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interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: Backgammon as a casino game

SubjectAuthor
* Backgammon as a casino gamepeps...@gmail.com
+* Re: Backgammon as a casino gameMK
|`* Re: Backgammon as a casino gamepeps...@gmail.com
| `* Re: Backgammon as a casino gameMK
|  `* Re: Backgammon as a casino gameMK
|   +* Re: Backgammon as a casino gamepeps...@gmail.com
|   |`- Re: Backgammon as a casino gameMK
|   `* Re: Backgammon as a casino gamepeps...@gmail.com
|    `* Re: Backgammon as a casino gameMK
|     +- Re: Backgammon as a casino gamepeps...@gmail.com
|     `* Re: Backgammon as a casino gameTimothy Chow
|      `* Re: Backgammon as a casino gameMK
|       `* Re: Backgammon as a casino gameTimothy Chow
|        `* Re: Backgammon as a casino gameMK
|         `- Re: Backgammon as a casino gameTimothy Chow
`* Re: Backgammon as a casino gameTimothy Chow
 +* Re: Backgammon as a casino gamepeps...@gmail.com
 |`- Re: Backgammon as a casino gameTimothy Chow
 `- Re: Backgammon as a casino gameMK

1
Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Backgammon as a casino game
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Thu, 12 May 2022 11:21 UTC

The following idea isn't very original, but I haven't seen it.
A casino invites customers to play XG for either money or match.
If XG rolls the dice, many will (wrongly) suspect cheating. Therefore,
the casino dice can be used, with the customer rolling for XG as well
as their own rolls.
In the case of a money session, the customer must be able to cover
the case that XG wins a backgammon (if that is possible).
(I'm not sure what gets done in the case that the cube escalates too
much but there are clearly possible rules here).

This would be an unusual (possibly unique) casino game in that the
rake comes purely from XG's greater ability. There is no added rake
or other fees. I think that would be a strong selling point.

Paul

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: mur...@compuplus.net (MK)
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 by: MK - Fri, 13 May 2022 00:14 UTC

On May 12, 2022 at 5:21:54 AM UTC-6, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

> A casino invites customers to play XG
> for either money or match.

What odds will the casino offer? I will play
for even odds based on my expected wins
based on my error rates.

> rake comes purely from XG's greater ability.

> (I'm not sure what gets done in the case
> that the cube escalates too much but
> there are clearly possible rules here).

Except that you won't allow human players
to exploit XG's "greater ability", eh? :)

Well, the world is full of idiots. Some may
fall for it...

MK

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Fri, 13 May 2022 10:13 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:14:45 AM UTC+1, MK wrote:
> On May 12, 2022 at 5:21:54 AM UTC-6, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > A casino invites customers to play XG
> > for either money or match.
> What odds will the casino offer? I will play
> for even odds based on my expected wins
> based on my error rates.
> > rake comes purely from XG's greater ability.
> > (I'm not sure what gets done in the case
> > that the cube escalates too much but
> > there are clearly possible rules here).
> Except that you won't allow human players
> to exploit XG's "greater ability", eh? :)
>
> Well, the world is full of idiots. Some may
> fall for it...
>
> MK
XG plays normal backgammon against the customers.
When XG wins, the money goes to the casino.
When XG loses, the money goes to the customer.
It's just normal backgammon. There are no extra "odds" offered.

Paul

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 08:43:00 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Fri, 13 May 2022 12:43 UTC

On 5/12/2022 7:21 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> (I'm not sure what gets done in the case that the cube escalates too
> much but there are clearly possible rules here).

The simplest approach would be to cap the cube (at 16, let's say).
XG does have a feature that puts a cap on the cube (in fact, even
in "unlimited" games, I believe that XG caps the cube at 1024),
but I'm not sure that it handles this cap correctly. It should be
possible to force it to play correctly by feeding it a suitable MET
and having it play the first game of a match to 16 points.

https://www.bkgm.com/faq/Variants.html#how_does_strategy_in_table_stakes_differ_from_unlimited_money_play_

But then I think that Jacoby/Beaver would need to be disabled (not
necessarily a bad thing for a game played against the house).

