really don't need to have that function. And I have a Shaper Origin
that has built in software for cutting box joints on just about any size
imaginable. The board can be any width, you tell the Origin what the
width is and tell it how many pins on both sides of the joint and it
spaces the pins perfectly. And that is a relatively fast operation.
Because I sell most of my work and clients don't want to pay more for
DT's I don't use DT's that much. I do use box joints quite often though.
>
> Obviously, these are all solved by the Wonder Fence. In my case, I
> glued up some melamine to make a "tall fence" with a larger opening,
> which clamps to the short fence. It's been sufficient for me so far.

Good to know!
>
>> FWIW one of the hundreds of videos that I have watched one guy
>> indicates that there is a warning to not use a drill to operate the
>> lift. I really don't see that as a problem if you don't "gun it".
>
> I am careful to run it in low gear so it doesn't exceed the rated RPM
> limits.
>
>> One more question, what router are you using in your table and do you
>> spin large raised panel bits?
>
> The big Porter Cable - PC7518. The biggest *common* bit I use is the
> 1.5" pattern bit, but I do have some larger lock miter bits. I've never
> had a problem with those, but the PC7518 does have speed control so you
> can run them slower.

I'm looking at the big Milwaukee and or some of the no name brands sold
by each of the makers of router lifts. They are less expensive but are
only have the spindle/motor. The Milwaukee has a base.

My big Triton spins a couple of 3" raised panel bits, at very low speed.
It does a good job once I get the height set correctly.

BUT there is a lot of lash on the Triton so sneaking up on a precise
height is a hit and miss thing. Turning the "fine adjust" knob does not
immediately move the bit up or down and then it tends to jump. Too
much play in the whole tool I suspect.

Woodpeckers SpinRite seems to be thought out past just a router motor
with out a base. And I absolutely want a 2 wrench set up for the collet.

Thank you again for all the in site!!

On 7/17/2022 1:44 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 11:16:30 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> First off THANK YOU!
>>
>> I have been eyeing the Incra fence, like yours too. You router lift
>> looks similar to the competition. The latest version appears to be
>> crude compared to yours. I really dont like that thumb wheel for
>> adjustments, minor adjustments yes, an adjustment of 1/16" or more, NO!
>>
>> As I think I have stated I have the Bench Dog cabinet now and don't want
>> to reinvent the wheel and buy/build another. But YOUR set up really
>> looks like a better setup especially with the storage you have under the
>> top. And if the fence removes easily yet another good sized work surface.
>>
>> So considering the Incra fence, you mention that it is "OK" as a router
>> table fence. Besides the smaller opening, is there deflection? It
>> seems the fence could wiggle only being supported in the middle.
>>
>> FWIW one of the hundreds of videos that I have watched one guy indicates
>> that there is a warning to not use a drill to operate the lift. I
>> really don't see that as a problem if you don't "gun it".
>
> I saw a video recently that used an Amazon special gear-motor and a
> coupling to raise/lower a drill press table. The idea was to get the
> crank away from the top (Woodpeckers has a simpler solution). Perhaps
> steal that for a router lift?
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xYUrXyPnzA>
>
> There are others but this looked to be the best.

I saw that some time back. Pretty cool.

And MLCS has a motorized router lift.

https://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/powerlift_phenolic_blue_ultimate.html

