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interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: Lost wallet

SubjectAuthor
* Lost walletpeps...@gmail.com
+* Re: Lost walletTimothy Chow
|+- Re: Lost walletTimothy Chow
|+- Re: Lost walletMK
|`- Re: Lost walletpeps...@gmail.com
`- Re: Lost walletBlueDice

1
Lost wallet

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Subject: Lost wallet
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Wed, 4 May 2022 15:30 UTC

Below, I actually lost 0.537 equity.
All I was trying to do was anchor on the opponent's 4 point for solidity.
Why is this a worse idea than putting lumps of chocolate
into a Margherita Pizza?

Thanks for your help.

Paul

XGID=-----BCBC---bB---dcd-A-Bb-:0:0:1:52:5:0:3:0:10
X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon

Score is X:5 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O | | O X X O |
| X O O | | O X O |
| O O | | O |
| O | | O |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| X | | X |
| O X X | | X X |
| O X X | | X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 159 O: 105 X-O: 5-0
Cube: 1
X to play 52

1. XG Roller+ 21/16 6/4 eq:-0.377
Player: 40.22% (G:4.84% B:0.13%)
Opponent: 59.78% (G:11.29% B:0.31%)

2. XG Roller+ 23/21 8/3 eq:-0.913 (-0.537)
Player: 28.58% (G:3.71% B:0.11%)
Opponent: 71.42% (G:16.33% B:0.15%)

3. 4-ply 21/16 8/6 eq:-0.454 (-0.077)
Player: 38.39% (G:4.83% B:0.07%)
Opponent: 61.61% (G:13.16% B:0.34%)

4. 4-ply 8/3 6/4 eq:-0.507 (-0.131)
Player: 38.69% (G:5.56% B:0.11%)
Opponent: 61.31% (G:18.63% B:0.66%)

5. 3-ply 21/14 eq:-0.524 (-0.147)
Player: 36.28% (G:4.17% B:0.12%)
Opponent: 63.72% (G:12.73% B:0.30%)

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10

Re: Lost wallet

<t4velj$1lh$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Lost wallet
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 23:01:05 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Thu, 5 May 2022 03:01 UTC

On 5/4/2022 11:30 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> Below, I actually lost 0.537 equity.
> All I was trying to do was anchor on the opponent's 4 point for solidity.

You're massively behind in the pip count so you have to hit a shot,
and so you have to stay back for more contact.

I'm reminded of the position below from Mike Corbett's book, "Backgammon
Problems." He makes the following rather brutal comment: "If you
advocate making the advanced anchor, then whatever division you're
playing in, demote yourself to the next lower one." He goes on to
explain, "X must capture one of O's checkers to win, and the two point
anchor rates to generate significantly more shots than the four point
with a blot on the two point."

XGID=----BBCAAA---Ba-cbbbcA-Bb-:0:0:1:62:0:0:3:0:10

X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O O O | | O O X X O |
| X O O O | | O O X O |
| O | | O |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | X |
| | | X X X |
| X X X | | X X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 153 O: 97 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 62

1. XG Roller+ 21/15 9/7 eq:-0.770
Player: 31.85% (G:3.35% B:0.11%)
Opponent: 68.15% (G:15.55% B:0.56%)

2. XG Roller+ 21/15 13/11 eq:-0.785 (-0.015)
Player: 31.61% (G:3.44% B:0.12%)
Opponent: 68.39% (G:16.20% B:0.68%)

3. XG Roller+ 21/13 eq:-0.824 (-0.054)
Player: 29.79% (G:3.14% B:0.11%)
Opponent: 70.21% (G:13.18% B:0.51%)

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

---
Tim Chow

Re: Lost wallet

<t4vf6d$6a1$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Lost wallet
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 23:10:02 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Timothy Chow - Thu, 5 May 2022 03:10 UTC

Whoops...I neglected to post any bot info for making the advanced
anchor. See below. I have given X the cube, because with the cube
in the center, XG says that X has to pass O's double if X plays
23/21 13/7. If the cube were centered and X were to take after
playing 23/21 13/7, then XG would report a total equity loss of
2 x 0.283 ~ 0.566 from the combined checker-play error and the
bad take.

XGID=----BBCAAA---Ba-cbbbcA-Bb-:1:1:1:62:0:0:3:0:10

X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O O O | | O O X X O |
| X O O O | | O O X O |
| O | | O |
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | X | +---+
| | | X X X | | 2 |
| X X X | | X X X | +---+
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 153 O: 97 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, X own cube
X to play 62

1. XG Roller++ 21/15 9/7 eq:-0.386
Player: 31.11% (G:3.39% B:0.08%)
Opponent: 68.89% (G:14.80% B:0.45%)

2. XG Roller++ 21/15 13/11 eq:-0.407 (-0.021)
Player: 30.95% (G:3.56% B:0.09%)
Opponent: 69.05% (G:16.59% B:0.72%)

3. XG Roller++ 23/21 13/7 eq:-0.669 (-0.283)
Player: 21.10% (G:2.26% B:0.06%)
Opponent: 78.90% (G:18.81% B:0.14%)

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

---
Tim Chow

Re: Lost wallet

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Subject: Re: Lost wallet
From: mur...@compuplus.net (MK)
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 by: MK - Thu, 5 May 2022 08:33 UTC

> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

My latest trial version says 2.19.211.2671.Pre-release
(with a capital "P").

How many tial/registered versions of XG are out there?

How does who finds what version where?

What are the differences between those versions? Any
change log somewhere?

I think the version I have cheats. :( It must have been
compiled just for me and special delivered... :)

MK

Re: Lost wallet

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Subject: Re: Lost wallet
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Thu, 5 May 2022 11:02 UTC

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 4:01:09 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 5/4/2022 11:30 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Below, I actually lost 0.537 equity.
> > All I was trying to do was anchor on the opponent's 4 point for solidity.
> You're massively behind in the pip count so you have to hit a shot,
> and so you have to stay back for more contact.
>
> I'm reminded of the position below from Mike Corbett's book, "Backgammon
> Problems." He makes the following rather brutal comment: "If you
> advocate making the advanced anchor, then whatever division you're
> playing in, demote yourself to the next lower one." He goes on to
> explain, "X must capture one of O's checkers to win, and the two point
> anchor rates to generate significantly more shots than the four point
> with a blot on the two point."
>
> XGID=----BBCAAA---Ba-cbbbcA-Bb-:0:0:1:62:0:0:3:0:10
>
> X:Player 1 O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O O O O | | O O X X O |
> | X O O O | | O O X O |
> | O | | O |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | | | X |
> | | | X X X |
> | X X X | | X X X |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 153 O: 97 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 62
>
> 1. XG Roller+ 21/15 9/7 eq:-0.770
> Player: 31.85% (G:3.35% B:0.11%)
> Opponent: 68.15% (G:15.55% B:0.56%)
>
> 2. XG Roller+ 21/15 13/11 eq:-0.785 (-0.015)
> Player: 31.61% (G:3.44% B:0.12%)
> Opponent: 68.39% (G:16.20% B:0.68%)
>
> 3. XG Roller+ 21/13 eq:-0.824 (-0.054)
> Player: 29.79% (G:3.14% B:0.11%)
> Opponent: 70.21% (G:13.18% B:0.51%)
>
> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

Thanks for this. I'm surprised, I've never come across this issue before.
Positions which look like holding positions except that one side has a 50 point + lead
might not be all that common.

Paul

Re: Lost wallet

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Subject: Re: Lost wallet
From: bluedice...@gmail.com (BlueDice)
Injection-Date: Thu, 05 May 2022 13:01:09 +0000
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 by: BlueDice - Thu, 5 May 2022 13:01 UTC

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 4:30:29 PM UTC+1, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> Below, I actually lost 0.537 equity.
> All I was trying to do was anchor on the opponent's 4 point for solidity.
> Why is this a worse idea than putting lumps of chocolate
> into a Margherita Pizza?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Paul
>
> XGID=-----BCBC---bB---dcd-A-Bb-:0:0:1:52:5:0:3:0:10
> X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon
>
> Score is X:5 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O O | | O X X O |
> | X O O | | O X O |
> | O O | | O |
> | O | | O |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | X | | X |
> | O X X | | X X |
> | O X X | | X X |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 159 O: 105 X-O: 5-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 52
>
> 1. XG Roller+ 21/16 6/4 eq:-0.377
> Player: 40.22% (G:4.84% B:0.13%)
> Opponent: 59.78% (G:11.29% B:0.31%)
>
> 2. XG Roller+ 23/21 8/3 eq:-0.913 (-0.537)
> Player: 28.58% (G:3.71% B:0.11%)
> Opponent: 71.42% (G:16.33% B:0.15%)
>
> 3. 4-ply 21/16 8/6 eq:-0.454 (-0.077)
> Player: 38.39% (G:4.83% B:0.07%)
> Opponent: 61.61% (G:13.16% B:0.34%)
>
> 4. 4-ply 8/3 6/4 eq:-0.507 (-0.131)
> Player: 38.69% (G:5.56% B:0.11%)
> Opponent: 61.31% (G:18.63% B:0.66%)
>
> 5. 3-ply 21/14 eq:-0.524 (-0.147)
> Player: 36.28% (G:4.17% B:0.12%)
> Opponent: 63.72% (G:12.73% B:0.30%)
>
>
> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10

Apart from keeping more contact from the 2 anchor and also stopping opp from dumping behind the 2 anchor, opp may never fill the 3 gaps in front of your anchor before being forced to leave a shot.
--
BD

1
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