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interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one legal play??

SubjectAuthor
* How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one legal play??peps...@gmail.com
`* Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only oneBlueDice
 `* Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only oneTimothy Chow
  `- Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only onepeps...@gmail.com

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How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one legal play??

<358b39df-fb96-4fc2-b019-ce55823e786fn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one legal play??
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Thu, 5 May 2022 23:35 UTC

I never said it was a checkerplay problem.
The problem is: Guess my (Daniel's) equity.
For an easier problem, which side is doing better?

Paul

XGID=-EDb-BB-a---------acbbbaa-:1:-1:1:63:0:0:3:0:10
X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon

Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| O | | O O O O O O | +---+
| | | O O O O | | 2 |
| | | O | +---+
| | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| | | X X |
| | | X X |
| | | X X O X X |
| O | | X X O X X |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 35 O: 113 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, O own cube
X to play 63


eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10

Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one legal play??

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Subject: Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one
legal play??
From: davidgal...@gmail.com (BlueDice)
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 by: BlueDice - Fri, 6 May 2022 11:51 UTC

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:35:28 AM UTC+1, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> I never said it was a checkerplay problem.
> The problem is: Guess my (Daniel's) equity.
> For an easier problem, which side is doing better?
>
> Paul
>
> XGID=-EDb-BB-a---------acbbbaa-:1:-1:1:63:0:0:3:0:10
> X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon
>
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | O | | O O O O O O | +---+
> | | | O O O O | | 2 |
> | | | O | +---+
> | | | |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | X |
> | | | X X |
> | | | X X |
> | | | X X O X X |
> | O | | X X O X X |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 35 O: 113 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 2, O own cube
> X to play 63
>
>
> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10

X has a huge advantage, I'm guessing 70%/80% GWC and 25%/35% gammons, equity ~ 0.9
--
BD

Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one legal play??

<t536il$u3b$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one
legal play??
Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 09:07:31 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Fri, 6 May 2022 13:07 UTC

On 5/6/2022 7:51 AM, BlueDice wrote:
>> XGID=-EDb-BB-a---------acbbbaa-:1:-1:1:63:0:0:3:0:10
>> X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon
>>
>> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
>> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
>> | O | | O O O O O O | +---+
>> | | | O O O O | | 2 |
>> | | | O | +---+
>> | | | |
>> | | | |
>> | |BAR| |
>> | | | X |
>> | | | X X |
>> | | | X X |
>> | | | X X O X X |
>> | O | | X X O X X |
>> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
>> Pip count X: 35 O: 113 X-O: 0-0
>> Cube: 2, O own cube
>> X to play 63
>>
>>
>> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10
>
> X has a huge advantage, I'm guessing 70%/80% GWC and 25%/35% gammons, equity ~ 0.9

Maybe you misunderstood the question? Paul means, what's X's
equity after he makes the only legal play, 6/off 5/2?

It's a nice question. X has three checkers off already and has
decent gammon chances. O has just 21 rolls to hit, and the win
isn't guaranteed after a hit. I suspect that X is still the
equity favorite but I'm not sure.

---
Tim Chow

Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one legal play??

<1924638a-3362-4e1d-ba65-0925bdae7b3dn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one
legal play??
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Sun, 8 May 2022 12:43 UTC

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:07:35 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 5/6/2022 7:51 AM, BlueDice wrote:
> >> XGID=-EDb-BB-a---------acbbbaa-:1:-1:1:63:0:0:3:0:10
> >> X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon
> >>
> >> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
> >> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> >> | O | | O O O O O O | +---+
> >> | | | O O O O | | 2 |
> >> | | | O | +---+
> >> | | | |
> >> | | | |
> >> | |BAR| |
> >> | | | X |
> >> | | | X X |
> >> | | | X X |
> >> | | | X X O X X |
> >> | O | | X X O X X |
> >> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> >> Pip count X: 35 O: 113 X-O: 0-0
> >> Cube: 2, O own cube
> >> X to play 63
> >>
> >>
> >> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10
> >
> > X has a huge advantage, I'm guessing 70%/80% GWC and 25%/35% gammons, equity ~ 0.9
> Maybe you misunderstood the question? Paul means, what's X's
> equity after he makes the only legal play, 6/off 5/2?
>
> It's a nice question. X has three checkers off already and has
> decent gammon chances. O has just 21 rolls to hit, and the win
> isn't guaranteed after a hit. I suspect that X is still the
> equity favorite but I'm not sure.

XG's 3-ply evaluation is:
1. 3-ply 6/Off 5/2 eq:-0.103
Player: 43.33% (G:15.54% B:0.04%)
Opponent: 56.67% (G:0.00% B:0.00%)

Like Tim, I was also surprised by how low this is.
I think the reason that Tim and I overestimate X is that
we weren't taking enough consideration of the cube.

We can variantize to obtain cube symmetry in any of the following
three variantizations:
A) The checker position is kept the same. However, instead of
giving O the cube, use a 50/50 coin toss to determine whether O or X has cube
ownership.

B) My grandma rolls a fair die separately in another room. If she
rolls <=2, X has cube ownership; if she rolls >=5, O has cube ownership;
otherwise, the cube goes to the middle.

C) The game continues cubelessly but gammons and backgammons are scored as usual.

I suspect that X is an equity favourite in all these three variantizations.
So, I do think it's fair to say that the checker position itself is favourable to X.
But please try not to minimise the importance of cube ownership.

Paul

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