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interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: Premature double, take

SubjectAuthor
* Premature double, takeAxel Reichert
+* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
|`- Re: Premature double, takeGrunty
`* Re: Premature double, takeSimon Woodhead
 +* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 |+* Re: Premature double, takeSimon Woodhead
 ||+* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 |||`- Re: Premature double, takeSimon Woodhead
 ||`* Re: Premature double, takeAxel Reichert
 || +* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |`* Re: Premature double, takeAxel Reichert
 || | +- Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || | `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |  `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |   `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |    `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |     `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |      `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |       `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |        `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |         `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |          `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |           `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |            `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |             `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |              +* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |              |`* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |              | `- Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |              `- Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 ||  `* Re: Premature double, takeAxel Reichert
 ||   `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 ||    `- Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 |+- Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 |`- Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 +* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 |+* Re: Premature double, takeSimon Woodhead
 ||+- Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 ||`* Re: Premature double, takeBradley K. Sherman
 || `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 ||  `* Re: Premature double, takeBradley K. Sherman
 ||   `- Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 |`- Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
  `- Re: Premature double, takeSimon Woodhead

Pages:12
Premature double, take

<878rs0c02t.fsf@axel-reichert.de>

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From: mai...@axel-reichert.de (Axel Reichert)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Premature double, take
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 22:03:38 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Axel Reichert - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 20:03 UTC

A has moved his checkers to a legal position for his roll, but is still
thinking about his move and the dice are still on the board. B is
getting impatient and doubles, A takes, and then insists to decide for a
different move before he picks up the dice. B insists that the checkers
be returned to the alternative position before she doubled.

How would you rule?

Best regards

Axel

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:19 UTC

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 9:03:40 PM UTC+1, Axel Reichert wrote:
> A has moved his checkers to a legal position for his roll, but is still
> thinking about his move and the dice are still on the board. B is
> getting impatient and doubles, A takes, and then insists to decide for a
> different move before he picks up the dice. B insists that the checkers
> be returned to the alternative position before she doubled.
>
> How would you rule?

The first thing to do is to look at the rules for the event concerned or for the backgammon organisation concerned.
Suppose then, that this particular matter has not been addressed and that I must refer to my (considerable)
common sense.
If B is arguing that A must both take and must not move the checkers, then B is being completely ridiculous.
B is acting like Mad Kate McMad, the winner of the Ms Madwoman competition.
In backgammon, you have the right to change your checker play while you have not picked up your dice.
Why on earth should B's premature doubling deprive A of this right???

B's cube was quite possibly made under the assumption that A's checker play would not change.
Now that A has the cube and has changed his checker play (or is considering changing his checker play), does B
have the right to change B's cube decision because it was made under a false assumption?
Well, no, because the responsibility for the false assumption lies with B. Furthermore, such a ruling would move the
game a considerable distance backwards because A's play might be dependent on the cube position. So if B can change
the cube back, A can change the play back.

To me, the situation is very clear. A is entitled to take immediately and A is perfectly titled to choose another checker play after taking.

But I'm not a TD.
So there's also the question: What's a TD to do?
The answer (or rather the Gruntyized answer) is that a teedeetoodoo is a tune that a lot of people sing in the bath.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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From: sim...@bglog.org (Simon Woodhead)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:01:11 +1000
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 by: Simon Woodhead - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 00:01 UTC

On 20/04/2022 6:03 am, Axel Reichert wrote:

> A has moved his checkers to a legal position for his roll, but is still
> thinking about his move and the dice are still on the board. B is
> getting impatient and doubles, A takes, and then insists to decide for a
> different move before he picks up the dice. B insists that the checkers
> be returned to the alternative position before she doubled.
>
> How would you rule?

Most rules require legal moves these days.
B has doubled prematurely and therefore it's an illegal "move".
The game is reset to before A moved the checkers, with the cube
centered.

