Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

If you think before you speak the other guy gets his joke in first.

interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: Rollout: Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?

SubjectAuthor
* Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?Timothy Chow
+- Re: Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?peps...@gmail.com
`* Rollout: Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?Timothy Chow
 `- Re: Rollout: Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?peps...@gmail.com

1
Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?

<t7ftl4$473$2@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=9059&group=rec.games.backgammon#9059

  copy link   Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2022 11:27:32 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <t7ftl4$473$2@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2022 15:27:32 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="079b16ec9f830ae96aab5249a4d4ee04";
logging-data="4323"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1//3QUFF8U5ayz6lNEULTJH4Kl7a3NgEX0="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:8ATdYMJ6HKhvozPRSJ/64bdsB4c=
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Timothy Chow - Sat, 4 Jun 2022 15:27 UTC

XGID=-a----E-C---dD--bcAeA---A-:0:0:1:33:0:0:0:0:10

X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O X | | O X X |
| X O O | | O |
| X O | | O |
| X | | O |
| | | O |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| O | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 168 O: 148 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 33

---
Tim Chow

Re: Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?

<3ca9acf1-0505-4a86-beff-699e1366e397n@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=9061&group=rec.games.backgammon#9061

  copy link   Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:60e:b0:303:9aca:e9fc with SMTP id z14-20020a05622a060e00b003039acae9fcmr12520448qta.657.1654364304132;
Sat, 04 Jun 2022 10:38:24 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a54:4801:0:b0:32e:6a88:b9be with SMTP id
j1-20020a544801000000b0032e6a88b9bemr2579986oij.103.1654364303724; Sat, 04
Jun 2022 10:38:23 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2022 10:38:23 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t7ftl4$473$2@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=217.155.59.144; posting-account=X1j9wgoAAADLt4UnZrIneT3jwl9HvLMd
NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.155.59.144
References: <t7ftl4$473$2@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <3ca9acf1-0505-4a86-beff-699e1366e397n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2022 17:38:24 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: peps...@gmail.com - Sat, 4 Jun 2022 17:38 UTC

On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 4:27:34 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> XGID=-a----E-C---dD--bcAeA---A-:0:0:1:33:0:0:0:0:10
>
> X:Player 1 O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O O X | | O X X |
> | X O O | | O |
> | X O | | O |
> | X | | O |
> | | | O |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | X |
> | O | | X |
> | O X | | X |
> | O X | | X |
> | O X | | X O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 168 O: 148 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 33

Good problem.
Here, we are behind in the pip count but not by very much.
We should definitely play 24/18 to make a very valuable point and
blunt some of the opponent's blitzes. Yes, it does reduce contact somewhat
but the race is close enough that we don't have a desperate need to hit.

I think that no, losing the 8 point to make the 5 point is less of a pay increase
than making a totally new point. I want an inner board point.
24/18 6/3(2).

Paul

Rollout: Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?

<t7kqt0$41r$1@dont-email.me>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=9065&group=rec.games.backgammon#9065

  copy link   Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Rollout: Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 08:11:08 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 103
Message-ID: <t7kqt0$41r$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t7ftl4$473$2@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:11:12 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="07d69d8a3594887ae4ce7db236c4fb3d";
logging-data="4155"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18LCz1tBxhB0nWRx/JDcOcAWOc2q42kG64="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:BVxfOpW+aG6UwxUjF4uX2vUklEw=
In-Reply-To: <t7ftl4$473$2@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Timothy Chow - Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:11 UTC

XGID=-a----E-C---dD--bcAeA---A-:0:0:1:33:0:0:0:0:10

X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O X | | O X X |
| X O O | | O |
| X O | | O |
| X | | O |
| | | O |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| O | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 168 O: 148 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X to play 33

The equity difference between the top two plays in the rollout is
relatively small (compared to that of other positions I post here),
but I thought it was worth posting because of Paul's interest in
the issue of breaking the 8pt to make the 5pt. XG approves of
Paul's play of 24/18 6/3(2), though 8/5(2) 6/3(2) is not far
behind. I should also say that when this position arose for me
OTB, the score was 6-away/2-away, and at that score, XG favors
8/5(2) 6/3(2).

1. Rollout¹ 24/18 6/3(2) eq:-0.197
Player: 44.51% (G:9.14% B:0.29%)
Opponent: 55.49% (G:10.87% B:0.39%)
Confidence: ±0.006 (-0.203..-0.190) - [100.0%]

2. Rollout¹ 8/5(2) 6/3(2) eq:-0.227 (-0.030)
Player: 44.56% (G:12.57% B:0.49%)
Opponent: 55.44% (G:16.28% B:1.07%)
Confidence: ±0.008 (-0.235..-0.220) - [0.0%]

3. Rollout² 24/18 13/10(2) eq:-0.259 (-0.062)
Player: 43.71% (G:8.98% B:0.29%)
Opponent: 56.29% (G:12.92% B:0.52%)
Confidence: ±0.013 (-0.272..-0.246) - [0.0%]

4. Rollout² 24/18 8/5(2) eq:-0.285 (-0.088)
Player: 42.40% (G:8.97% B:0.25%)
Opponent: 57.60% (G:11.73% B:0.46%)
Confidence: ±0.013 (-0.299..-0.272) - [0.0%]

¹ 5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

² 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

----
6a2a
----

XGID=-a----E-C---dD--bcAeA---A-:0:0:1:33:1:5:0:7:10

X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:1 O:5 7 pt.(s) match.
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O O X | | O X X |
| X O O | | O |
| X O | | O |
| X | | O |
| | | O |
| |BAR| |
| | | X |
| O | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X |
| O X | | X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 168 O: 148 X-O: 1-5/7
Cube: 1
X to play 33

1. Rollout¹ 8/5(2) 6/3(2) eq:+0.002
Player: 44.90% (G:12.75% B:0.36%)
Opponent: 55.10% (G:17.82% B:2.25%)
Confidence: ±0.007 (-0.005..+0.009) - [100.0%]

2. Rollout¹ 24/18 6/3(2) eq:-0.034 (-0.036)
Player: 44.38% (G:9.78% B:0.24%)
Opponent: 55.62% (G:12.45% B:1.08%)
Confidence: ±0.006 (-0.040..-0.027) - [0.0%]

¹ 5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release, MET: Kazaross XG2

---
Tim Chow

Re: Rollout: Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?

<8f35cc7e-4281-4bf1-bf2f-e3b8b8605b00n@googlegroups.com>

  copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/interests/article-flat.php?id=9067&group=rec.games.backgammon#9067

  copy link   Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
X-Received: by 2002:ae9:e011:0:b0:6a6:a5c6:cafe with SMTP id m17-20020ae9e011000000b006a6a5c6cafemr13822008qkk.717.1654606051214;
Tue, 07 Jun 2022 05:47:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:2126:b0:32e:b552:2d58 with SMTP id
r38-20020a056808212600b0032eb5522d58mr1858868oiw.119.1654606050969; Tue, 07
Jun 2022 05:47:30 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!pasdenom.info!nntpfeed.proxad.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2022 05:47:30 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t7kqt0$41r$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=217.155.59.144; posting-account=X1j9wgoAAADLt4UnZrIneT3jwl9HvLMd
NNTP-Posting-Host: 217.155.59.144
References: <t7ftl4$473$2@dont-email.me> <t7kqt0$41r$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <8f35cc7e-4281-4bf1-bf2f-e3b8b8605b00n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Rollout: Another one for Paul: break the 8pt to make the 5pt?
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2022 12:47:31 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: peps...@gmail.com - Tue, 7 Jun 2022 12:47 UTC

On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 1:11:14 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> XGID=-a----E-C---dD--bcAeA---A-:0:0:1:33:0:0:0:0:10
>
> X:Player 1 O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O O X | | O X X |
> | X O O | | O |
> | X O | | O |
> | X | | O |
> | | | O |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | X |
> | O | | X |
> | O X | | X |
> | O X | | X |
> | O X | | X O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 168 O: 148 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X to play 33
> The equity difference between the top two plays in the rollout is
> relatively small (compared to that of other positions I post here),
> but I thought it was worth posting because of Paul's interest in
> the issue of breaking the 8pt to make the 5pt. XG approves of
> Paul's play of 24/18 6/3(2), though 8/5(2) 6/3(2) is not far
> behind. I should also say that when this position arose for me
> OTB, the score was 6-away/2-away, and at that score, XG favors
> 8/5(2) 6/3(2).

At 6A 2A, the issue doesn't seem clear enough to me for me to be able
to know what I would have played.
However, I certainly see that 8/5(2) 6/3(2) is a better play at that
score than in the money variantization.
Since we are likely to cube anyway, we don't care that much about losing a gammon,
so the solidity and anti-blitzabilityishness of 24/18 is less attractive.
Also, as significant trailers, the gammon is worth more to us than normal and grabbing
two inner board points makes us more gammonlessnessless (the two "less"'s make
a double negative which makes a positive - it's a Rowan Atkinson trick.)

Paul

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.8
clearnet tor