---
Tim Chow

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Fri, 13 May 2022 13:28 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:43:06 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 5/12/2022 7:21 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > (I'm not sure what gets done in the case that the cube escalates too
> > much but there are clearly possible rules here).
> The simplest approach would be to cap the cube (at 16, let's say).
> XG does have a feature that puts a cap on the cube (in fact, even
> in "unlimited" games, I believe that XG caps the cube at 1024),
> but I'm not sure that it handles this cap correctly. It should be
> possible to force it to play correctly by feeding it a suitable MET
> and having it play the first game of a match to 16 points.
>
> https://www.bkgm.com/faq/Variants.html#how_does_strategy_in_table_stakes_differ_from_unlimited_money_play_
>
> But then I think that Jacoby/Beaver would need to be disabled (not
> necessarily a bad thing for a game played against the house).
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

It's not at all clear to me that maxing your equity on a money-game capped-at-16
is the same thing as playing the first game of a match-to-16 correctly.

In fact, I would think these two things are different.

Paul

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: mur...@compuplus.net (MK)
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 by: MK - Sat, 14 May 2022 02:05 UTC

On May 13, 2022 at 4:13:46 AM UTC-6, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

> On May 13, 2022 at 1:14:45 AM UTC+1, MK wrote:

>> On May 12, 2022 at 5:21:54 AM UTC-6, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> A casino invites customers to play XG
>>> for either money or match.

>> What odds will the casino offer? I will play
>> for even odds based on my expected wins
>> based on my error rates.

>>> rake comes purely from XG's greater ability.
>>> (I'm not sure what gets done in the case
>>> that the cube escalates too much but
>>> there are clearly possible rules here).

>> Except that you won't allow human players
>> to exploit XG's "greater ability", eh? :)

>> Well, the world is full of idiots. Some may
>> fall for it...

> XG plays normal backgammon against the customers.
> When XG wins, the money goes to the casino.
> When XG loses, the money goes to the customer.
> It's just normal backgammon. There are no extra "odds"
> offered.

I think this is a very promising thread. Let's see
how far it will go.

With your above conditions, who do you suppose
would play? You? Tim? Mocky, micky, shticky...??

In order to save a turn, feel free to elaborate why
anyone would or wouln't play...

MK

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: mur...@compuplus.net (MK)
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 by: MK - Sat, 14 May 2022 02:42 UTC

On May 13, 2022 at 6:43:06 AM UTC-6, Tim Chow wrote:

> On 5/12/2022 7:21 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

>> (I'm not sure what gets done in the case that the
>> cube escalates too much but there are clearly
>> possible rules here).

> The simplest approach would be to cap the cube
> (at 16, let's say)....

In money play, a mutant cube strategy can raise
the cube to 16 in a few moves. After that, it will
become a cube-skill-only game but I don't know
why would anyone do that unless they can then
apply a mutant checker strategy to beat the bot.

However, a more balanced and combined mutant
cube and mutant checker strategies together may
win more, regardless of a cap on the cube.

In match play, it's a whole different story. With the
cube at 16 after a few moves in a 25-point match,
the match may be over in a single game with a
gammon or backgammon win, or at most in two
games, which will also become cube-skill-only
games after a few moves.

I suspect many people, especially the ones who
considers themselves the lesser player against
the bot, may try this because reducing a 25-point
match to only 1 or 2 games would greatly increase
the luck factor which benefits the lesser player.