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 22:10:16 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 02:10 UTC

On 4/19/2022 8:01 PM, Simon Woodhead wrote:
> On 20/04/2022 6:03 am, Axel Reichert wrote:
>
>> A has moved his checkers to a legal position for his roll, but is still
>> thinking about his move and the dice are still on the board. B is
>> getting impatient and doubles, A takes, and then insists to decide for a
>> different move before he picks up the dice. B insists that the checkers
>> be returned to the alternative position before she doubled.
>>
>> How would you rule?
>
> Most rules require legal moves these days.
> B has doubled prematurely and therefore it's an illegal "move".
> The game is reset to before A moved the checkers, with the cube
> centered.

My understanding is that "legal moves" generally refers to checker play
and not to doubling. For example, let's look at the USBGF rules.

https://usbgf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/rules.pdf

These state, "If a player touches the cube or makes any statement or
gesture that reasonably implies an intention to double, then they
must double at that time, or on their next turn if not yet legal.
Merely reaching for the cube does not by itself imply an intention
to double."

Therefore B is required to double. But that's not what's at stake
here, since B isn't trying to retract the double. The question is
whether A can change the move. The USBGF rules do also state, "While
testing a play, a moved checker should be offset above its intended
destination," which at first glance might seem to suggest that if A
has actually moved the checkers to a legal final position, then he
is no longer "testing" the move and is done with the play. But the
tournament ruling guide says that "should" indicates a best practice
and not a mandatory rule.

https://usbgf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/ruling-guide.pdf

So A is permitted to change his move and B is required to double.

It also stands to reason that since B is the one who intentionally
performed an illegal action, A should be the one who is given the
benefit of the doubt in any ruling. But A should also be alert to
the possibility that his current play is best, and that B is deviously
trying to manipulate him into playing something else. There's an old
(and unethical) trick in chess that when your opponent reaches for a
piece to make a good move, you triumphantly say (just before your
opponent touches the piece), "Aha! You touched it! You have to move
it!" Then after arguing for a while, you say, "Fine, whatever. Go
ahead. Move something else. See if I care."

An interesting question is whether one can come up with a position
in which the best move changes if you know ahead of time that your
opponent is going to incorrectly double. Seems like there must be
examples but I can't think of one offhand.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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From: sim...@bglog.org (Simon Woodhead)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 12:30:31 +1000
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Simon Woodhead - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 02:30 UTC

On 20/04/2022 12:10 pm, Timothy Chow wrote:

> My understanding is that "legal moves" generally refers to checker play
> and not to doubling.  For example, let's look at the USBGF rules.
>
> https://usbgf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/rules.pdf

The US rules are lacking :-)

The WBGF rules cover this issue clearly and sensibly.
https://wbgf.info/tournaments/rules

4.4(v):

"PREMATURE ACTION – If a player doubles before the end of the opponent’s
turn, the double stands if it is otherwise valid. The opponent is then
entitled to finish his turn knowing that the opponent will be doubling."

which is better than my description, because it allows the wronged
player to effectively penalise the player who's cubed out of turn.

Besides, in this case, it's a first roll cube, so presumably post-
Crawford, the only time one expects a first-roll cube.

The touch cube rule is a whole different can of worms. Most federations
(to my limited knowledge) have rejected the touch cube rule for causing
more problems than it solves.

End of Turn is clear too:

4.1(vi):
"END OF TURN
(a) In matches played without using a game clock a player ends his turn
by lifting either or both of his dice.
(b) In matches played using a game clock a player ends his turn by
activating his opponent’s time. If his opponent is not able to make
a valid move or offer a valid double, the player must still end his
turn by activating his opponent’s time and wait for his opponent to
activate the player’s time."

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 22:46:59 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 02:46 UTC

On 4/19/2022 10:10 PM, I wrote:
> An interesting question is whether one can come up with a position
> in which the best move changes if you know ahead of time that your
> opponent is going to incorrectly double.  Seems like there must be
> examples but I can't think of one offhand.

Okay, I found a position in "Backgammon Funfair" that fits the bill,
except that it only seems to work for money with the cube centered.

XGID=-ACB-A----------------aac-:0:0:1:22:0:0:0:0:10

X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| | | O O O |
| | | O |
| | | O |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | X |
| | | X X |
| | | X X X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 18 O: 8 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 22

Here, A is thinking about how to play the 22 he has just rolled. He
plays 2/off(3) and then thinks about the final 2, tentatively playing
3/1. This happens to be the correct play. B impatiently redoubles,
which also happens to be correct, assuming A plays 3/1 2/off(3).