On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 14:28:32 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/16/2022 8:50 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 11:30:02 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Answering both here. I only saw DerbyDad's reply. See below.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/15/2022 11:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 11:33:31 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 17:43:54 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Sooooooo about 22 years ago I bought a Bench Dog cabinet, and Pro fence.
>>>>>> Then added 2 drawers to the cabinet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3 years later I hung a Triton router under the top and that has been
>>>>>> adequate..... ....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I want a new router lift and plan to put my Bosch 1617 EVS router in the
>>>>>> lift.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bench Dog used a 8.25 x 11.75 opening. On a side note so does Rockler.
>>>>>> The normal size is 9.25 x 11.75. All in inches.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apparently JessEm makes the best router lift. AND they make router
>>>>>> lifts for Rockler and Incra. And JessEm makes the lift in both sizes.
>>>>>> If going with the JessEm lift I would go with the Mast-R-Lift. The
>>>>>> Incra Mast-R-Lift comes in both sizes too but you can only buy the Incra
>>>>>> 8.25 lift at Rockler. Go figger. The Incra comes with steel insert
>>>>>> rings, multiple sizes to close the gap around the bit. The JessEm uses
>>>>>> plastic rings in multiple sizes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My Bench Dog table sags so I will likely get a new phenolic top or cast
>>>>>> iron. And of course that will likely require a new fence. One thing
>>>>>> leads to another. AND Jessem offers the Mast-R- Lift permanently
>>>>>> attached to a phenolic top. The top is not removable and has a hand
>>>>>> crank on the side. And the hand crank operates as a speed quadruple
>>>>>> that of the regular Mast-r-Lift, 1/8" vs 1/32" per revolution of the
>>>>>> hand crank/wheel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The all in one mentioned above does not have the dial to show how many
>>>>>> "thousandths" you have adjusted, you have to buy a digital Wixey style
>>>>>> meter for that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Woodpecker lift looks sexy but you use a spring loaded plunger to
>>>>>> mover the router up and down in coarse increments, when you stop pushing
>>>>>> or lifting the router stops. Then you spin a thumb wheel to turn the
>>>>>> indicator dial and to fine tune the bit height. That takes several
>>>>>> pushes of the wheel to move 1/32" If you coarse adjust to with in 1/2"
>>>>>> of where you want to be you might have to push that thumb wheel 48
>>>>>> times. You can only turn that thumb wheel about 1/6 of a revolution and
>>>>>> remember a single thumb wheel push might be only be 1/192".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So! What to do!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do Y'all have in your shop? AND if you have any of the above
>>>>>> lifts/setups what have you found to be a pro or con.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BOB bought the Incra Mast-r-Lift set up. AND IIRC he loves it.
>>>>> I'd definitely go with the plastic rings. They're easier on bits and I
>>>>> don't like shrapnel flying around the shop.
>>>
>>> Well that is what I thought. But apparently the metal rings are
>>> superior for dust collection, with their slotted openings around the
>>> center opening. And IIRC Incra is the only brand that uses the steel
>>> magnetic inserts. Rockler has aluminum inserts on some of their lifts.
>>>
>>
>> Not sure why but aluminum wouldn't be all that bad. At least it's
>> soft enough carbide will cut it. Steel?
>>
>>>>
>>>> I bought this set of rings from Woodpeckers. Since there is always
>>>> an open slot, I use it to hold the tool. I glued in 2 pieces wood to
>>>> support it so it stays with the rings and doesn't fall out.
>>>
>>> Cool Idea!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I sent this picture to Woodpeckers, giving them permission to use
>>>> my idea, but so far they have not implemented it.
>>>
>>> Don't hold your breath. I sent a tip to Kreg for making easier to
>>> align mitered joints held together with pocket hole screws. My method
>>> creates a self aligning joint that prevents slipping during assembly.
>>> I got nothing from them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://i.imgur.com/IaIxe1S.jpg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have the JessEM Mast-R-Lift II, I think (think it's the second
>>>>> version). I like it. Mine is 9-1/4 x 11-3/4.
>>>
>>> Looking at every one's lifts I think the Mast-R- Lift is the best set today.
>>
>> I like JessEms stuff.
>
>Me too! FWIW the Incra Mast-R-Lift is built by JessEm. But has the
>metal vs plastic rings.

JessEM used to have aluminum rings, too, but changed to plastic about
ten years ago.
>
>BOB sent me video's yesterday showing how well the dust collection works
>with the steel rings, that have air slots. Even cutting grooves out
>away from the fence the dust collection was really good. Normally it
>shoots out the end of the board.
>
>I seldom cut grooves or dado's on the router table, I do that on the TS.

It depends on the geometry and mood. There are so many ways to do it,
I don't think any is best.
>
>If I go with the steel rings I will likely add a 4" port to my RT
>cabinet, which encloses the motor. That seems to be the way the better
>dust collection works.
It'll also keep the motor cool. A big advantage, IMO.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
> I suspect clamping would not be difficult but if cutting the DT's that
> sounds like a lot of clamping and unclamping. BUT you have not had
> that problem so I sure I am over thinking.

I've done all sorts of dovetails, from plain drawers to decorative
double half dovetails, and never clamped the fence for those. In fact,
I can't think of a time I ever needed to clamp it, I just remember that
I designed it that way.

> Yeah I would probably go all in. BUT I do have a Leigh DT jig so I
> really don't need to have that function.

I do too. The D4 is best for large, structural dovetails (like drawers)
where the Incra is better for small, decorative ones.