MK

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 09:42:11 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Sat, 14 May 2022 13:42 UTC

On 5/13/2022 9:28 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:43:06 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
>> On 5/12/2022 7:21 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> (I'm not sure what gets done in the case that the cube escalates too
>>> much but there are clearly possible rules here).
>> The simplest approach would be to cap the cube (at 16, let's say).
>> XG does have a feature that puts a cap on the cube (in fact, even
>> in "unlimited" games, I believe that XG caps the cube at 1024),
>> but I'm not sure that it handles this cap correctly. It should be
>> possible to force it to play correctly by feeding it a suitable MET
>> and having it play the first game of a match to 16 points.
>>
>> https://www.bkgm.com/faq/Variants.html#how_does_strategy_in_table_stakes_differ_from_unlimited_money_play_
>>
>> But then I think that Jacoby/Beaver would need to be disabled (not
>> necessarily a bad thing for a game played against the house).
>>
>> ---
>> Tim Chow
>
> It's not at all clear to me that maxing your equity on a money-game capped-at-16
> is the same thing as playing the first game of a match-to-16 correctly.
>
> In fact, I would think these two things are different.

Did you click on the link? You have to a use a table stakes MET.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: mur...@compuplus.net (MK)
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 by: MK - Mon, 16 May 2022 06:15 UTC

On May 13, 2022 at 8:05:40 PM UTC-6, MK wrote:

> On May 13, 2022 at 4:13:46 AM UTC-6, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

> I think this is a very promising thread. Let's see
> how far it will go.
> With your above conditions, who do you suppose
> would play? You? Tim? Mocky, micky, shticky...??
> In order to save a turn, feel free to elaborate why
> anyone would or wouln't play...

I find a thread of yours interesting and now you
won't engage? How disappointing. :(

If you had called it as one of your cutesy stupid
threads like "While playing gamblegammon as a
casino game, would you eat fish and chips with
chopsticks?", I most likely would have ignored it.

Oh well, I guess I'll just talk to the wind again... ;)

I really did like this idea and wondered why it has
not been done even with earlier baots decades ago.

Gnubg is non-profit and I don't know if this would
work with it but since the owners of XG already run
online gaming sites, it would have been very fitting
for them to do this, perhaps in partnership with real
casini and in multiple locations.

If Indian reservation casini around here offered it,
I would so welcome the opportunity to play against
XG (or other bots), in a supervised setting, without
having to beg anyone to facilitate Zoom meetings.

Not to win money, of course, when even the giants
of gamblegammondom with eXtremely low ER/PR
won't do such a stupid thing. But perhaps to show
that I can win more than expected from my ER/PR
and demonstrate that those calculations along with
other interrelated calculated values/windows/tables,
etc. are all hogwash.

Oh, I also meant to ask if I would be allowed to play
using XG's (or other bots') internal dice instead of
manual dice?

If yes, then I may also be willing to spend/lose some
money in having fun to show that some bots cheat
with their internal dice. ;)

Oops, I broke wind trying to reach for the manual dice
on the floor. :( And I think I heard the wind giggle. :)

MK

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 08:24:30 +0000
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Mon, 16 May 2022 08:24 UTC

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 7:15:56 AM UTC+1, MK wrote:
> On May 13, 2022 at 8:05:40 PM UTC-6, MK wrote:
>
> > On May 13, 2022 at 4:13:46 AM UTC-6, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I think this is a very promising thread. Let's see
> > how far it will go.
> > With your above conditions, who do you suppose
> > would play? You? Tim? Mocky, micky, shticky...??
> > In order to save a turn, feel free to elaborate why
> > anyone would or wouln't play...
> I find a thread of yours interesting and now you
> won't engage? How disappointing. :(
>
> If you had called it as one of your cutesy stupid
> threads like "While playing gamblegammon as a
> casino game, would you eat fish and chips with
> chopsticks?", I most likely would have ignored it.
>
> Oh well, I guess I'll just talk to the wind again... ;)
>
> I really did like this idea and wondered why it has
> not been done even with earlier baots decades ago.
>
> Gnubg is non-profit and I don't know if this would
> work with it but since the owners of XG already run
> online gaming sites, it would have been very fitting
> for them to do this, perhaps in partnership with real
> casini and in multiple locations.
>
> If Indian reservation casini around here offered it,
> I would so welcome the opportunity to play against
> XG (or other bots), in a supervised setting, without
> having to beg anyone to facilitate Zoom meetings.
>
> Not to win money, of course, when even the giants
> of gamblegammondom with eXtremely low ER/PR
> won't do such a stupid thing. But perhaps to show
> that I can win more than expected from my ER/PR
> and demonstrate that those calculations along with
> other interrelated calculated values/windows/tables,
> etc. are all hogwash.
>
> Oh, I also meant to ask if I would be allowed to play
> using XG's (or other bots') internal dice instead of
> manual dice?
>
> If yes, then I may also be willing to spend/lose some
> money in having fun to show that some bots cheat
> with their internal dice. ;)
>
> Oops, I broke wind trying to reach for the manual dice
> on the floor. :( And I think I heard the wind giggle. :)
>
> MK
Ok, I'll engage a bit.
I wouldn't choose a cutesy title that long, because I've been
explicitly asked to keep my titles shorter, and I am trying to respect that.