XGID=-B-A-A----------------aac-:0:0:-1:00:0:0:0:0:10

X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
| | | O O O |
| | | O |
| | | O |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | X |
| | | X X X |
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
Pip count X: 10 O: 8 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
O on roll, cube action

Analyzed in Rollout
No double
Player Winning Chances: 55.87% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
Opponent Winning Chances: 44.13% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
Double/Take
Player Winning Chances: 55.75% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
Opponent Winning Chances: 44.25% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)

Cubeful Equities:
No double: +0.1800 (-0.0003)
Double/Take: +0.1803
Double/Pass: +1.0000 (+0.8197)

Best Cube action: Double / Take

Rollout:
1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves and cube decisions: XG Roller++
Search interval: Gigantic
Confidence No Double: ±0.0000 (+0.1800..+0.1800)
Confidence Double: ±0.0000 (+0.1803..+0.1803)

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

However, now that A knows B is committed to doubling, it turns
out to be better for A to play 5/3 2/off(3). If B doubles then
her equity is only +0.1799 instead of +0.1803.

XGID=-A-C------------------aac-:0:0:-1:00:0:0:0:0:10

X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
| | | O O O |
| | | O |
| | | O |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | X |
| | | X |
| | | X X |
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
Pip count X: 10 O: 8 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
O on roll, cube action

Analyzed in Rollout
No double
Player Winning Chances: 55.79% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
Opponent Winning Chances: 44.21% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
Double/Take
Player Winning Chances: 55.79% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)
Opponent Winning Chances: 44.21% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)

Cubeful Equities:
No double: +0.1935
Double/Take: +0.1799 (-0.0136)
Double/Pass: +1.0000 (+0.8065)

Best Cube action: No double / Take
Percentage of wrong pass needed to make the double decision right: 1.6%

Rollout:
1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves and cube decisions: XG Roller++
Search interval: Gigantic
Confidence No Double: ±0.0000 (+0.1935..+0.1935)
Confidence Double: ±0.0000 (+0.1799..+0.1799)

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

Now that we know that this sort of thing is possible, it should be
possible to find examples from match play with the cube in a
realistic location.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 22:55:45 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 02:55 UTC

On 4/19/2022 10:30 PM, Simon Woodhead wrote:
> The US rules are lacking :-)
>
> The WBGF rules cover this issue clearly and sensibly.
> https://wbgf.info/tournaments/rules
>
> 4.4(v):
>
> "PREMATURE ACTION – If a player doubles before the end of the opponent’s
> turn, the double stands if it is otherwise valid. The opponent is then
> entitled to finish his turn knowing that the opponent will be doubling."
>
> which is better than my description, because it allows the wronged
> player to effectively penalise the player who's cubed out of turn.

Okay, this is clearer than the U.S. rules, but it comes to the same
thing in the end, assuming my interpretation of the U.S. rules is right.

> Besides, in this case, it's a first roll cube, so presumably post-
> Crawford, the only time one expects a first-roll cube.

Axel didn't say anything about a first roll cube. Is there some context
that I'm unaware of?

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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From: sim...@bglog.org (Simon Woodhead)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:04:12 +1000
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 by: Simon Woodhead - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 03:04 UTC

On 20/04/2022 12:55 pm, Timothy Chow wrote:

>> Besides, in this case, it's a first roll cube, so presumably post-
>> Crawford, the only time one expects a first-roll cube.
>
> Axel didn't say anything about a first roll cube.  Is there some context
> that I'm unaware of?

My mistake, I misread his original message.

Re: Premature double, take

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From: mai...@axel-reichert.de (Axel Reichert)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 09:00:03 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Axel Reichert - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 07:00 UTC

Simon Woodhead <simon@bglog.org> writes:

> The WBGF rules cover this issue clearly and sensibly.
> https://wbgf.info/tournaments/rules

Thanks!

