Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

I'll see you... on the dark side of the moon... -- Pink Floyd


interests / rec.games.backgammon / Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertie

SubjectAuthor
* Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertiepeps...@gmail.com
`* Re: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict RobertieTimothy Chow
 `* Re: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertiepeps...@gmail.com
  `* Re: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertiepeps...@gmail.com
   `- Re: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict RobertieTimothy Chow

1
Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertie

<8d0bbdbd-144b-401a-9995-a786e2f3f395n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=8198&group=rec.games.backgammon#8198

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1348:: with SMTP id w8mr6615932qtk.216.1644751327483;
Sun, 13 Feb 2022 03:22:07 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:f06:: with SMTP id m6mr177881oiw.47.1644751327238;
Sun, 13 Feb 2022 03:22:07 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 03:22:07 -0800 (PST)
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=217.155.59.144; posting-account=X1j9wgoAAADLt4UnZrIneT3jwl9HvLMd
NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.155.59.144
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <8d0bbdbd-144b-401a-9995-a786e2f3f395n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertie
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 11:22:07 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 40
 by: peps...@gmail.com - Sun, 13 Feb 2022 11:22 UTC

Robertie has said that correct technique against an acepoint game is
to hit as many blots as you can. I also think XG follows this strategy
(as do I when I get the chance).
It would seem to follow that, in this position, my (relatively) good
rolls are the entering aces. If I'm happy dancing, then why hit me
in the first place?
So I am puzzled by the fact that entering made my positional evaluation
actually decrease -- from -1.608 to -1.626. I would expect a mild
increase.
How do you explain this conundrum?
(The answer is not that the surgeon was the patient's mother).

Paul

XGID=--B-B-D----abA---b-bbbbbBD:1:1:1:51:8:0:3:0X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon
:10

Score is X:8 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O | | O O O O O X |
| O | X | O O O O O X |
| | X | |
| | X | |
| | X | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | X |
| | | X | +---+
| O | | X X X | | 2 |
| O O | | X X X | +---+
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 197 O: 96 X-O: 8-0
Cube: 2, X own cube
X to play 51

1. 3-ply Bar/24 eq:-1.626
Player: 14.90% (G:0.07% B:0.01%)
Opponent: 85.10% (G:69.93% B:27.80%)

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10

Re: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertie

<sudml1$u90$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=8199&group=rec.games.backgammon#8199

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertie
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 08:49:19 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <sudml1$u90$1@dont-email.me>
References: <8d0bbdbd-144b-401a-9995-a786e2f3f395n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 13:49:21 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="682a6edee45746922cfb322f29d7d510";
logging-data="31008"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+E3bTUiQO2yJWRUryrcNcCkYc/8udi33Q="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.6.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:s84uE3VuOZ8T8WBRSPgO7THvUQ4=
In-Reply-To: <8d0bbdbd-144b-401a-9995-a786e2f3f395n@googlegroups.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Timothy Chow - Mon, 14 Feb 2022 13:49 UTC

On 2/13/2022 6:22 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> Robertie has said that correct technique against an acepoint game is
> to hit as many blots as you can. I also think XG follows this strategy
> (as do I when I get the chance).
> It would seem to follow that, in this position, my (relatively) good
> rolls are the entering aces. If I'm happy dancing, then why hit me
> in the first place?

Your opponent may be better off when you have 6 checkers back instead
of 5, regardless of whether your checkers are on the bar.

> So I am puzzled by the fact that entering made my positional evaluation
> actually decrease -- from -1.608 to -1.626. I would expect a mild
> increase.
> How do you explain this conundrum?

The equity difference doesn't look large. But your main winning chances
lie in an ace-point game. For that to work out as well as possible,
your timing needs to be right. Here, you certainly don't want to roll
snake eyes because that would ruin your timing. Entering one checker
shouldn't matter much, but apparently XG thinks it hurts your timing
slightly.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertie

<1198d397-9a43-4bbc-aa01-2f68635190f5n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=8202&group=rec.games.backgammon#8202

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:d81:: with SMTP id e1mr2250294qve.70.1644929704599;
Tue, 15 Feb 2022 04:55:04 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7cce:: with SMTP id r14mr1260602otn.235.1644929704349;
Tue, 15 Feb 2022 04:55:04 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 04:55:04 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <sudml1$u90$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=217.155.59.144; posting-account=X1j9wgoAAADLt4UnZrIneT3jwl9HvLMd
NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.155.59.144
References: <8d0bbdbd-144b-401a-9995-a786e2f3f395n@googlegroups.com> <sudml1$u90$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <1198d397-9a43-4bbc-aa01-2f68635190f5n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertie
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:55:04 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 28
 by: peps...@gmail.com - Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:55 UTC

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 1:49:23 PM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 2/13/2022 6:22 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Robertie has said that correct technique against an acepoint game is
> > to hit as many blots as you can. I also think XG follows this strategy
> > (as do I when I get the chance).
> > It would seem to follow that, in this position, my (relatively) good
> > rolls are the entering aces. If I'm happy dancing, then why hit me
> > in the first place?
> Your opponent may be better off when you have 6 checkers back instead
> of 5, regardless of whether your checkers are on the bar.
> > So I am puzzled by the fact that entering made my positional evaluation
> > actually decrease -- from -1.608 to -1.626. I would expect a mild
> > increase.
> > How do you explain this conundrum?
> The equity difference doesn't look large. But your main winning chances
> lie in an ace-point game. For that to work out as well as possible,
> your timing needs to be right. Here, you certainly don't want to roll
> snake eyes because that would ruin your timing. Entering one checker
> shouldn't matter much, but apparently XG thinks it hurts your timing
> slightly.