The point of my game is that every human would lose in the long run --
a game without that feature would be unlikely to be ideal for a casino.
Therefore, as a pro gambler, Stick would not play.
Would Tim play? I don't know him well enough to know if he would or not,
but I'm happy to make a few speculative guesses.
I expect he wouldn't want to take the trouble to travel to a casino.
But, suppose he finds that there's a casino with [my] backgammon right next
door to him, what would he do then? Well, certainly he would realise that
he would lose in the long run if he played. But would he play anyway?
Yes, I think he'd be curious enough and interested enough to do this --
clearly he enjoys the game. I would think that some of his book buys
cost more than the money he is likely to gain from better play, but he still buys them.
As a 4.5 player, he wouldn't lose very much money in the long run.

The main customer base would be people who overestimate themselves
and underestimate the bots. Many customers would (wrongly) expect to win.
Yes, playing against the bot's internal dice is allowed.

Another option could be for the casino staff to roll the dice manually.

Paul

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 20:12:37 +0000
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Mon, 16 May 2022 20:12 UTC

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 7:15:56 AM UTC+1, MK wrote:
> On May 13, 2022 at 8:05:40 PM UTC-6, MK wrote:
>
> > On May 13, 2022 at 4:13:46 AM UTC-6, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
.....
> If you had called it as one of your cutesy stupid
> threads like "While playing gamblegammon as a
> casino game, would you eat fish and chips with
> chopsticks?", I most likely would have ignored it.
.....

I don't call it "gamblegammon" but if you change the title to
"While playing backgammon as a casino game, would you
eat fish and chips with chopsticks?", then I think it makes
an excellent parody of my titles.

Paul

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: mur...@compuplus.net (MK)
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 by: MK - Thu, 19 May 2022 07:45 UTC

On May 16, 2022 at 2:24:30 AM UTC-6, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

> I wouldn't choose a cutesy title that long,
> because I've been explicitly asked to keep my
> titles shorter, and I am trying to respect that.

If you can be asked to do things, may I as you
to use more meaningful titles instead? Like:
"Hit or run?", "Pay now or later", etc. Har har! :)

> The point of my game is that every human
> would lose in the long run

You are wrong on this but I want to see it being
played in casini before I say any more on this.

> Yes, playing against the bot's internal dice is
> allowed.

This is good. None of my experiment against
bots were played with manual dice even though
I thought they were cheating with their internal
dice because I had realized that I did better with
their "predictable" dice than with manual dice. I
posted on this topic a few times in the past and
I don't want to waste time repeating.

And one more question: What about side bets?
I'm not a gambler and I'm almost totally ignorant
on such things but I would like to be able to bet
on more creatively structured bets with people
or with the casino itself.

MK

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: mur...@compuplus.net (MK)
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 by: MK - Thu, 19 May 2022 07:57 UTC

On May 16, 2022 at 2:12:38 PM UTC-6, peps...@gmail.com wrote:

> I don't call it "gamblegammon"

Why not start calling it that? Many people have
been calling it a "cubeful variant" for decades.
Why can't you all bring yourselves to give it a
more fitting/descriptive name??