In our chouette we play according to (an abbreviated version of the)
European Backgammon Federation Rules:

http://eubgf.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Tournament-Rules-EUBGF-Feb16.pdf

This has:

PREMATURE ACTION - If a player doubles before the end of the
opponent’s turn, the double stands if it is otherwise valid. The
opponent is then entitled to finish his turn knowing that the opponent
will be doubling

So it is clear that the double stands. But both the WBGF and the EUBGF
rules do not clarify whether the take implicitly "finished" the move
(which I think is reasonable).

As for Tim's remark: No, the checkers were not moved with a "preliminary
distance" to the other checkers.

Best regards

Axel

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 07:26 UTC

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC+1, Simon Woodhead wrote:
> On 20/04/2022 6:03 am, Axel Reichert wrote:
>
> > A has moved his checkers to a legal position for his roll, but is still
> > thinking about his move and the dice are still on the board. B is
> > getting impatient and doubles, A takes, and then insists to decide for a
> > different move before he picks up the dice. B insists that the checkers
> > be returned to the alternative position before she doubled.
> >
> > How would you rule?
> Most rules require legal moves these days.
> B has doubled prematurely and therefore it's an illegal "move".
> The game is reset to before A moved the checkers, with the cube
> centered.

Although I came to a different decision, I actually like this way of thinking.
And I think Simon has TD experience so he would know better than me.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 07:28 UTC

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC+1, Simon Woodhead wrote:
> On 20/04/2022 6:03 am, Axel Reichert wrote:
>
> > A has moved his checkers to a legal position for his roll, but is still
> > thinking about his move and the dice are still on the board. B is
> > getting impatient and doubles, A takes, and then insists to decide for a
> > different move before he picks up the dice. B insists that the checkers
> > be returned to the alternative position before she doubled.
> >
> > How would you rule?
> Most rules require legal moves these days.
> B has doubled prematurely and therefore it's an illegal "move".
> The game is reset to before A moved the checkers, with the cube
> centered.

Just a small technical correction to a misreading.
Not "with the cube centered" because no one said that the cube was previously centered.
You mean that the cube should be moved to its previous position.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 07:32 UTC

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:10:21 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 4/19/2022 8:01 PM, Simon Woodhead wrote:
> > On 20/04/2022 6:03 am, Axel Reichert wrote:
> >
> >> A has moved his checkers to a legal position for his roll, but is still
> >> thinking about his move and the dice are still on the board. B is
> >> getting impatient and doubles, A takes, and then insists to decide for a
> >> different move before he picks up the dice. B insists that the checkers
> >> be returned to the alternative position before she doubled.
> >>
> >> How would you rule?
> >
> > Most rules require legal moves these days.
> > B has doubled prematurely and therefore it's an illegal "move".
> > The game is reset to before A moved the checkers, with the cube
> > centered.
> My understanding is that "legal moves" generally refers to checker play
> and not to doubling. For example, let's look at the USBGF rules.
>
> https://usbgf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/rules.pdf
>
> These state, "If a player touches the cube or makes any statement or
> gesture that reasonably implies an intention to double, then they
> must double at that time, or on their next turn if not yet legal.
> Merely reaching for the cube does not by itself imply an intention
> to double."
>
> Therefore B is required to double. But that's not what's at stake
> here, since B isn't trying to retract the double. The question is
> whether A can change the move. The USBGF rules do also state, "While
> testing a play, a moved checker should be offset above its intended
> destination," which at first glance might seem to suggest that if A
> has actually moved the checkers to a legal final position, then he
> is no longer "testing" the move and is done with the play. But the
> tournament ruling guide says that "should" indicates a best practice
> and not a mandatory rule.
>
> https://usbgf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/ruling-guide.pdf
>
> So A is permitted to change his move and B is required to double.
>
> It also stands to reason that since B is the one who intentionally
> performed an illegal action, A should be the one who is given the
> benefit of the doubt in any ruling. But A should also be alert to
> the possibility that his current play is best, and that B is deviously
> trying to manipulate him into playing something else. There's an old
> (and unethical) trick in chess that when your opponent reaches for a
> piece to make a good move, you triumphantly say (just before your
> opponent touches the piece), "Aha! You touched it! You have to move
> it!" Then after arguing for a while, you say, "Fine, whatever. Go
> ahead. Move something else. See if I care."
>
> An interesting question is whether one can come up with a position
> in which the best move changes if you know ahead of time that your
> opponent is going to incorrectly double. Seems like there must be
> examples but I can't think of one offhand.

