On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, Jonathan wrote:
>
>
> "I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."
>
----
> 50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
> August 6, 1945
> >
> A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
> that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
> that day. >

Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
civilians in Japan. It was the Headquarters of
Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
to oppose the US.
About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
Many were doing their morning P.T. training
on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.

Try factual non fiction:

https://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461

Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire
– May 1, 2001
by Richard B. Frank

In a riveting narrative that includes information from newly
declassified documents, acclaimed historian Richard B. Frank gives a
scrupulously detailed explanation of the critical months leading up to
the dropping of the atomic bomb. Frank explains how American leaders
learned in the summer of 1945 that their alternate strategy to end the
war by invasion had been shattered by the massive Japanese buildup on
Kyushu, and that intercepted diplomatic documents also revealed the
dismal prospects of negotiation. Here also, for the first time, is a
comprehensive account of how Japan's leaders were willing to risk
complete annihilation to preserve the nation's existing order. Frank's
comprehensive account demolishes long-standing myths with the stark
realities of this great historical controversy.

On 8/6/2021 1:52 PM, a425couple wrote:
> On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, Jonathan wrote:
>>
>>
>> "I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."
>>
> ----
>> 50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
>> August 6, 1945
>> >
>> A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
>> that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
>> that day. >
>
> Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
> civilians in Japan.  It was the Headquarters of
> Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
> to oppose the US.
> About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
> Many were doing their morning P.T. training
> on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.
>

True, but that may be since we deliberately
avoided bombing Hiroshima before so we could
have a 'clean slate', an untouched city, to
properly gauge the effects of the bomb.

...brrrr

And less than 10% of the casualties were soldiers.

I understand that both sides benefited immensely
from an earlier end to the war, not just our
troops but the Japanese people being given
a humane govt. And that Russia was moving in
as well.

But it's difficult to justify carpet bombing
cities from a moral or legal view.

Was invading and occupying Japan really needed?

Their ability to project power was almost zero
by that point. And surrender might have come
anyways. Given a choice between surrendering
to Russia or the US I think Japan would have
chosen to surrender to us.

The idea the Japanese were all fanatics that
would fight to the last man is true to some
extent, but it's largely a myth.

The main reason most of the Pacific victories
against Japan ended with almost no prisoners
is because we generally wouldn't take prisoners
they were summarily executed if they surrendered
and...they knew it.

So why surrender? Hence the myth of fighting
to the last man out of...fanaticism.

Such was the hate for the Japanese after
Pearl Harbor it makes the post 9/11
Muslim hatred look like chump-change.

> Try factual non fiction:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461
>
> Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire
> – May 1, 2001
> by Richard B. Frank
>
> In a riveting narrative that includes information from newly
> declassified documents, acclaimed historian Richard B. Frank gives a
> scrupulously detailed explanation of the critical months leading up to
> the dropping of the atomic bomb. Frank explains how American leaders
> learned in the summer of 1945 that their alternate strategy to end the
> war by invasion had been shattered by the massive Japanese buildup on
> Kyushu, and that intercepted diplomatic documents also revealed the
> dismal prospects of negotiation. Here also, for the first time, is a
> comprehensive account of how Japan's leaders were willing to risk
> complete annihilation to preserve the nation's existing order. Frank's
> comprehensive account demolishes long-standing myths with the stark
> realities of this great historical controversy.

We only had to convince one person to surrender, the Emperor.

My dad flew B-24's in the Pacific theater and he told me
many of the soldiers he was around after the bomb
thought we should have dropped a couple off the
coast of Tokyo Bay, so the Emperor could see the
bomb with his own eyes.

We were able to build one or two bombs a month by then
so we had them to demonstrate.

They could have at least tried.

--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1

On 8/7/2021 7:06 AM, Jonathan wrote:
> On 8/6/2021 1:52 PM, a425couple wrote:
>> On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."
>>>
>> ----
>>> 50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
>>> August 6, 1945
>>> >
>>> A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
>>> that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
>>> that day. >
>>
>> Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
>> civilians in Japan.  It was the Headquarters of
>> Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
>> to oppose the US.
>> About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
>> Many were doing their morning P.T. training
>> on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.
>>
>
> Was invading and occupying Japan really needed?
>

Yes, YES it was.
Demanding and getting Unconditional Surrender was
very important for the welfare of the world.