On 7/17/2022 8:57 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 14:28:32 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/16/2022 8:50 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 11:30:02 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Answering both here. I only saw DerbyDad's reply. See below.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/15/2022 11:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 11:33:31 PM UTC-4, k...@notreal.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 17:43:54 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Sooooooo about 22 years ago I bought a Bench Dog cabinet, and Pro fence.
>>>>>>> Then added 2 drawers to the cabinet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3 years later I hung a Triton router under the top and that has been
>>>>>>> adequate..... ....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I want a new router lift and plan to put my Bosch 1617 EVS router in the
>>>>>>> lift.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bench Dog used a 8.25 x 11.75 opening. On a side note so does Rockler.
>>>>>>> The normal size is 9.25 x 11.75. All in inches.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apparently JessEm makes the best router lift. AND they make router
>>>>>>> lifts for Rockler and Incra. And JessEm makes the lift in both sizes.
>>>>>>> If going with the JessEm lift I would go with the Mast-R-Lift. The
>>>>>>> Incra Mast-R-Lift comes in both sizes too but you can only buy the Incra
>>>>>>> 8.25 lift at Rockler. Go figger. The Incra comes with steel insert
>>>>>>> rings, multiple sizes to close the gap around the bit. The JessEm uses
>>>>>>> plastic rings in multiple sizes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My Bench Dog table sags so I will likely get a new phenolic top or cast
>>>>>>> iron. And of course that will likely require a new fence. One thing
>>>>>>> leads to another. AND Jessem offers the Mast-R- Lift permanently
>>>>>>> attached to a phenolic top. The top is not removable and has a hand
>>>>>>> crank on the side. And the hand crank operates as a speed quadruple
>>>>>>> that of the regular Mast-r-Lift, 1/8" vs 1/32" per revolution of the
>>>>>>> hand crank/wheel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The all in one mentioned above does not have the dial to show how many
>>>>>>> "thousandths" you have adjusted, you have to buy a digital Wixey style
>>>>>>> meter for that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Woodpecker lift looks sexy but you use a spring loaded plunger to
>>>>>>> mover the router up and down in coarse increments, when you stop pushing
>>>>>>> or lifting the router stops. Then you spin a thumb wheel to turn the
>>>>>>> indicator dial and to fine tune the bit height. That takes several
>>>>>>> pushes of the wheel to move 1/32" If you coarse adjust to with in 1/2"
>>>>>>> of where you want to be you might have to push that thumb wheel 48
>>>>>>> times. You can only turn that thumb wheel about 1/6 of a revolution and
>>>>>>> remember a single thumb wheel push might be only be 1/192".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So! What to do!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do Y'all have in your shop? AND if you have any of the above
>>>>>>> lifts/setups what have you found to be a pro or con.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BOB bought the Incra Mast-r-Lift set up. AND IIRC he loves it.
>>>>>> I'd definitely go with the plastic rings. They're easier on bits and I
>>>>>> don't like shrapnel flying around the shop.
>>>>
>>>> Well that is what I thought. But apparently the metal rings are
>>>> superior for dust collection, with their slotted openings around the
>>>> center opening. And IIRC Incra is the only brand that uses the steel
>>>> magnetic inserts. Rockler has aluminum inserts on some of their lifts.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not sure why but aluminum wouldn't be all that bad. At least it's
>>> soft enough carbide will cut it. Steel?
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I bought this set of rings from Woodpeckers. Since there is always
>>>>> an open slot, I use it to hold the tool. I glued in 2 pieces wood to
>>>>> support it so it stays with the rings and doesn't fall out.
>>>>
>>>> Cool Idea!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I sent this picture to Woodpeckers, giving them permission to use
>>>>> my idea, but so far they have not implemented it.
>>>>
>>>> Don't hold your breath. I sent a tip to Kreg for making easier to
>>>> align mitered joints held together with pocket hole screws. My method
>>>> creates a self aligning joint that prevents slipping during assembly.
>>>> I got nothing from them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://i.imgur.com/IaIxe1S.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have the JessEM Mast-R-Lift II, I think (think it's the second
>>>>>> version). I like it. Mine is 9-1/4 x 11-3/4.
>>>>
>>>> Looking at every one's lifts I think the Mast-R- Lift is the best set today.
>>>
>>> I like JessEms stuff.
>>
>> Me too! FWIW the Incra Mast-R-Lift is built by JessEm. But has the
>> metal vs plastic rings.
>
> JessEM used to have aluminum rings, too, but changed to plastic about
> ten years ago.
>>
>> BOB sent me video's yesterday showing how well the dust collection works
>> with the steel rings, that have air slots. Even cutting grooves out
>> away from the fence the dust collection was really good. Normally it
>> shoots out the end of the board.
>>
>> I seldom cut grooves or dado's on the router table, I do that on the TS.
>
> It depends on the geometry and mood. There are so many ways to do it,
> I don't think any is best.

Yeah. I cut a lot of dado's, rabbets, and grooves, especially on a
kitchen job. There are no mechanical fasteners on my cabinets, until
slides and hinges go on, and on a piece of furniture the front and back
face frames have grooves to accept the plywood carcass parts.

>>
>> If I go with the steel rings I will likely add a 4" port to my RT
>> cabinet, which encloses the motor. That seems to be the way the better
>> dust collection works.
>
> It'll also keep the motor cool. A big advantage, IMO.

Absolutely. Right now I only have the manifold on the fence. If U have
extended runs for cabinet doors I leave the cabinet doors open on the RT.