Robertie has such a position in Advanced Backgammon.
He has a position where the practical play is different from the theoretical play.
And the strength of the practical play is that it almost always induces a bad double.

Perhaps that's not exactly what you want because this isn't knowing that your opponent
will double, but knowing that your opponent will incorrectly double if you play X.

But pretty close to your ask.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 07:39 UTC

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 8:00:05 AM UTC+1, Axel Reichert wrote:
> Simon Woodhead <si...@bglog.org> writes:
>
> > The WBGF rules cover this issue clearly and sensibly.
> > https://wbgf.info/tournaments/rules
> Thanks!
>
> In our chouette we play according to (an abbreviated version of the)
> European Backgammon Federation Rules:
>
> http://eubgf.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Tournament-Rules-EUBGF-Feb16.pdf
>
> This has:
>
> PREMATURE ACTION - If a player doubles before the end of the
> opponent’s turn, the double stands if it is otherwise valid. The
> opponent is then entitled to finish his turn knowing that the opponent
> will be doubling
> So it is clear that the double stands. But both the WBGF and the EUBGF
> rules do not clarify whether the take implicitly "finished" the move
> (which I think is reasonable).

Ok, now I understand your question better. Before, it seemed obvious that
1) The double stands and 2) The play can be changed.
I disagree that it is reasonable to assume that the take finishes the move.
There are two clear signatures for when a move finishes.
1) You press the clock in a clock game.
2) You lift at least one of the dice off the surface in a non-clocked game.

Taking a cube is a completely different type of activity to the first two.
If we look at what seems "intuitively reasonable", then I would guess that, to
many with serious competitive experience of board games, it seems clear that
the move finishes as soon as the move is played on the board and the player's hands
have left the pieces (like in chess). But the rules say otherwise.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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From: sim...@bglog.org (Simon Woodhead)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 18:32:53 +1000
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 by: Simon Woodhead - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 08:32 UTC

On 20/04/2022 5:28 pm, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

> Just a small technical correction to a misreading.
> Not "with the cube centered" because no one said that the cube was previously centered.
> You mean that the cube should be moved to its previous position.

Yes, I misread the original post, thinking it was a new game.

Re: Premature double, take

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From: sim...@bglog.org (Simon Woodhead)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 18:42:43 +1000
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 by: Simon Woodhead - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 08:42 UTC

On 20/04/2022 5:26 pm, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

>> Most rules require legal moves these days.
>> B has doubled prematurely and therefore it's an illegal "move".
>> The game is reset to before A moved the checkers, with the cube
>> centered.
>
> Although I came to a different decision, I actually like this way of thinking.
> And I think Simon has TD experience so he would know better than me.

I am strongly against the touch cube rule where even reaching
for it constitutes a double. I believe the cube should be at
least in the hands of the cuber, and preferably placed on
the playing surface as it should be.

If someone claims that their opponent has waved at the cube in
such a way that the rules would consider it a double, and asks
for a ruling, what is a TeeDee ToDo? [sorry!] One player says
cube, the other says I was just scratching my head. I simply
don't allow it, the cube must be physically moved. Saves a lot
of potential silliness.

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 09:02 UTC

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 9:42:49 AM UTC+1, Simon Woodhead wrote:
> On 20/04/2022 5:26 pm, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> Most rules require legal moves these days.
> >> B has doubled prematurely and therefore it's an illegal "move".
> >> The game is reset to before A moved the checkers, with the cube
> >> centered.
> >
> > Although I came to a different decision, I actually like this way of thinking.
> > And I think Simon has TD experience so he would know better than me.
> I am strongly against the touch cube rule where even reaching
> for it constitutes a double. I believe the cube should be at
> least in the hands of the cuber, and preferably placed on
> the playing surface as it should be.
>
> If someone claims that their opponent has waved at the cube in
> such a way that the rules would consider it a double, and asks
> for a ruling, what is a TeeDee ToDo? [sorry!] One player says
> cube, the other says I was just scratching my head. I simply
> don't allow it, the cube must be physically moved. Saves a lot
> of potential silliness.