And it being soon was also very important.

Militarists had gotten the world into World War I
and caused about 20 MILLION deaths. That war
was ended with a Treaty, a negotiated truce,
that let later Miltiarists rearm, replenish, and
claim they were "stabbed in the back" and start
war again.

So, just 20 years later came World War II which
caused about 75 MILLION deaths.
The Japanese government was run by the military.
They were used to assassinating political opponents.
They even tried (and nearly succeeded) in capturing the
Emperor and continuing the war. They were very determined
to continue in power, keep their war won territory,
and continue their 'dream' of Japan.

It was absolutely necessary that they be rooted out
and the Japanese people be given a chance to
control their own fate, with assistance of Allied
and US leaders.

There is indeed evil in the world, and contrary to
your view, there have been times in the past
where leaders did the right thing.
FDR, POTUS Truman, Winston Churchill, Stalin,
and Charles de Gaulle were correct in demanding
Unconditional Surrender to stop the cycles of war.
If they were alive now, they would be very proud
that we have now gone 75 years without a world war.
You should be happy and rejoicing at that!

And yes, time was important. Japan had invaded and
their military brutally ruled Korea, Manchuria,
large portions of China, Hong Kong, Singapore,
Thailand, half of Burma, Thailand, French Indochina
(Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia), Malaya, Dutch East Indies.
Their rule was brutal and millions were starving.

"Each month that the war continued in 1945 would have
produced the deaths of upwards of 250,000 people,
mostly Asians but some westerners."

And going slow would have guaranteed the deaths
of about 100,000 American, British, and Dutch POWs.
Japan had decided to kill every one of them, rather than
ever free them. We certainly owed them better!

On 8/7/2021 7:06 AM, Jonathan wrote:
> On 8/6/2021 1:52 PM, a425couple wrote:
>> On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."
>>>
>> ----
>>> 50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
>>> August 6, 1945
>>> >
>>> A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
>>> that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
>>> that day. >
>>
>> Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
>> civilians in Japan.  It was the Headquarters of
>> Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
>> to oppose the US.
>> About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
>> Many were doing their morning P.T. training
>> on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.
>>
>
> But it's difficult to justify carpet bombing
> cities from a moral or legal view.
>
Where in the world do you get your view of
what's "Legal"?
Do you study the lint in your belly button,
and decide that what you think is 'bad' ought
to be against the law?
That is not how laws, or treaties, are made.

Sounds like you are an ageist and sexist MF
who thinks the only people to die in wars should
be 18 to 25 year olds and their military leaders.

You want to protect the political leaders, the
civic leaders, the teachers who urge their youth
to defend their fatherland, the factory owners
who produce rifles, the plane designers who make
better fighters and bombers. the aircraft builders,
the bolt makers, the ship makers, and the atomic
scientists in Germany and Japan that were trying to
beat the US to the A-bomb.

Well, I'm glad our "carpet bombing" of Tokyo ruined
Japan's A-bomb project.

On 8/7/2021 7:06 AM, Jonathan wrote:
> On 8/6/2021 1:52 PM, a425couple wrote:
>> On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."
>>>
>> ----
>>> 50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
>>> August 6, 1945
>>> >
>>> A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
>>> that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
>>> that day. >
>>
>> Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
>> civilians in Japan.  It was the Headquarters of
>> Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
>> to oppose the US.
>> About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
>> Many were doing their morning P.T. training
>> on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.
>>

-------
Many of the things you say are from very old,
and now proven incorrect sources.

> And less than 10% of the casualties were soldiers.
>
Where in the world did you get that information from?

from Frank, page 267,
"Little Boy caught thousands of soldiers doing morning
calisthenics, It totally flattened the headquarters
of the Second General Army at Hiroshima Castle, and a
intercepted message later disclosed that the entire army staff,
from Field Marshall Hata on down had been injured. The
bomb killed the commander of the Fifty-ninth Army,
Lieutenant General Yoji Fujii, whose "burnt sword was
found alongside his charred remains."

Again, try modern well researched books.
They beat the speculation that was written
decades ago when the facts were classified.
We now KNOW what was being said around the
War Cabinet and the Emperor.

>> Try factual non fiction:
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461
>>
>> Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire
>> – May 1, 2001
>> by Richard B. Frank
>>
>> In a riveting narrative that includes information from newly
>> declassified documents, acclaimed historian Richard B. Frank gives a
>> scrupulously detailed explanation of the critical months leading up to
>> the dropping of the atomic bomb. Frank explains how American leaders
>> learned in the summer of 1945 that their alternate strategy to end the
>> war by invasion had been shattered by the massive Japanese buildup on
>> Kyushu, and that intercepted diplomatic documents also revealed the
>> dismal prospects of negotiation. Here also, for the first time, is a
>> comprehensive account of how Japan's leaders were willing to risk
>> complete annihilation to preserve the nation's existing order. Frank's
>> comprehensive account demolishes long-standing myths with the stark
>> realities of this great historical controversy.
>

On 8/10/2021 1:17 PM, a425couple wrote:
> On 8/7/2021 7:06 AM, Jonathan wrote:
>> On 8/6/2021 1:52 PM, a425couple wrote:
>>> On 8/6/2021 8:17 AM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "I heard a voice shout, "A parachute is coming down..."
>>>>
>>> ----
>>>> 50 eyewitness accounts from Hiroshima
>>>> August 6, 1945
>>>> >
>>>> A little discussed fact of the Hiroshima bombing is
>>>> that there were two B-29's that flew over the city
>>>> that day. >
>>>
>>> Hiroshima had the highest density of servicemen to
>>> civilians in Japan.  It was the Headquarters of
>>> Field General Hata's Second General Army, built up
>>> to oppose the US.
>>> About 43,000 soldiers were in the city.
>>> Many were doing their morning P.T. training
>>> on the parade grounds when the bomb went off.
>>>
>
> -------
> Many of the things you say are from very old,
> and now proven incorrect sources.
>
>> And less than 10% of the casualties were soldiers.
>>
> Where in the world did you get that information from?
>

LAWFARE

NUCLEAR WEAPONS
Hiroshima and the Myths of Military Targets and Unconditional Surrender

"Although Hiroshima contained some military-related industrial
facilities—an army headquarters and troop-loading docks—the
vibrant city of over a quarter of a million men, women and
children was hardly “a military base.” Indeed, less than
10 percent of the individuals killed on Aug. 6, 1945,
were Japanese military personnel."
https://www.lawfareblog.com/hiroshima-and-myths-military-targets-and-unconditional-surrender

> from Frank, page 267,
> "Little Boy caught thousands of soldiers doing morning
> calisthenics,  It totally flattened the headquarters
> of the Second General Army at Hiroshima Castle, and a
> intercepted message later disclosed that the entire army staff,
> from Field Marshall Hata on down had been injured.  The
> bomb killed the commander of the Fifty-ninth Army,
> Lieutenant General Yoji Fujii, whose "burnt sword was
> found alongside his charred remains."
>
> Again, try modern well researched books.
> They beat the speculation that was written
> decades ago when the facts were classified.
> We now KNOW what was being said around the
> War Cabinet and the Emperor.
>
>>> Try factual non fiction:
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/0141001461
>>>
>>> Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire
>>> – May 1, 2001
>>> by Richard B. Frank
>>>
>>> In a riveting narrative that includes information from newly
>>> declassified documents, acclaimed historian Richard B. Frank gives a
>>> scrupulously detailed explanation of the critical months leading up
>>> to the dropping of the atomic bomb. Frank explains how American
>>> leaders learned in the summer of 1945 that their alternate strategy
>>> to end the war by invasion had been shattered by the massive Japanese
>>> buildup on Kyushu, and that intercepted diplomatic documents also
>>> revealed the dismal prospects of negotiation. Here also, for the
>>> first time, is a comprehensive account of how Japan's leaders were
>>> willing to risk complete annihilation to preserve the nation's
>>> existing order. Frank's comprehensive account demolishes
>>> long-standing myths with the stark realities of this great historical
>>> controversy.
>>
>

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie