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interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: Premature double, take

SubjectAuthor
* Premature double, takeAxel Reichert
+* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
|`- Re: Premature double, takeGrunty
`* Re: Premature double, takeSimon Woodhead
 +* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 |+* Re: Premature double, takeSimon Woodhead
 ||+* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 |||`- Re: Premature double, takeSimon Woodhead
 ||`* Re: Premature double, takeAxel Reichert
 || +* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |`* Re: Premature double, takeAxel Reichert
 || | +- Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || | `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |  `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |   `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |    `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |     `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |      `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |       `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |        `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |         `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |          `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |           `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |            `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |             `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |              +* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |              |`* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 || |              | `- Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || |              `- Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 || `* Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 ||  `* Re: Premature double, takeAxel Reichert
 ||   `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 ||    `- Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 |+- Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 |`- Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 +* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 |+* Re: Premature double, takeSimon Woodhead
 ||+- Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 ||`* Re: Premature double, takeBradley K. Sherman
 || `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
 ||  `* Re: Premature double, takeBradley K. Sherman
 ||   `- Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 |`- Re: Premature double, takeTimothy Chow
 `* Re: Premature double, takepeps...@gmail.com
  `- Re: Premature double, takeSimon Woodhead

Pages:12
Re: Premature double, take

<87tuanwtbc.fsf@axel-reichert.de>

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From: mai...@axel-reichert.de (Axel Reichert)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2022 19:36:23 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Axel Reichert - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 17:36 UTC

Timothy Chow <tchow12000@yahoo.com> writes:

> The rule talks about "finishing his turn." It seems clear to me that
> "turn" refers to his *current* turn, not his *next* turn, which has not
> come yet.

Very good point!

> So the question can only be whether the premature take, by finishing
> his *next* turn, automatically finishes his *current* turn. This is
> not directly addressed by the above rule, but surely some common sense
> applies here. Ruling in B's favor [...] makes no sense.

O. K., this is convincing for me. So it seems the consensus here boils
down to maximum punishment for the premature doubler "B": "A" may move
as he wished, and then still decide with a fresh mind on his take. I am
fine with this, because I find any premature actions extremely annoying.

Thanks for all the feedback!

Axel

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Wed, 20 Apr 2022 18:59 UTC

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 6:36:25 PM UTC+1, Axel Reichert wrote:
> Timothy Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > The rule talks about "finishing his turn." It seems clear to me that
> > "turn" refers to his *current* turn, not his *next* turn, which has not
> > come yet.
> Very good point!
> > So the question can only be whether the premature take, by finishing
> > his *next* turn, automatically finishes his *current* turn. This is
> > not directly addressed by the above rule, but surely some common sense
> > applies here. Ruling in B's favor [...] makes no sense.
>
> O. K., this is convincing for me. So it seems the consensus here boils
> down to maximum punishment for the premature doubler "B": "A" may move
> as he wished, and then still decide with a fresh mind on his take. I am
> fine with this, because I find any premature actions extremely annoying.
>
> Thanks for all the feedback!

No, I don't agree with you on what others have said. I think Tim and I are both
members of the 2c society. The double stands, the take stands, the checker play is in
process and can be changed.

So I don't think A can "decide with a fresh mind on his take", according to what anyone has said.
I don't agree that the premature action is necessarily wrong, and I tried to explain why earlier in the thread.
Suppose that it's a pure and even race, B rolls 66, and A rolls 21. A naturally wants to play the roll to
maximise EPC. This might be very tricky -- there might be a complex tradeoff between crossovers and gap filling.
If B doubles prematurely here, B is kindly sparing A the unnecessary problem because A will obviously pass anyway.
If B doesn't double prematurely, A might not realise that B hasn't forgotten the cube and intends to double.
So if we accept that a premature double is fine here, we can't be too strict against it in general.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 08:40:56 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 12:40 UTC

On 4/20/2022 1:29 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> Even though B has transgressed, we might not want to discourage B's behaviour
> too much in the case of clockless games.
> It's a common scenario where A knows that whatever A plays, the action is D/P.
> However, A might be uncertain as to whether B will cube, and the optimal
> checker play in the case of this forgetting might be a tricky and time-consuming problem.
> Therefore, we might not want to encourage B from cubing prematurely, and thereby saving time,
> as A no longer has to move the checkers. It's a particularly good idea to be lenient on this,
> if an exterior organisation is hosting the event such as a bar or restaurant which has to close at
> a fixed time.

I would say that if the tournament directors find this line of reasoning
persuasive, then they should write it into the rules, rather than write
the rules to say the opposite and then turn a blind eye. It's generally
not a good idea to encourage players to think that the rules don't
really mean what they say, and that the tournament directors may
deliberately choose not to enforce them if they have an economic
incentive.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 08:55:57 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 12:55 UTC

On 4/20/2022 2:59 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 6:36:25 PM UTC+1, Axel Reichert wrote:
>> O. K., this is convincing for me. So it seems the consensus here boils
>> down to maximum punishment for the premature doubler "B": "A" may move
>> as he wished, and then still decide with a fresh mind on his take. I am
>> fine with this, because I find any premature actions extremely annoying.
>>
>> Thanks for all the feedback!
>
> No, I don't agree with you on what others have said. I think Tim and I are both
> members of the 2c society. The double stands, the take stands, the checker play is in
> process and can be changed.

I'm not totally sure what I think about whether the take stands.
In a sense, the take is a premature action. True, it was prompted
by B's premature double, but A isn't obliged to either take or pass
immediately. He can say, "I'm not done. Please put the cube back."
If he takes, he's partially condoning the premature double. So I'm
inclined to say that the take stands, although I could be talked out
of it with a persuasive argument.

In practice, I suspect this will rarely come up, because I think it
will be rare that A will want to change his mind. What seems more
likely to me is that, assuming that B puts the cube on the board,
A might move silently the cube off the board because it's distracting,
and this might be interpreted as a take/pass decision. A might then
protest that he hadn't made up his mind yet. If A makes such a protest
and seems to be sincere, then I'd be inclined to allow A to either take
or pass, but if A admits that he took then I'd be inclined to have the
take stand.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 09:03:26 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 13:03 UTC

On 4/20/2022 12:05 PM, Bradley K. Sherman wrote:
> peps...@gmail.com <pepstein5@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...
>> I'm not in favour of the reaching rule either.
>> But the rule's absence can also be exploited.
>> A player can reach for the cube while scrutinizing the opponent's reaction
>> to dishonestly obtain the answer to the question "How would my opponent
>> react to a cube offer?"
>> ...
>
> If a player says to the other, "I'm thinking of cubing you,"
> that would not consitute an obligation to double, nor would
> it be a violation of the rules. IMO.

Even more simply, if I pause for a significant amount of time,
then it strongly suggests that I'm thinking of doubling, since
there aren't many other reasons for pausing for a long time
(maybe to convince myself that the opponent's checker play was
legal?).

In any case, if it's clearly stated in the rules that merely
reaching for the cube is not a commitment to double, then it's
the player's responsibility not to give anything away when the
opponent reaches for the cube. It's maybe poor sportsmanship
to intentionally try to elicit a reaction this way, but since
reaching for the cube and then changing one's mind is a common
and innocent action, I don't think it should be ruled out.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 14:29 UTC

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 1:41:01 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 4/20/2022 1:29 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Even though B has transgressed, we might not want to discourage B's behaviour
> > too much in the case of clockless games.
> > It's a common scenario where A knows that whatever A plays, the action is D/P.
> > However, A might be uncertain as to whether B will cube, and the optimal
> > checker play in the case of this forgetting might be a tricky and time-consuming problem.
> > Therefore, we might not want to encourage B from cubing prematurely, and thereby saving time,
> > as A no longer has to move the checkers. It's a particularly good idea to be lenient on this,
> > if an exterior organisation is hosting the event such as a bar or restaurant which has to close at
> > a fixed time.
> I would say that if the tournament directors find this line of reasoning
> persuasive, then they should write it into the rules, rather than write
> the rules to say the opposite and then turn a blind eye. It's generally
> not a good idea to encourage players to think that the rules don't
> really mean what they say, and that the tournament directors may
> deliberately choose not to enforce them if they have an economic
> incentive.

I don't think the reference to an "economic incentive" is your major point.
But I think that reference might indicate that you don't understand what I tried to say.
[Note the "tried to". It's very possible that you understood exactly what I said, and that
I'm at fault for not saying what I mean.]
I would think a common arrangement works like this:
1) The organisers of a backgammon event approach a bar or restaurant asking if they can
host a backgammon event. It's a mutually beneficial arrangement -- the bar/restaurant gets
customers, and the bg event gets a venue.

Now suppose that the event takes longer than expected and there's a risk of not being able to finish before
the restaurant closes.
In an even race, A rolls 66 and B rolls 21, A doubles prematurely while B is deciding on B's play.
The TD ignores this premature double.

How would the TD (or backgammon organisation) be reacting to an "economic incentive"?
It seems to be that the TD's incentive is to cooperate with the hosts -- the bar/restaurant.
But there wouldn't be a payment conditional on this cooperation so it's hard (for me) to understand
your "economic incentive" reference.

It is a very common situation in backgammon where every reasonable play leads to a D/P but
where the checker play matters in the event that the opponent forgets to cube.
How would you suggest that such situations be handled?
Perhaps the rules could mention that the player, who is waiting for the opponent's checker play,
has the option of pointing to the cube to make it clear that they haven't forgotten the cube?

It seems to me that players will do this type of pointing thing [or something like it] anyway whatever the rules say.
No one wants to wait around bored stiff, in a situation like that.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2022 20:45:28 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 00:45 UTC

On 4/21/2022 10:29 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> But there wouldn't be a payment conditional on this cooperation so it's hard (for me) to understand
> your "economic incentive" reference.

The TD often wants to host the next tournament in the same place.
Current behavior affects future economic transactions.

> It is a very common situation in backgammon where every reasonable play leads to a D/P but
> where the checker play matters in the event that the opponent forgets to cube.
> How would you suggest that such situations be handled?
> Perhaps the rules could mention that the player, who is waiting for the opponent's checker play,
> has the option of pointing to the cube to make it clear that they haven't forgotten the cube?

I have no specific suggestion. Your suggestion here may be
reasonable, although it's hard to say without testing it in
practice. All I'm saying is that I'm in favor of writing things
into the rules rather than turning a blind eye to direct violations
of the rules.

Not every situation can be foreseen, of course, so I'm not saying
that every possible situation has to be written into the rules.
But if a situation is foreseeable, then it's better to address it
explicitly rather than encourage violations of the rules.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Fri, 22 Apr 2022 07:35 UTC

On Friday, April 22, 2022 at 1:45:33 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 4/21/2022 10:29 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > But there wouldn't be a payment conditional on this cooperation so it's hard (for me) to understand
> > your "economic incentive" reference.
> The TD often wants to host the next tournament in the same place.
> Current behavior affects future economic transactions.

The economic framing is very strange (to me) because of its indirectness.
Yes, the TD might be a professional backgammon director (they do exist)
and might benefit financially from a good relationship with a host.
But the direct impact of speeding things along would be to finish the event on time
and make all parties (players, bar/restaurant staff etc) happy.

Here's an analogous example. Suppose you're at work, taking a coffee break,
and a colleague greets you and asks you about your name and hobbies.
The question could arise: Why did she approach you?
Possible answers could be that she wanted to get to know you better, or that she was
trying to be friendly, or trying to be pleasant.
Assuming her behaviour and attitude was conducive to good relations in the workplace,
we could say that the reason she was being friendly/polite/pleasant was economic --
such behaviour makes her more likely to be promoted and less likely to be fired.
But we wouldn't normally say "She was chatting for economic reasons."

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 16:15:24 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 20:15 UTC

On 4/22/2022 3:35 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> The economic framing is very strange (to me) because of its indirectness.
> Yes, the TD might be a professional backgammon director (they do exist)
> and might benefit financially from a good relationship with a host.
> But the direct impact of speeding things along would be to finish the event on time
> and make all parties (players, bar/restaurant staff etc) happy.

It doesn't make happy the player whose concentration has been
disturbed and who seeks recourse from the TD, only to find that
the rules he has been scrupulously trying to follow, sometimes to
his own disadvantage, don't apply to his opponent, because (he is
assured) his opponent was just "making everyone happy."

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 20:38 UTC

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 9:15:29 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 4/22/2022 3:35 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The economic framing is very strange (to me) because of its indirectness.
> > Yes, the TD might be a professional backgammon director (they do exist)
> > and might benefit financially from a good relationship with a host.
> > But the direct impact of speeding things along would be to finish the event on time
> > and make all parties (players, bar/restaurant staff etc) happy.
> It doesn't make happy the player whose concentration has been
> disturbed and who seeks recourse from the TD, only to find that
> the rules he has been scrupulously trying to follow, sometimes to
> his own disadvantage, don't apply to his opponent, because (he is
> assured) his opponent was just "making everyone happy."

Ok. If I can vary slightly from the original topic of the thread.
I'm actually pretty much a rule-follower myself, but take this related situation -- the
one I keep going on about.
It's an even race when someone gets an obviously winning lead by the 66 21 sequence.
While A ponders the 21, B points at the cube just to point out that B hasn't forgotten to double.
Is B breaking the rules?
Did B do the wrong thing?
I don't feel like asking whether B is obliged to double. Since B obviously would double, that
question seems irrelevant to me.

Thanks,

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 17:04:11 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 21:04 UTC

On 4/23/2022 4:38 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> It's an even race when someone gets an obviously winning lead by the 66 21 sequence.
> While A ponders the 21, B points at the cube just to point out that B hasn't forgotten to double.
> Is B breaking the rules?
> Did B do the wrong thing?
> I don't feel like asking whether B is obliged to double. Since B obviously would double, that
> question seems irrelevant to me.

B isn't breaking any rule that I'm aware of. At worst, A might
complain that B's action is unsportsmanlike, but I'd agree with
you that it seems pretty harmless, especially if B does in fact
double.

Now there could be a scenario where A interprets B's pointing
action as an indication that B will certainly double, and it
happens to be a position where if A makes a certain 'wrong'
move, then the 'wrong' move will be vindicated by B's subsequent
incorrect double. Suppose A gleefully makes the 'wrong' move,
but then B does not double. Suppose that B saw all this and
intentionally pointed at the cube in order to mislead A. Then
perhaps B could be accused of unsportsmanlike conduct. But
even in this case, I'm inclined to side with B.

In chess, there are certainly cases when players have offered a
draw in order to manipulate the opponent psychologically. I think
this is fine, as long as the player doesn't make repeated draw
offers just to be annoying.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 22:21 UTC

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 10:04:15 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
.....
>
> In chess, there are certainly cases when players have offered a
> draw in order to manipulate the opponent psychologically. I think
> this is fine, as long as the player doesn't make repeated draw
> offers just to be annoying.
>

I actually strongly object to Praggnanandhaa's draw offer here: https://youtu.be/fBMcSky08BA?t=890
Clearly, it's impossible for him to win so he's basically distracting his opponent by complaining that his
opponent won't concede the draw. If he wants the draw, he needs to earn it. And if he thinks the opponent
should concede the draw (which isn't really a sustainable view), he needs to discuss it with the arbiter.
I'm not saying Praggnanandhaa should have been penalized in any way, but I think it was very poor.
However, I haven't found anyone who agrees with me on this.
I wonder whether Praggnanandhaa's youth is a factor, and whether people would see things the way I do
if both players were adults.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 19:53:27 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 23:53 UTC

On 4/23/2022 6:21 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

> I actually strongly object to Praggnanandhaa's draw offer here: https://youtu.be/fBMcSky08BA?t=890

I'm confused. I watched the clip but I didn't see a draw offer.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 00:24 UTC

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 12:53:32 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 4/23/2022 6:21 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I actually strongly object to Praggnanandhaa's draw offer here: https://youtu.be/fBMcSky08BA?t=890
> I'm confused. I watched the clip but I didn't see a draw offer.
It's extremely clear at about 14mins 51 seconds into the clip. Praggnanandhaa moves his hand and says
"Draw?" I'm not sure how you managed to miss it. The draw offer is approx 1 second after the time corresponding
to the above link.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 07:49:20 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 11:49 UTC

On 4/23/2022 8:24 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 12:53:32 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
>> On 4/23/2022 6:21 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I actually strongly object to Praggnanandhaa's draw offer here: https://youtu.be/fBMcSky08BA?t=890
>> I'm confused. I watched the clip but I didn't see a draw offer.
>
> It's extremely clear at about 14mins 51 seconds into the clip. Praggnanandhaa moves his hand and says
> "Draw?" I'm not sure how you managed to miss it. The draw offer is approx 1 second after the time corresponding
> to the above link.

Ah, I see it now!

I do see an irregularity here, but it's not the one you mentioned.
Praggnanandhaa offers a draw while his opponent is making a move.
The standard time to make a draw offer is after a player makes a
move and just before hitting the clock. It's partly because of
this convention that I initially didn't parse Praggnanandhaa's
action as a draw offer.

If a player offers a draw at a nonstandard moment, then there is
more reason to take into consideration a claim that the draw offer
was an attempt to distract or annoy the opponent. I don't think it
was an intentional attempt to distract or annoy; in a blitz game,
it's easy to mess up the exact timing of an action. On the other
hand, I agree that it was impolite, given the position---unless
Praggnanandhaa was basically saying, "I know the drawing technique
here; let's not waste time." The position is, in fact, theoretically
drawn according to the tablebases, an Praggnanandhaa had been holding
the draw correctly for at least several moves prior to the draw offer.
But theoretically drawn is not the same as practically drawn, especially
in a blitz game, and Praggnanandhaa demonstrated that he did not, in
fact, know the drawing technique by blundering with ...Ka3? at 15:13,
and then making White's task easier by following it up with ...Ka2?
instead of, say, ...Rh5, which would have made White's task much more
challenging.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

<f771664e-ad88-4460-8bb7-a176f5e74dcbn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 12:01 UTC

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 12:49:23 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 4/23/2022 8:24 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 12:53:32 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> >> On 4/23/2022 6:21 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> I actually strongly object to Praggnanandhaa's draw offer here: https://youtu.be/fBMcSky08BA?t=890
> >> I'm confused. I watched the clip but I didn't see a draw offer.
> >
> > It's extremely clear at about 14mins 51 seconds into the clip. Praggnanandhaa moves his hand and says
> > "Draw?" I'm not sure how you managed to miss it. The draw offer is approx 1 second after the time corresponding
> > to the above link.
> Ah, I see it now!
>
> I do see an irregularity here, but it's not the one you mentioned.
> Praggnanandhaa offers a draw while his opponent is making a move.
> The standard time to make a draw offer is after a player makes a
> move and just before hitting the clock. It's partly because of
> this convention that I initially didn't parse Praggnanandhaa's
> action as a draw offer.
>
> If a player offers a draw at a nonstandard moment, then there is
> more reason to take into consideration a claim that the draw offer
> was an attempt to distract or annoy the opponent. I don't think it
> was an intentional attempt to distract or annoy; in a blitz game,
> it's easy to mess up the exact timing of an action. On the other
> hand, I agree that it was impolite, given the position---unless
> Praggnanandhaa was basically saying, "I know the drawing technique
> here; let's not waste time." The position is, in fact, theoretically
> drawn according to the tablebases, an Praggnanandhaa had been holding
> the draw correctly for at least several moves prior to the draw offer.
> But theoretically drawn is not the same as practically drawn, especially
> in a blitz game, and Praggnanandhaa demonstrated that he did not, in
> fact, know the drawing technique by blundering with ...Ka3? at 15:13,
> and then making White's task easier by following it up with ...Ka2?
> instead of, say, ...Rh5, which would have made White's task much more
> challenging.

Agreed. The distraction/annoyance was (probably) not intentional, but it was still wrong.
There is on youtube a much clearer instance of bad behaviour by Praggnanandhaa -- a
blatant attempt at a touchmove violation. But he's much more mature now, I'm sure, and
of course, good for him for being on track to be either the World Chess Champion or
a strong contender for the title.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Premature double, take
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2022 08:30:22 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 12:30 UTC

On 4/24/2022 8:01 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> Agreed. The distraction/annoyance was (probably) not intentional, but it was still wrong.
> There is on youtube a much clearer instance of bad behaviour by Praggnanandhaa -- a
> blatant attempt at a touchmove violation. But he's much more mature now, I'm sure, and
> of course, good for him for being on track to be either the World Chess Champion or
> a strong contender for the title.

This is getting even further off topic, but I can't resist
mentioning an incident recounted in Hesse's book "The Joys of
Chess," in which both players blundered, but you wouldn't know
this from just the game score, which does not record draw offers
that are not accepted.

What happened was that one of the players offered a draw before
making a move. The opponent insisted that the player follow
standard practice and make a move first, and only then would the
draw offer be considered. The player obliged, thought for a while,
and then suddenly noticed a crushing move that led to a quick
forced win. The player made the move. The opponent was shocked,
and immediately resigned.

According to the FIDE laws of chess, the draw offer was still in
force, so the opponent could have legally claimed a draw. The
resignation was therefore a blunder, and by extension, the draw
offer was also a blunder.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 12:30 UTC

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 12:49:23 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 4/23/2022 8:24 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 12:53:32 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> >> On 4/23/2022 6:21 PM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> I actually strongly object to Praggnanandhaa's draw offer here: https://youtu.be/fBMcSky08BA?t=890
> >> I'm confused. I watched the clip but I didn't see a draw offer.
> >
> > It's extremely clear at about 14mins 51 seconds into the clip. Praggnanandhaa moves his hand and says
> > "Draw?" I'm not sure how you managed to miss it. The draw offer is approx 1 second after the time corresponding
> > to the above link.
> Ah, I see it now!
>
> I do see an irregularity here, but it's not the one you mentioned.
> Praggnanandhaa offers a draw while his opponent is making a move.
> The standard time to make a draw offer is after a player makes a
> move and just before hitting the clock. It's partly because of
> this convention that I initially didn't parse Praggnanandhaa's
> action as a draw offer.
>
> If a player offers a draw at a nonstandard moment, then there is
> more reason to take into consideration a claim that the draw offer
> was an attempt to distract or annoy the opponent. I don't think it
> was an intentional attempt to distract or annoy; in a blitz game,
> it's easy to mess up the exact timing of an action. On the other
> hand, I agree that it was impolite, given the position---unless
> Praggnanandhaa was basically saying, "I know the drawing technique
> here; let's not waste time." The position is, in fact, theoretically
> drawn according to the tablebases, an Praggnanandhaa had been holding
> the draw correctly for at least several moves prior to the draw offer.
> But theoretically drawn is not the same as practically drawn, especially
> in a blitz game, and Praggnanandhaa demonstrated that he did not, in
> fact, know the drawing technique by blundering with ...Ka3? at 15:13,
> and then making White's task easier by following it up with ...Ka2?
> instead of, say, ...Rh5, which would have made White's task much more
> challenging.

Regarding the playing of the position, I'll remark that I think Tablebases,
together with books that explain them such as Nunn's, make a great equaliser.
For example, my strength is probably about 1700 USCF (or maybe even worse).
However, suppose that I had two days of pure prep time.
And suppose, out of the blue, we pick a random GM in the FIDE 2500 to 2700 range
(without forewarning them of the situation) and we put myself against the GM in
R + B v R endings. I would make myself a favourite to outperform them.
However, I'm probably better at studying and digesting clearly-explained endings than
other aspects of chess.

Paul

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: grunting...@yahoo.com (Grunty)
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 by: Grunty - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 22:59 UTC

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 6:19:37 PM UTC-3, Paul wrote:
> But I'm not a TD.
> So there's also the question: What's a TD to do?
> The answer (or rather the Gruntyized answer) is that a teedeetoodoo is a tune that a lot of people sing in the bath.
>
> Paul

That one made it to RGB's Hall of Fame ;-D

Re: Premature double, take

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Subject: Re: Premature double, take
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Fri, 9 Sep 2022 16:20 UTC

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 1:30:25 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 4/24/2022 8:01 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Agreed. The distraction/annoyance was (probably) not intentional, but it was still wrong.
> > There is on youtube a much clearer instance of bad behaviour by Praggnanandhaa -- a
> > blatant attempt at a touchmove violation. But he's much more mature now, I'm sure, and
> > of course, good for him for being on track to be either the World Chess Champion or
> > a strong contender for the title.
> This is getting even further off topic, but I can't resist
> mentioning an incident recounted in Hesse's book "The Joys of
> Chess," in which both players blundered, but you wouldn't know
> this from just the game score, which does not record draw offers
> that are not accepted.
>
> What happened was that one of the players offered a draw before
> making a move. The opponent insisted that the player follow
> standard practice and make a move first, and only then would the
> draw offer be considered. The player obliged, thought for a while,
> and then suddenly noticed a crushing move that led to a quick
> forced win. The player made the move. The opponent was shocked,
> and immediately resigned.
>
> According to the FIDE laws of chess, the draw offer was still in
> force, so the opponent could have legally claimed a draw. The
> resignation was therefore a blunder, and by extension, the draw
> offer was also a blunder.
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

Not the most relevant point I've ever made.
But I'd like to state that Praggnanandhaa's older sister, Vaishali Rameshbabu,
is a strong international master, with a FIDE rating of 2449.
I think that this is a strong enough rating that, if she has the White pieces, she stands
a good chance of drawing against her brother, but is not very likely to win.

Paul

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