Thanks for your thoughts. When I first started playing tournament backgammon
in the US (around 1992 or so), I was told that the cube offer can't be retracted if the
player has touched the cube. Reaching for it was not considered enough (as you say).
This is basically equivalent to what you say as, in practice, touching the cube would be bound
to also physically move it.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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From: mai...@axel-reichert.de (Axel Reichert)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 11:49:25 +0200
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 by: Axel Reichert - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 09:49 UTC

"peps...@gmail.com" <pepstein5@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 8:00:05 AM UTC+1, Axel Reichert wrote:
>>
>> So it is clear that the double stands. But both the WBGF and the EUBGF
>> rules do not clarify whether the take implicitly "finished" the move
>> (which I think is reasonable).

[...]

> I disagree that it is reasonable to assume that the take finishes the move.

Well, the take is another premature action. Normally, premature actions
stand, but here the non-finished previous action (the move) occurs on
the same side as the premature action. Hence, it would be a bonus for
the take if he were allowed to change his move. This seems unfair, since
he has transgressed as well (by the premature take). To summarize, I see
the following solutions:

1. Double is void, take is void. Back to finishing the move. (Simon, at first)

2. Double stands. (WBGF, EUBGF)

a) Take stands and "condones" the move. (Axel)

b) Take is void. Back to finishing the move. (Paul?)

c) Double stands, take stands. Back to finishing the move.

I do not like 2c, feels too chaotic.

Best regards

Axel

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 10:44 UTC

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 10:49:27 AM UTC+1, Axel Reichert wrote:
> "peps...@gmail.com" <peps...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 8:00:05 AM UTC+1, Axel Reichert wrote:
> >>
> >> So it is clear that the double stands. But both the WBGF and the EUBGF
> >> rules do not clarify whether the take implicitly "finished" the move
> >> (which I think is reasonable).
> [...]
> > I disagree that it is reasonable to assume that the take finishes the move.
> Well, the take is another premature action. Normally, premature actions
> stand, but here the non-finished previous action (the move) occurs on
> the same side as the premature action. Hence, it would be a bonus for
> the take if he were allowed to change his move. This seems unfair, since
> he has transgressed as well (by the premature take). To summarize, I see
> the following solutions:
>
> 1. Double is void, take is void. Back to finishing the move. (Simon, at first)
>
> 2. Double stands. (WBGF, EUBGF)
>
> a) Take stands and "condones" the move. (Axel)
>
> b) Take is void. Back to finishing the move. (Paul?)
>
> c) Double stands, take stands. Back to finishing the move.
>
> I do not like 2c, feels too chaotic.

It's a much better question than I realised at first.
In technical matters, it often happens that questions are much more
interesting than they first seem.
When I was 15 or 16 years old (before there was any hint of a proof of Fermat's last theorem),
I explained the FLT hypothesis/theorem to a friend.
He replied that he thought that it was completely obvious that there are no solutions, and that
it's just basic O-level maths. (O-level maths was a syllabus in 1982 that was intended for approx
the top 25% 16 year olds in maths in the general population. The most complex topics were
probably quadratic equations, calculating the volume of a cylinder given the radius and height,
and calculating the area of trapeziums).

I notice your question mark but I don't see how you interpret anything I said as voiding the take.
I said this:
"To me, the situation is very clear. A is entitled to take immediately and A is perfectly titled [sic] to choose another checker play after taking."
Perhaps you misread "take immediately" for something like "retract taking"?

I agree with 2c and always have done. I don't completely agree with Simon, but it does also seem very reasonable, and I
would defer to his greater TD experience.

Regarding "feels too chaotic", the chaos has been created by the players. Simon straightens the chaos by going back to the situation
before the chaos happened (fine by me). Paul straightens the chaos by keeping all the finished actions, and ignoring the fact that
they weren't done using the best possible etiquette. (Since the dice haven't been picked up, there's no way the checker play is a finished action.)

I disagree with you that the take is a premature action. I don't think it's possible for a response to a premature action to be itself deemed premature;
the responsibility for the prematurity lies with the one who initiated the prematurity problem.
Given that a player has prematurely doubled and saddled the taker with a premature situation, it's perfectly reasonable for the taker to decide on the cube
action first and the checker play later. By taking first and moving later, the judgment is made that the take is correct regardless of which of the candidate plays is
decided on. This is a very common decision-making process in backgammon.

After further thought, I have found a way to see 2c as being correct. The situation does seem clear (and interesting) so even though I'm with 2c, I'm far from
being at sea.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 08:54:35 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 12:54 UTC

On 4/20/2022 3:00 AM, Axel Reichert wrote:
> PREMATURE ACTION - If a player doubles before the end of the
> opponent’s turn, the double stands if it is otherwise valid. The
> opponent is then entitled to finish his turn knowing that the opponent
> will be doubling
>
> So it is clear that the double stands. But both the WBGF and the EUBGF
> rules do not clarify whether the take implicitly "finished" the move
> (which I think is reasonable).

The rule talks about "finishing his turn." It seems clear to me that
"turn" refers to his *current* turn, not his *next* turn, which has not
come yet. If it referred to his *next* turn, it would be saying that
the opponent is entitled to take or pass knowing that there is a double,
and that's clearly not the intended meaning of that sentence.

So the question can only be whether the premature take, by finishing his
*next* turn, automatically finishes his *current* turn. This is not
directly addressed by the above rule, but surely some common sense
applies here. Ruling in B's favor would in effect condone the practice
of distracting your opponent with a premature double in order to trick
him into doing something about the cube that is now sitting on the
board, and thereby inadvertently committing to his checker play that
he is still thinking about. That makes no sense.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 09:03:23 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:03 UTC

On 4/20/2022 3:26 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC+1, Simon Woodhead wrote:
>> Most rules require legal moves these days.
>> B has doubled prematurely and therefore it's an illegal "move".
>> The game is reset to before A moved the checkers, with the cube
>> centered.
>
> Although I came to a different decision, I actually like this way of thinking.
> And I think Simon has TD experience so he would know better than me.

I think Simon has changed his mind after checking the rules.
Axel's scenario is that the clarity of B's (premature) double
is not in question; she didn't just "reach for the cube." If
it is undisputed that B intended to, and successfully, doubled,
then it's certainly an "illegal" action, but the rules make it
clear that this kind of illegal action is not simply nullified
without penalty. This is in contrast to a checker play that
fails to match the dice, which *is* nullified without penalty.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 09:05:21 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:05 UTC

On 4/20/2022 5:49 AM, Axel Reichert wrote:
> 2. Double stands. (WBGF, EUBGF)
>
> a) Take stands and "condones" the move. (Axel)
>
> b) Take is void. Back to finishing the move. (Paul?)
>
> c) Double stands, take stands. Back to finishing the move.
>
> I do not like 2c, feels too chaotic.

It's chaotic, but the chaos is B's fault. The ruling should not
reward B's transgression.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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From: bks...@panix.com (Bradley K. Sherman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:47:16 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Bradley K. Sherman - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:47 UTC

Simon Woodhead <simon@bglog.org> wrote:
>On 20/04/2022 5:26 pm, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> Most rules require legal moves these days.
>>> B has doubled prematurely and therefore it's an illegal "move".
>>> The game is reset to before A moved the checkers, with the cube
>>> centered.
>>
>> Although I came to a different decision, I actually like this way of thinking.
>> And I think Simon has TD experience so he would know better than me.
>
>I am strongly against the touch cube rule where even reaching
>for it constitutes a double. I believe the cube should be at
>least in the hands of the cuber, and preferably placed on
>the playing surface as it should be.
>
>If someone claims that their opponent has waved at the cube in
>such a way that the rules would consider it a double, and asks
>for a ruling, what is a TeeDee ToDo? [sorry!] One player says
>cube, the other says I was just scratching my head. I simply
>don't allow it, the cube must be physically moved. Saves a lot
>of potential silliness.
>

I was TD for over 100 small tournaments in the 70's and
I cannot recall ever having to adjudicate whether a cube
had been offered or not. We did not have a "reaching for
the cube constitutes a double" rule, but if we had, there
were certainly players who would have abused it.

--bks

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 15:52 UTC

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:47:17 PM UTC+1, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
> Simon Woodhead <si...@bglog.org> wrote:
> >On 20/04/2022 5:26 pm, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >>> Most rules require legal moves these days.
> >>> B has doubled prematurely and therefore it's an illegal "move".
> >>> The game is reset to before A moved the checkers, with the cube
> >>> centered.
> >>
> >> Although I came to a different decision, I actually like this way of thinking.
> >> And I think Simon has TD experience so he would know better than me.
> >
> >I am strongly against the touch cube rule where even reaching
> >for it constitutes a double. I believe the cube should be at
> >least in the hands of the cuber, and preferably placed on
> >the playing surface as it should be.
> >
> >If someone claims that their opponent has waved at the cube in
> >such a way that the rules would consider it a double, and asks
> >for a ruling, what is a TeeDee ToDo? [sorry!] One player says
> >cube, the other says I was just scratching my head. I simply
> >don't allow it, the cube must be physically moved. Saves a lot
> >of potential silliness.
> >
> I was TD for over 100 small tournaments in the 70's and
> I cannot recall ever having to adjudicate whether a cube
> had been offered or not. We did not have a "reaching for
> the cube constitutes a double" rule, but if we had, there
> were certainly players who would have abused it.
>
> --bks

I'm not in favour of the reaching rule either.
But the rule's absence can also be exploited.
A player can reach for the cube while scrutinizing the opponent's reaction
to dishonestly obtain the answer to the question "How would my opponent react to a cube offer?"

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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From: bks...@panix.com (Bradley K. Sherman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 16:05:44 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Bradley K. Sherman - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 16:05 UTC

peps...@gmail.com <pepstein5@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
>I'm not in favour of the reaching rule either.
>But the rule's absence can also be exploited.
>A player can reach for the cube while scrutinizing the opponent's reaction
>to dishonestly obtain the answer to the question "How would my opponent
>react to a cube offer?"
> ...

If a player says to the other, "I'm thinking of cubing you,"
that would not consitute an obligation to double, nor would
it be a violation of the rules. IMO.

--bks

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 17:29 UTC

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 2:05:25 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 4/20/2022 5:49 AM, Axel Reichert wrote:
> > 2. Double stands. (WBGF, EUBGF)
> >
> > a) Take stands and "condones" the move. (Axel)
> >
> > b) Take is void. Back to finishing the move. (Paul?)
> >
> > c) Double stands, take stands. Back to finishing the move.
> >
> > I do not like 2c, feels too chaotic.
> It's chaotic, but the chaos is B's fault. The ruling should not
> reward B's transgression.

There's an additional point to be made in favour of the 2c society.
Even though B has transgressed, we might not want to discourage B's behaviour
too much in the case of clockless games.
It's a common scenario where A knows that whatever A plays, the action is D/P.
However, A might be uncertain as to whether B will cube, and the optimal
checker play in the case of this forgetting might be a tricky and time-consuming problem.
Therefore, we might not want to encourage B from cubing prematurely, and thereby saving time,
as A no longer has to move the checkers. It's a particularly good idea to be lenient on this,
if an exterior organisation is hosting the event such as a bar or restaurant which has to close at
a fixed time.
So, if we accept a degree of tolerance of rulebreaker B, we can also accept that it's quite normal for A to
decide to take first, before deciding on the checker play.
At high-level events, I think that if there's an obvious D/P following A's dice, it's quite common for B to gesture towards
the cube to tell A that A doesn't have to worry over the checker play decision because B hasn't forgotten the cube and will D/P anyway.
For example, in an even race, Tim might roll 66, and I might roll 21, and the 21 might be tricky to play. For example, do I make a high
stack by 7/6 or do I fill in the 5 point gap with 6/5? So Tim points at the cube to tell me he hasn't forgotten so I don't need to worry about it.
Unfortunately, my hand is resting on the table near the centered cube, so when Tim points at it, I am confused and don't know what he's referring to.
I think he's referring to my watch so I say "What? We haven't put the clocks forward already have we? We don't do this in February."
Then Tim reminds me that it's actually already April.

Paul

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