Thanks.
I don't rate the position as negatively as XG.
I'd like to do a prop based on receiving 1.6 x the cube value and playing X's position.
(I'd be happy if anyone wants to take me up on this, but I won't be putting up real money.
If it becomes clear, by actual play, that my suggested prop isn't good for the underdog, I'll
admit I was wrong.)

Paul

Re: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertie

<1e170dd8-fb49-45e7-93e8-b4caf11f07d9n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=8203&group=rec.games.backgammon#8203

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:44f:: with SMTP id o15mr2551547qtx.556.1644929953362;
Tue, 15 Feb 2022 04:59:13 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1d8f:: with SMTP id y15mr1251985oti.77.1644929953111;
Tue, 15 Feb 2022 04:59:13 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 04:59:12 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <1198d397-9a43-4bbc-aa01-2f68635190f5n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=217.155.59.144; posting-account=X1j9wgoAAADLt4UnZrIneT3jwl9HvLMd
NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.155.59.144
References: <8d0bbdbd-144b-401a-9995-a786e2f3f395n@googlegroups.com>
<sudml1$u90$1@dont-email.me> <1198d397-9a43-4bbc-aa01-2f68635190f5n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <1e170dd8-fb49-45e7-93e8-b4caf11f07d9n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertie
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:59:13 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: peps...@gmail.com - Tue, 15 Feb 2022 12:59 UTC

On Tuesday, February 15, 2022 at 12:55:05 PM UTC, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 1:49:23 PM UTC, Tim Chow wrote:
> > On 2/13/2022 6:22 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Robertie has said that correct technique against an acepoint game is
> > > to hit as many blots as you can. I also think XG follows this strategy
> > > (as do I when I get the chance).
> > > It would seem to follow that, in this position, my (relatively) good
> > > rolls are the entering aces. If I'm happy dancing, then why hit me
> > > in the first place?
> > Your opponent may be better off when you have 6 checkers back instead
> > of 5, regardless of whether your checkers are on the bar.
> > > So I am puzzled by the fact that entering made my positional evaluation
> > > actually decrease -- from -1.608 to -1.626. I would expect a mild
> > > increase.
> > > How do you explain this conundrum?
> > The equity difference doesn't look large. But your main winning chances
> > lie in an ace-point game. For that to work out as well as possible,
> > your timing needs to be right. Here, you certainly don't want to roll
> > snake eyes because that would ruin your timing. Entering one checker
> > shouldn't matter much, but apparently XG thinks it hurts your timing
> > slightly.
> Thanks.
> I don't rate the position as negatively as XG.
> I'd like to do a prop based on receiving 1.6 x the cube value and playing X's position.
> (I'd be happy if anyone wants to take me up on this, but I won't be putting up real money.
> If it becomes clear, by actual play, that my suggested prop isn't good for the underdog, I'll
> admit I was wrong.)

I think O's position is much harder to play, so I might have suggested a good practical prop even
if XG's eval is correct.

Paul

Re: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertie

<sugb5l$5tn$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=8204&group=rec.games.backgammon#8204

 copy link   Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Shock, horror! An XG assessment appears to contradict Robertie
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 08:51:46 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <sugb5l$5tn$1@dont-email.me>
References: <8d0bbdbd-144b-401a-9995-a786e2f3f395n@googlegroups.com>
<sudml1$u90$1@dont-email.me>
<1198d397-9a43-4bbc-aa01-2f68635190f5n@googlegroups.com>
<1e170dd8-fb49-45e7-93e8-b4caf11f07d9n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 13:51:49 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="0ef9be14c90fe908272848752f8f8a6a";
logging-data="6071"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19ZUrXY9Dc2KXQGsZfBWhuIheL9SByuk6w="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.6.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:8QmCmx7uzmViiu1163JNe3Oo8Cs=
In-Reply-To: <1e170dd8-fb49-45e7-93e8-b4caf11f07d9n@googlegroups.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Timothy Chow - Tue, 15 Feb 2022 13:51 UTC

On 2/15/2022 7:59 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> I think O's position is much harder to play, so I might have suggested a good practical prop even
> if XG's eval is correct.

O's position is certainly harder to play in the short term,
because X doesn't have any decisions. But in the games that
X wins, I think that X will have some challenging decisions,
e.g., deciding when to redouble, and making containment
checker plays.

---
Tim Chow

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor