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interests / rec.games.backgammon / Re: I expect people to disagree with this post

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* I expect people to disagree with this postpeps...@gmail.com
`* Re: I expect people to disagree with this postTimothy Chow
 `- Re: I expect people to disagree with this postpeps...@gmail.com

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I expect people to disagree with this post

<9870c626-7930-4d51-a609-2b1a79bf5736n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: I expect people to disagree with this post
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Sat, 9 Jul 2022 09:32 UTC

For one thing, the title doesn't indicate the subject matter.
And it could be said to be a cutesy title or whatever.

If I do have a point (which is highly debatable [and I don't mean
a point in the backgammon sense]), then it is that I (but probably
no one else does) consider the below position to be a great reference
position.
It's a marginal pass so I can take comfortably with any improvement.
For example, it must be an easy take if I shift my 3 point checkers backwards to own the 4 point instead of the 3 point.
I think it makes a nice simple reference position.
But I expect lots of objections (hence the title).
There's an obvious Stickism here in the assertion that 0.035 is an
absolute monster pass, and it shows my grotesque ignorance
and incompetence that I consider such positions marginal.
After all, suppose we were playing for $10 million a point.
Then losing 0.035 sheds $350,000 equity.
In this time of austerity, how can I possibly be so insensitive
as to imply that losing $350,000 is an insignificant loss?
Shame on me!

And Tim might say that a) The position is not easy to remember.
and b) Similar positions don't occur often.

I was surprised at the rollout and was (wrongly) totally confident in
my take.

Paul

XGID=-b-B--E-B---cD-aaa-cb-b-AA:0:0:-1:00:1:4:3:0:10
X:eXtremeGammon O:Daniel

Score is X:4 O:1. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O | | O O X |
| X O | | O O X |
| X | | O |
| | | O |
| | | O |
| |BAR| |
| | O | |
| O | | |
| O | | X |
| O | | X X X |
| O X X X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 148 O: 153 X-O: 4-1
Cube: 1
X on roll, cube action

Analyzed in Rollout
No double
Player Winning Chances: 68.93% (G:31.00% B:1.42%)
Opponent Winning Chances: 31.07% (G:7.99% B:0.47%)
Double/Take
Player Winning Chances: 68.96% (G:33.33% B:1.44%)
Opponent Winning Chances: 31.04% (G:8.53% B:0.53%)

Cubeless Equities: No Double=+0.618, Double=+1.272

Cubeful Equities:
No double: +0.832 (-0.168)
Double/Take: +1.035 (+0.035)
Double/Pass: +1.000

Best Cube action: Double / Pass

Rollout:
1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
Confidence No Double: ± 0.010 (+0.822..+0.842)
Confidence Double: ± 0.016 (+1.019..+1.051)

Double Decision confidence: 100.0%
Take Decision confidence: 100.0%

Duration: 38 minutes 23 seconds

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.10

Re: I expect people to disagree with this post

<tad6ie$160rf$1@dont-email.me>

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: I expect people to disagree with this post
Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 20:30:04 -0400
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In-Reply-To: <9870c626-7930-4d51-a609-2b1a79bf5736n@googlegroups.com>
 by: Timothy Chow - Sun, 10 Jul 2022 00:30 UTC

While you're right that I wouldn't call this a reference position
in isolation, I do think that your position can be a useful member
of a *set* of early blitz cube reference positions.

Let's begin with 54S-33A-F-C (54 split, 33 attack, fan, cube):

XGID=aa-B-BC-A---dE---d-e----B-:0:0:1:00:0:0:3:0:10

X:Player 2 O:Player 1
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O | | O X |
| X O | | O X |
| X O | | O |
| X O | | O |
| X | | O |
| |BAR| |
| | O | |
| O | | |
| O | | X |
| O | | X X X |
| O X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 155 O: 163 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X on roll, cube action

Analyzed in XG Roller++
Player Winning Chances: 66.54% (G:27.23% B:1.20%)
Opponent Winning Chances: 33.46% (G:7.26% B:0.32%)

Cubeful Equities:
No double: +0.777 (-0.077)
Double/Take: +0.854
Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.146)

Best Cube action: Double / Take

----------------------------------------------------
Now modify the position by bringing another checker
into the zone:
----------------------------------------------------

XGID=aa-B-BC-AA--dD---d-e----B-:0:0:1:00:0:0:3:0:10

X:Player 2 O:Player 1
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O | | O X |
| X O | | O X |
| X O | | O |
| X O | | O |
| | | O |
| |BAR| |
| | O | |
| O | | |
| O | | X |
| O | | X X X |
| O X X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 151 O: 163 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X on roll, cube action

Analyzed in XG Roller++
Player Winning Chances: 68.85% (G:29.26% B:1.50%)
Opponent Winning Chances: 31.15% (G:6.43% B:0.27%)

Cubeful Equities:
No double: +0.867 (-0.133)
Double/Take: +1.058 (+0.058)
Double/Pass: +1.000

Best Cube action: Double / Pass

----------------------------------------------------
Finally, your position: another checker in the zone,
but the defender has managed to roll an early 55:
----------------------------------------------------

XGID=aa-B-BC-AAA-cC---c-e--b-B-:0:0:1:00:0:0:3:0:10

X:Player 2 O:Player 1
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O | | O O X |
| X O | | O O X |
| X O | | O |
| | | O |
| | | O |
| |BAR| |
| | O | |
| | | |
| O | | X |
| O | | X X X |
| O X X X | | X X X O |
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 148 O: 148 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 1
X on roll, cube action

Analyzed in XG Roller++
Player Winning Chances: 68.42% (G:30.04% B:1.36%)
Opponent Winning Chances: 31.58% (G:8.41% B:0.51%)

Cubeless Equities: No Double=+0.593, Double=+1.216

Cubeful Equities:
No double: +0.805 (-0.185)
Double/Take: +0.990
Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.010)

Best Cube action: Double / Take

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

-------------------------------------------------------

This way, you can gauge the incremental effect of various
common features.

---
Tim Chow

Re: I expect people to disagree with this post

<5be8bb1a-03af-408f-8978-a17fb96dcf25n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: I expect people to disagree with this post
From: pepste...@gmail.com (peps...@gmail.com)
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 by: peps...@gmail.com - Sun, 10 Jul 2022 08:41 UTC

On Sunday, July 10, 2022 at 1:30:09 AM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> While you're right that I wouldn't call this a reference position
> in isolation, I do think that your position can be a useful member
> of a *set* of early blitz cube reference positions.
>
> Let's begin with 54S-33A-F-C (54 split, 33 attack, fan, cube):
>
> XGID=aa-B-BC-A---dE---d-e----B-:0:0:1:00:0:0:3:0:10
>
> X:Player 2 O:Player 1
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O | | O X |
> | X O | | O X |
> | X O | | O |
> | X O | | O |
> | X | | O |
> | |BAR| |
> | | O | |
> | O | | |
> | O | | X |
> | O | | X X X |
> | O X | | X X X O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 155 O: 163 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X on roll, cube action
> Analyzed in XG Roller++
> Player Winning Chances: 66.54% (G:27.23% B:1.20%)
> Opponent Winning Chances: 33.46% (G:7.26% B:0.32%)
>
> Cubeful Equities:
> No double: +0.777 (-0.077)
> Double/Take: +0.854
> Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.146)
>
> Best Cube action: Double / Take
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Now modify the position by bringing another checker
> into the zone:
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> XGID=aa-B-BC-AA--dD---d-e----B-:0:0:1:00:0:0:3:0:10
>
> X:Player 2 O:Player 1
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O | | O X |
> | X O | | O X |
> | X O | | O |
> | X O | | O |
> | | | O |
> | |BAR| |
> | | O | |
> | O | | |
> | O | | X |
> | O | | X X X |
> | O X X | | X X X O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 151 O: 163 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X on roll, cube action
> Analyzed in XG Roller++
> Player Winning Chances: 68.85% (G:29.26% B:1.50%)
> Opponent Winning Chances: 31.15% (G:6.43% B:0.27%)
>
> Cubeful Equities:
> No double: +0.867 (-0.133)
> Double/Take: +1.058 (+0.058)
> Double/Pass: +1.000
>
> Best Cube action: Double / Pass
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Finally, your position: another checker in the zone,
> but the defender has managed to roll an early 55:
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> XGID=aa-B-BC-AAA-cC---c-e--b-B-:0:0:1:00:0:0:3:0:10
>
> X:Player 2 O:Player 1
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O | | O O X |
> | X O | | O O X |
> | X O | | O |
> | | | O |
> | | | O |
> | |BAR| |
> | | O | |
> | | | |
> | O | | X |
> | O | | X X X |
> | O X X X | | X X X O |
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 148 O: 148 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 1
> X on roll, cube action
> Analyzed in XG Roller++
> Player Winning Chances: 68.42% (G:30.04% B:1.36%)
> Opponent Winning Chances: 31.58% (G:8.41% B:0.51%)
>
> Cubeless Equities: No Double=+0.593, Double=+1.216
>
> Cubeful Equities:
> No double: +0.805 (-0.185)
> Double/Take: +0.990
> Double/Pass: +1.000 (+0.010)
>
> Best Cube action: Double / Take
>
> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

Thanks for explaining how the evaluation changes. The final position is not mine, but close to mine.
You transferred one of my checkers from my midpoint to my 8 point.
Sine the 8 point is better than the mid point for the spare, we improve my
position (thank you so much!!) from a marginal pass to a possible take.

Paul

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