novaBBS - rec.games.backgammon - It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.

It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.

<444ab175-2070-44d7-89b0-749a110502f2n@googlegroups.com>

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=8189&group=rec.games.backgammon#8189

copy link Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon

X-Received: by 2002:ae9:df85:: with SMTP id t127mr1783867qkf.744.1644614354733;
Fri, 11 Feb 2022 13:19:14 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7cce:: with SMTP id r14mr317042otn.235.1644614354466;
Fri, 11 Feb 2022 13:19:14 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 13:19:14 -0800 (PST)
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=217.155.59.144; posting-account=X1j9wgoAAADLt4UnZrIneT3jwl9HvLMd
NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.155.59.144
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <444ab175-2070-44d7-89b0-749a110502f2n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 21:19:14 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

by: peps...@gmail.com - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 21:19 UTC

XGID=--aaBBBB------b-acbbDabB-A:0:0:1:00:3:6:3:0:10
X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon

Score is X:3 O:6. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O O O O | | O X O O X |
| O O O | | O X O X |
| O | | X |
| | | X |
| | X | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| X | | X X X |
| X | | X X X O O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 195 O: 136 X-O: 3-6
Cube: 1
X on roll, do you prefer X or O?

Do you prefer X or O here?
To clarify, I am talking about whether you prefer X's or O's position.
I'm not talking about the merits or demerits of being a bot, as
opposed to being me.

Paul

Re: It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.

<su8ppv$j3u$1@dont-email.me>

copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=8191&group=rec.games.backgammon#8191

copy link Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 12:12:29 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <su8ppv$j3u$1@dont-email.me>
References: <444ab175-2070-44d7-89b0-749a110502f2n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 17:12:31 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="160e1d929135d81252de4649ed144ded";
logging-data="19582"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+8V8HQ3BuUEtRnZC/ItE4iAk58huZylnE="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.5.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:mwNVnSSUIKuiT1Siglco2sdESsw=
In-Reply-To: <444ab175-2070-44d7-89b0-749a110502f2n@googlegroups.com>
Content-Language: en-US

by: Timothy Chow - Sat, 12 Feb 2022 17:12 UTC

On 2/11/2022 4:19 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> XGID=--aaBBBB------b-acbbDabB-A:0:0:1:00:3:6:3:0:10
> X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon
>
> Score is X:3 O:6. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | O O O O | | O X O O X |
> | O O O | | O X O X |
> | O | | X |
> | | | X |
> | | X | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | X | | X X X |
> | X | | X X X O O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 195 O: 136 X-O: 3-6
> Cube: 1
> X on roll, do you prefer X or O?

X's side is certainly more fun to play. I also think that X is an
equity favorite. Both sides are in some danger of crunching but I
think X's solid four-prime is stronger than O's prime, and O's
checkers on her 3pt are misplaced.

---
Tim Chow

Re: It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.

<6c98086d-49c7-4edd-af0d-a69a2042fdben@googlegroups.com>

copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=8196&group=rec.games.backgammon#8196

copy link Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon

X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4b2c:: with SMTP id s12mr2291106qvw.125.1644713978182;
Sat, 12 Feb 2022 16:59:38 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:13d5:: with SMTP id 21mr2337284oat.72.1644713977889;
Sat, 12 Feb 2022 16:59:37 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!1.us.feeder.erje.net!2.us.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 16:59:37 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <444ab175-2070-44d7-89b0-749a110502f2n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=71.222.45.238; posting-account=yTK5ugoAAACRs3TgAz02kMublhPpKQBJ
NNTP-Posting-Host: 71.222.45.238
References: <444ab175-2070-44d7-89b0-749a110502f2n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <6c98086d-49c7-4edd-af0d-a69a2042fdben@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.
From: bananabo...@gmail.com (Stick Rice)
Injection-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 00:59:38 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 31

by: Stick Rice - Sun, 13 Feb 2022 00:59 UTC

On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 4:19:15 PM UTC-5, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> XGID=--aaBBBB------b-acbbDabB-A:0:0:1:00:3:6:3:0:10
> X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon
>
> Score is X:3 O:6. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | O O O O | | O X O O X |
> | O O O | | O X O X |
> | O | | X |
> | | | X |
> | | X | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | X | | X X X |
> | X | | X X X O O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 195 O: 136 X-O: 3-6
> Cube: 1
> X on roll, do you prefer X or O?
>
> Do you prefer X or O here?
> To clarify, I am talking about whether you prefer X's or O's position.
> I'm not talking about the merits or demerits of being a bot, as
> opposed to being me.
>
> Paul

O, clearly.

Stick

Re: It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.

<a08d5c04-19e7-4c73-962d-16bf8e2c1258n@googlegroups.com>

copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=8197&group=rec.games.backgammon#8197

copy link Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon

X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1109:: with SMTP id e9mr6281435qty.290.1644750827609;
Sun, 13 Feb 2022 03:13:47 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4b0a:: with SMTP id q10mr3356043otf.345.1644750827337;
Sun, 13 Feb 2022 03:13:47 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 03:13:47 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <6c98086d-49c7-4edd-af0d-a69a2042fdben@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=217.155.59.144; posting-account=X1j9wgoAAADLt4UnZrIneT3jwl9HvLMd
NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.155.59.144
References: <444ab175-2070-44d7-89b0-749a110502f2n@googlegroups.com> <6c98086d-49c7-4edd-af0d-a69a2042fdben@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <a08d5c04-19e7-4c73-962d-16bf8e2c1258n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 11:13:47 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 45

by: peps...@gmail.com - Sun, 13 Feb 2022 11:13 UTC

On Sunday, February 13, 2022 at 12:59:38 AM UTC, Stick Rice wrote:
> On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 4:19:15 PM UTC-5, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > XGID=--aaBBBB------b-acbbDabB-A:0:0:1:00:3:6:3:0:10
> > X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon
> >
> > Score is X:3 O:6. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
> > +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> > | O O O O | | O X O O X |
> > | O O O | | O X O X |
> > | O | | X |
> > | | | X |
> > | | X | |
> > | |BAR| |
> > | | | |
> > | | | |
> > | | | |
> > | X | | X X X |
> > | X | | X X X O O |
> > +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> > Pip count X: 195 O: 136 X-O: 3-6
> > Cube: 1
> > X on roll, do you prefer X or O?
> >
> > Do you prefer X or O here?
> > To clarify, I am talking about whether you prefer X's or O's position.
> > I'm not talking about the merits or demerits of being a bot, as
> > opposed to being me.
> >
> > Paul
> O, clearly.
>
> Stick
I'll give you 66.7% on this one, Stick.
Yes, O is a favourite by approx 0.16 according to a rollout (which I didn't keep I'm afraid).
Yes, 0.16 is a clear margin -- it isn't close.
However, another interpretation of "clearly" is "obviously".
But this wasn't obvious to Tim or me -- I also (wrongly) thought that X was an equity favourite.
I guess it's a matter of experience -- knowing the ways each side wins or loses or gets gammoned,
and figuring out what happens overall.
With a lot of skill in this position, it might make a good prop against a non-expert if the non-expert is
invited to pick their own side -- they might well also pick X and give you 0.16 equity upfront.
If they pick O, play just one game. If they pick X, invite them to play again and again until they
show a preference for O.

Paul

One man tells a falsehood, a hundred repeat it as true.

interests / rec.games.backgammon / It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.

Subject	Author
It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.	peps...@gmail.com
Re: It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.	Timothy Chow
Re: It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.	Stick Rice
Re: It's a prop, Jim, but not as we know it.	peps...@gmail.com