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interests / soc.history.war.misc / from a Quora - Albigensian Crusade atrocities

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from a Quora - Albigensian Crusade atrocities

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From: a425cou...@hotmail.com (a425couple)
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval,soc.history.war.misc
Subject: from a Quora - Albigensian Crusade atrocities
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2021 15:37:34 -0700
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 by: a425couple - Mon, 30 Aug 2021 22:37 UTC

Alex Mann
M.A in History & Latin (language), Ohio University (Graduated 2016)Thu

What are some historical atrocities most people don't know about?
Albigensian Crusade

When it comes to Crusades you likely think mostly about crusades in the
Middle East. Often forgotten are the European crusades- chiefly among
them the Albigensian Crusade.

Around Southern France, in the 1200s there was a sect of Christianity
called the Cathars. Cathars adhered to anti-materialism and preached
poverty and piety. Sadly for them, their teachings went against the
views of the church and this made them enemies.

From 1209 to 1215 there was a massive crusade aimed at destroying the
Cathars. Cathar territory was quickly taken and extreme acts of violence
were carried out against civilians.

In one famous case, the Papal Legate told the crusaders to kill every
man, woman, and child in a city even if they were Catholic because “god
will sort them out”.

In this crusade up to 1,000,000 Christians were slaughtered in a brutal
campaign of insane violence. It has been called genocide and truly is.
The goal was not land or some religious icon- the goal was to eradicate
and exterminate an entire group of people.

From 1209–1215 there was the first stage of the genocide was a
city-to-city slaughter. Then in 1216 when the “Crusade” ended the
Cathars revolted and re-took the region. This resulted in the Pope
calling for a new Crusade in 1217 and further conflict until 1225.

This resulted in moth Cathars being massacred however the remained were
driven underground. An inquisition was thus established in the region to
violently root out the remaining Cathars.

Women were raped by the tens of thousands, children were executed
on-site, and cities were destroyed. The entire population of Southern
France was targeted for extermination.

191K viewsView 4,833 upvotesView shares · Answer requested by
Evan Hastings
340 comments from
Alex Mann
and more

--------------------------

Alex Mann

Where am I getting 1,000,000?

Well, this number comes from a book written in 1901 called “A short
history of Christianity”.

Now the population of France at this time was around 12 million. The
population of this region was likely 1–2 million.

Keep in mind this was not 1 crusade. It was a brutal genocide, followed
by revolt, followed by another genocide, and finally an inquisition.
Then there is economic destabilization and localized famine resulting
from the confclit.

What is the real number? We have no idea. Modern scholars say it could
be 200,000 or 1,000,000- depends on who you ask.

I do think 1 million is within the realm of possibility and perhaps even
probably given this was a decades-long genocide.

Profile photo for Zack Lu
Zack Lu
Fri
Can we stop using the word “genocide” when it doesn’t apply at all?
Alex, given your knowledge base, I think we’re well beyond the “mass
murder = genocide” meme, right?

Cathars weren’t an ethnicity, they weren’t even a religion. This is just
mundane sectarian violence. Happens fairly often with Christian and
Muslims, you know, religion with OCD tendencies.

Alex Mann
Fri
I think Genocide applies here- as do most historians.

“Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are
committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,
ethnic, racial, or religious group.”

This is the definition according to the UN and scholars.

This crusade was an attempt to eradicate the Cathars.

Profile photo for Zack Lu
Zack Lu
Sun
The UN definition is rubbish. It could be applied to literally every war
ever fought. The first word there is “national”, this means anytime one
nation kills citizens of another nation, it’s “genocide”, especially
with the caveat of “in part”. Can you think of a single war in the last
300 years that wouldn’t be considered “genocide” by this definition?

What makes genocide different is that it targets people based on
immutable characteristics, namely their DNA, their ethnicity. What do
you think the “geno” in “genocide” refers to?

Religious affiliation is not an immutable characteristic, it’s not in
your DNA. People convert all the time.

Profile photo for Alex Mann
Alex Mann
Sun
Incorrect. Very few wars have had to goal to eradicate an entire people.
In fact, I can’t really think of any. Typically conqust is the goal or
some economic incentive.

When the GOAL is to eradicate a group its genocide. It’s about intent
and steps taken.

The international definition is the definition held in the UN world
court where you can be charged with genocide.

Religious genocide is recognized as a form of genocide. These are the
facts- do what you will with them.

Zack Lu
Sun
Did you miss the “in part” by accident or are you pretending like it's
not there?

Profile photo for Alex Mann
Alex Mann
19h ago
Now an attempt to eradicate a population in part is still genocide.

Regardless- the goal was not to eradicate the Cathars “in part”. The
goal was the eradicate every single Cathar and they practically did.

If I start a war to kill all the White people in Alabama that is
genocide. Now I am not killing all white people- just the ones in Alabama.

Profile photo for Zack Lu
Zack Lu
16h ago
“Now an attempt to eradicate a population in part is still genocide.”

So… explain how not every war that every happened isn’t genocide then?
War and battle have the objective to eradicate a part of the enemy
population, no? Or were swords and guns designed to tickle and fire
strongly worded letters?

Profile photo for Alex Mann
Alex Mann
15h ago
Trying to kill soldiers is just a means to control a local area. The
intent is control of territory, not eradication.

No- the goal of war is almost never to eradicate the population and in
cases when it was- that was genocide.

Besides your original point was that the Cathar massacre was not
genocide- you relent here?

Profile photo for Zack Lu
Zack Lu
15h ago
“The intent is control of territory, not eradication.”

So… when WWI generals planned to win the war by “bleeding the enemy
white”, that was genocide then?

How about the Vietnam War when the American objective was to kill NLF
and NVA? Or any anti-insurgency operation for that matter?

My point is that your UN definition of genocide is bogus.

Genocide, with the word “geno” in the name is one and only one thing:
ethnic cleansing. Your ethnicity is immutable, you can’t convert from a
white person to a black person, but you can convert from Catharism to
literally any other religion.

And that’s why genocide is a grade about mass murder in the pyramid of
evil shit: it’s targeting people based on something over which they have
no control.

ght to grab land, grab control, increase tax taking, enhance influence,
degrade an opposing ruler, and similar. How would you increase your tax
revenue if you killed all potential new taxpayers? Only when wars
started to be faught around ideology, that's when some of them became
genocides. But really not many.
Profile photo for Adam Houck
Adam Houck
6h ago
In a situation like this, I think a good way to explain the difference
between a war and genocide to someone is to ask what happens when you
surrender.

Is a war, surrender means new rulers.

In genocide, surrender means you will be killed.

In a religious war, if you are given a chance to convert, it is still a
genocide since it is an attempt to exterminate a belief system on the
pain of death.

The only thing that I can find confusing is the cultural aspect of the
definition. For example, in the United States and Canada there was an
attempt to remove children from native families and make the native
culture die out by controlling the education of those children. Now,
this was not about exterminating the people (though many did die) but
making those people forget their history, language, religion and customs.

This is considered a genocide though sometimes it is hard to spot/define
when there is a lack of mass graves.

Profile photo for Nagy Zoli
Nagy Zoli
Sun
Bit of a pointless argument, as one should apply the period values and
rules when evaluating a historical event, to correctly grasp the
significance and consequences. Meaning it is wrong to apply a 1945
definition and law to a 1209 event, as it would 100% bring you to the
wrong conclusions.

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