> but if you change the title to "While playing
> backgammon as a casino game, would you
> eat fish and chips with chopsticks?", then I
> think it makes an excellent parody of my titles.

Oh no! I didn't even realize. I'm "paularizing"...
Help! Help!

MK

BTW: I've been trying to bait Tim by using "casini"
as plural of "casino" to no avail. ;) I guess he won't
correct my Latin anymore... :(

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Thu, 19 May 2022 10:58 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:57:27 AM UTC+1, MK wrote:
> On May 16, 2022 at 2:12:38 PM UTC-6, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > I don't call it "gamblegammon"
> Why not start calling it that? Many people have
> been calling it a "cubeful variant" for decades.
> Why can't you all bring yourselves to give it a
> more fitting/descriptive name??
> > but if you change the title to "While playing
> > backgammon as a casino game, would you
> > eat fish and chips with chopsticks?", then I
> > think it makes an excellent parody of my titles.
> Oh no! I didn't even realize. I'm "paularizing"...
> Help! Help!
>
> MK
>
> BTW: I've been trying to bait Tim by using "casini"
> as plural of "casino" to no avail. ;) I guess he won't
> correct my Latin anymore... :(

Tim's use of language is very standard. His lack of correction is
consistent. He also doesn't correct me when I say "variantization".

The name "gamblegammon" is fine -- it's just not to my taste.

Paul

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 09:42:31 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Thu, 19 May 2022 13:42 UTC

On 5/19/2022 3:57 AM, MK wrote:

> BTW: I've been trying to bait Tim by using "casini"
> as plural of "casino" to no avail. ;) I guess he won't
> correct my Latin anymore... :(

I can tell when you're making an error out of ignorance
("corpi") and when you're being a troll.

---
Tim Chow

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: mur...@compuplus.net (MK)
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 by: MK - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:21 UTC

On May 19, 2022 at 7:42:34 AM UTC-6, Tim Chow wrote:

> I can tell when you're making an error out of
> ignorance ("corpi") and when you're being a troll.

I'm proud of you! You've come a long way... ;)

MK

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 08:16:05 -0400
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 by: Timothy Chow - Fri, 20 May 2022 12:16 UTC

On 5/19/2022 9:21 PM, MK wrote:
> On May 19, 2022 at 7:42:34 AM UTC-6, Tim Chow wrote:
>
>> I can tell when you're making an error out of
>> ignorance ("corpi") and when you're being a troll.
>
> I'm proud of you! You've come a long way... ;)

So have you!

---
Tim Chow

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
From: mur...@compuplus.net (MK)
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 by: MK - Fri, 20 May 2022 23:13 UTC

On May 20, 2022 at 6:16:07 AM UTC-6, Tim Chow wrote:

> On 5/19/2022 9:21 PM, MK wrote:

>> On May 19, 2022 at 7:42:34 AM UTC-6, Tim Chow wrote:

>>> I can tell when you're making an error out of
>>> ignorance ("corpi") and when you're being a troll.

>> I'm proud of you! You've come a long way... ;)

> So have you!

If you mean my being politer lately, I just may have
"regressed" to how I was prior to some years ago.

If you mean my trolling you with my bad Latin (and
good English ;), take a look at sci.lang where I have
posted for as long as here. I have done amateurly
research on Turkish (and other languages) for many
dacades. If you think you didn't bite my "corpi" bait,
you sure must be a fish swimming in delusion... :(

MK

Re: Backgammon as a casino game

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Backgammon as a casino game
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 by: Timothy Chow - Sat, 21 May 2022 15:07 UTC

On 5/20/2022 7:13 PM, MK wrote:
> If you think you didn't bite my "corpi" bait,
> you sure must be a fish swimming in delusion... :(

Right. Just like I bit your Red Big Scumbug and his
ilks bait. Tasty! How many points did you score in
Scrabble when you put down SCUMBUG?

---
Tim Chow

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