novaBBS - rec.games.backgammon - Where to leave your blot(s)?

Where to leave your blot(s)?

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Where to leave your blot(s)?
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2022 08:46:42 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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by: Timothy Chow - Sat, 27 Aug 2022 12:46 UTC

XGID=-a--BaC-C---dD---c-bbb-C--:1:1:1:65:0:0:0:0:10

X:Player 1 O:Player 2
Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
+13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
| X O | | O O O X |
| X O | | O O O X |
| X O | | X |
| X | | |
| | | |
| |BAR| |
| | | |
| O | | |
| O X | | X | +---+
| O X | | X X | | 2 |
| O X | | X O X O | +---+
+12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
Pip count X: 171 O: 150 X-O: 0-0
Cube: 2, X own cube
X to play 65

---
Tim Chow

Re: Where to leave your blot(s)?

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From: ah_c...@ymail.com (ah...Clem)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Where to leave your blot(s)?
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2022 10:50:44 -0400
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by: ah...Clem - Sat, 27 Aug 2022 14:50 UTC

On 8/27/2022 8:46 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> XGID=-a--BaC-C---dD---c-bbb-C--:1:1:1:65:0:0:0:0:10
>
> X:Player 1   O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X           O    |   | O O O     X    |
> | X           O    |   | O O O     X    |
> | X           O    |   |             X    |
> | X                |   |                  |
> |                  |   |                  |
> |                  |BAR|                  |
> |                  |   |                  |
> | O                |   |                  |
> | O           X    |   | X                | +---+
> | O           X    |   | X     X          | | 2 |
> | O           X    |   | X O X        O | +---+
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 171 O: 150 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 2, X own cube
> X to play 65

Slotting the deuce point minimizes shots, but a bold play is called for
here. 13/7 6/1*

Re: Where to leave your blot(s)?

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From: REMOVETH...@gmail.com (badgolferman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Where to leave your blot(s)?
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2022 10:40:19 -0000 (UTC)
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by: badgolferman - Sun, 28 Aug 2022 10:40 UTC

Timothy Chow wrote:

>XGID=-a--BaC-C---dD---c-bbb-C--:1:1:1:65:0:0:0:0:10
>
>X:Player 1 O:Player 2
>Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O | | O O O X |
> | X O | | O O O X |
> | X O | | X |
> | X | | |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | |
> | O | | |
> | O X | | X | +---+
> | O X | | X X | | 2 |
> | O X | | X O X O | +---+
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
>Pip count X: 171 O: 150 X-O: 0-0
>Cube: 2, X own cube
>X to play 65
>
>---
>Tim Chow

I think I'd just play the safe 13/2 move.

Re: Where to leave your blot(s)?

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Subject: Re: Where to leave your blot(s)?
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by: peps...@gmail.com - Sun, 28 Aug 2022 19:01 UTC

On Saturday, August 27, 2022 at 1:46:45 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> XGID=-a--BaC-C---dD---c-bbb-C--:1:1:1:65:0:0:0:0:10
>
> X:Player 1 O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O | | O O O X |
> | X O | | O O O X |
> | X O | | X |
> | X | | |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | |
> | O | | |
> | O X | | X | +---+
> | O X | | X X | | 2 |
> | O X | | X O X O | +---+
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 171 O: 150 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 2, X own cube
> X to play 65
>
> ---
> Tim Chow
I think we really have to fight for our opponent's bar point as this is our main chance to improve our position.
23/18 is a must. Then 13/7 is too loose so we play the only legal 6 of 8/2. Of course, this is dangerous but
you have to take risks when you're a big underdog. We have a reasonable chance of either anchoring on the 18 point
or rehitting our opponent there.
23/18 8/2.

Paul

Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2022 07:36:03 -0400
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by: Timothy Chow - Mon, 29 Aug 2022 11:36 UTC

XGID=-a--BaC-C---dD---c-bbb-C--:1:1:1:65:0:0:0:0:10

Paul correctly discerned that 23/18 is a must, but XG doesn't think
that 23/18 13/7 is too loose.

In the variant, I have moved O's blot on her 24pt to her 22pt, so
that the difference in the number of shots is even more dramatic.
XG still prefers 23/18 13/7 over the alternatives, but only just.

This position is a great example of Magriel's criteria, which all
point in the same direction (bold).

1. Rollout¹ 23/18 13/7 eq:-0.514
Player: 29.48% (G:5.64% B:0.25%)
Opponent: 70.52% (G:26.71% B:1.57%)
Confidence: ±0.010 (-0.524..-0.504) - [100.0%]

2. Rollout¹ 23/18 8/2 eq:-0.559 (-0.045)
Player: 27.45% (G:5.91% B:0.27%)
Opponent: 72.55% (G:26.09% B:1.62%)
Confidence: ±0.010 (-0.569..-0.549) - [0.0%]

3. Rollout¹ 13/7 6/1* eq:-0.632 (-0.118)
Player: 26.42% (G:5.95% B:0.19%)
Opponent: 73.58% (G:30.30% B:2.45%)
Confidence: ±0.012 (-0.644..-0.620) - [0.0%]

4. Rollout¹ 13/2 eq:-0.645 (-0.131)
Player: 24.19% (G:5.14% B:0.20%)
Opponent: 75.81% (G:25.81% B:1.56%)
Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.653..-0.636) - [0.0%]

¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

-------
Variant
-------

XGID=---aBaC-C---dD---c-bbb-C--:1:1:1:65:0:0:0:0:10

1. Rollout¹ 23/18 13/7 eq:-0.565
Player: 28.44% (G:5.79% B:0.28%)
Opponent: 71.56% (G:28.63% B:1.97%)
Confidence: ±0.005 (-0.570..-0.560) - [70.6%]

2. Rollout¹ 23/18 8/2 eq:-0.567 (-0.003)
Player: 26.64% (G:5.64% B:0.25%)
Opponent: 73.36% (G:24.25% B:1.51%)
Confidence: ±0.005 (-0.572..-0.562) - [21.8%]

3. Rollout¹ 13/7 8/3* eq:-0.569 (-0.005)
Player: 28.38% (G:6.91% B:0.30%)
Opponent: 71.62% (G:29.83% B:2.41%)
Confidence: ±0.005 (-0.575..-0.564) - [7.6%]

4. Rollout² 13/2 eq:-0.600 (-0.036)
Player: 24.56% (G:5.89% B:0.22%)
Opponent: 75.44% (G:22.70% B:1.37%)
Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.610..-0.591) - [0.0%]

5. Rollout² 13/8 13/7 eq:-0.642 (-0.077)
Player: 25.23% (G:5.84% B:0.27%)
Opponent: 74.77% (G:28.08% B:1.82%)
Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.651..-0.633) - [0.0%]

¹ 5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

² 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
Dice Seed: 271828
Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller

eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release

---
Tim Chow

Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?

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Subject: Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?
From: bananabo...@gmail.com (Stick Rice)
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by: Stick Rice - Tue, 30 Aug 2022 18:58 UTC

On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 7:36:05 AM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> XGID=-a--BaC-C---dD---c-bbb-C--:1:1:1:65:0:0:0:0:10
>
> X:Player 1 O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O | | O O O X |
> | X O | | O O O X |
> | X O | | X |
> | X | | |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | |
> | O | | |
> | O X | | X | +---+
> | O X | | X X | | 2 |
> | O X | | X O X O | +---+
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 171 O: 150 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 2, X own cube
> X to play 65
> Paul correctly discerned that 23/18 is a must, but XG doesn't think
> that 23/18 13/7 is too loose.
>
> In the variant, I have moved O's blot on her 24pt to her 22pt, so
> that the difference in the number of shots is even more dramatic.
> XG still prefers 23/18 13/7 over the alternatives, but only just.
>
> This position is a great example of Magriel's criteria, which all
> point in the same direction (bold).
>
> 1. Rollout¹ 23/18 13/7 eq:-0.514
> Player: 29.48% (G:5.64% B:0.25%)
> Opponent: 70.52% (G:26.71% B:1.57%)
> Confidence: ±0.010 (-0.524..-0.504) - [100.0%]
>
> 2. Rollout¹ 23/18 8/2 eq:-0.559 (-0.045)
> Player: 27.45% (G:5.91% B:0.27%)
> Opponent: 72.55% (G:26.09% B:1.62%)
> Confidence: ±0.010 (-0.569..-0.549) - [0.0%]
>
> 3. Rollout¹ 13/7 6/1* eq:-0.632 (-0.118)
> Player: 26.42% (G:5.95% B:0.19%)
> Opponent: 73.58% (G:30.30% B:2.45%)
> Confidence: ±0.012 (-0.644..-0.620) - [0.0%]
>
> 4. Rollout¹ 13/2 eq:-0.645 (-0.131)
> Player: 24.19% (G:5.14% B:0.20%)
> Opponent: 75.81% (G:25.81% B:1.56%)
> Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.653..-0.636) - [0.0%]
>
> ¹ 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
> Dice Seed: 271828
> Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
>
> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release
>
> -------
> Variant
> -------
>
> XGID=---aBaC-C---dD---c-bbb-C--:1:1:1:65:0:0:0:0:10
> X:Player 1 O:Player 2
> Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game
> +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+
> | X O | | O O O X |
> | X O | | O O O X |
> | X O | | X |
> | X | | |
> | | | |
> | |BAR| |
> | | | |
> | O | | |
> | O X | | X | +---+
> | O X | | X X | | 2 |
> | O X | | X O X O | +---+
> +12-11-10--9--8--7-------6--5--4--3--2--1-+
> Pip count X: 171 O: 148 X-O: 0-0
> Cube: 2, X own cube
> X to play 65
> 1. Rollout¹ 23/18 13/7 eq:-0.565
> Player: 28.44% (G:5.79% B:0.28%)
> Opponent: 71.56% (G:28.63% B:1.97%)
> Confidence: ±0.005 (-0.570..-0.560) - [70.6%]
>
> 2. Rollout¹ 23/18 8/2 eq:-0.567 (-0.003)
> Player: 26.64% (G:5.64% B:0.25%)
> Opponent: 73.36% (G:24.25% B:1.51%)
> Confidence: ±0.005 (-0.572..-0.562) - [21.8%]
>
> 3. Rollout¹ 13/7 8/3* eq:-0.569 (-0.005)
> Player: 28.38% (G:6.91% B:0.30%)
> Opponent: 71.62% (G:29.83% B:2.41%)
> Confidence: ±0.005 (-0.575..-0.564) - [7.6%]
>
> 4. Rollout² 13/2 eq:-0.600 (-0.036)
> Player: 24.56% (G:5.89% B:0.22%)
> Opponent: 75.44% (G:22.70% B:1.37%)
> Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.610..-0.591) - [0.0%]
>
> 5. Rollout² 13/8 13/7 eq:-0.642 (-0.077)
> Player: 25.23% (G:5.84% B:0.27%)
> Opponent: 74.77% (G:28.08% B:1.82%)
> Confidence: ±0.009 (-0.651..-0.633) - [0.0%]
>
> ¹ 5184 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
> Dice Seed: 271828
> Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
>
> ² 1296 Games rolled with Variance Reduction.
> Dice Seed: 271828
> Moves: 3-ply, cube decisions: XG Roller
>
> eXtreme Gammon Version: 2.19.207.pre-release
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

If only someone would have asked themselves "what's the dmp play?" and noted "clearly 18, 7!" maybe someone would have found the best play.

Stick

Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?

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From: REMOVETH...@gmail.com (badgolferman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2022 19:29:20 -0000 (UTC)
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by: badgolferman - Tue, 30 Aug 2022 19:29 UTC

Stick Rice wrote:

>If only someone would have asked themselves "what's the dmp play?"
>and noted "clearly 18, 7!" maybe someone would have found the best
>play.

What exactly is the DMP and how do you find it?

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Subject: Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?
From: bananabo...@gmail.com (Stick Rice)
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by: Stick Rice - Tue, 30 Aug 2022 19:35 UTC

On Tuesday, August 30, 2022 at 3:29:22 PM UTC-4, badgolferman wrote:
> Stick Rice wrote:
>
> >If only someone would have asked themselves "what's the dmp play?"
> >and noted "clearly 18, 7!" maybe someone would have found the best
> >play.
> What exactly is the DMP and how do you find it?

It jumped out at me from the screen. Maybe you should upgrade your screen.

Stick

Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2022 21:02:41 -0400
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by: Timothy Chow - Wed, 31 Aug 2022 01:02 UTC

On 8/30/2022 3:29 PM, badgolferman wrote:
> Stick Rice wrote:
>
>> If only someone would have asked themselves "what's the dmp play?"
>> and noted "clearly 18, 7!" maybe someone would have found the best
>> play.
>
> What exactly is the DMP and how do you find it?

Are you asking what DMP means? It stands for "double match point."

---
Tim Chow

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From: REMOVETH...@gmail.com (badgolferman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 11:53:14 -0000 (UTC)
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by: badgolferman - Wed, 31 Aug 2022 11:53 UTC

Timothy Chow wrote:

>On 8/30/2022 3:29 PM, badgolferman wrote:
>>Stick Rice wrote:
>>
>>>If only someone would have asked themselves "what's the dmp play?"
>>>and noted "clearly 18, 7!" maybe someone would have found the best
>>>play.
>>
>>What exactly is the DMP and how do you find it?
>
>Are you asking what DMP means? It stands for "double match point."
>

Yes, I know that. What I don't know is how do you recognize it and how
does your strategy change when it prevents itself. "What's the dmp
play?" I don't know what it is if I don't know how to find it.

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From: tchow12...@yahoo.com (Timothy Chow)
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Subject: Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:01:04 -0400
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by: Timothy Chow - Wed, 31 Aug 2022 12:01 UTC

On 8/31/2022 7:53 AM, badgolferman wrote:
> Timothy Chow wrote:
>
>> On 8/30/2022 3:29 PM, badgolferman wrote:
>>> Stick Rice wrote:
>>>
>>>> If only someone would have asked themselves "what's the dmp play?"
>>>> and noted "clearly 18, 7!" maybe someone would have found the best
>>>> play.
>>>
>>> What exactly is the DMP and how do you find it?
>>
>> Are you asking what DMP means? It stands for "double match point."
>>
>
> Yes, I know that. What I don't know is how do you recognize it and how
> does your strategy change when it prevents itself. "What's the dmp
> play?" I don't know what it is if I don't know how to find it.

I think Stick's advice would be to play a lot of DMP matches against the
computer to get a good feeling for DMP play. The argument is that since
gammons and cube considerations are irrelevant, DMP is simpler and
easier to master than money play.

If you've played enough DMP, the argument goes, then in a complex
money-game position, you should at least be able to figure out the
DMP play by ignoring gammons and falling back on your DMP experience.

Alternatively, you could try Stick's suggestion of adjusting your
screen.

---
Tim Chow

Everyone hates me because I'm paranoid.

interests / rec.games.backgammon / Where to leave your blot(s)?

Subject	Author
Where to leave your blot(s)?	Timothy Chow
Re: Where to leave your blot(s)?	ah...Clem
Re: Where to leave your blot(s)?	badgolferman
Re: Where to leave your blot(s)?	peps...@gmail.com
Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?	Timothy Chow
Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?	Stick Rice
Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?	badgolferman
Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?	Stick Rice
Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?	Timothy Chow
Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?	badgolferman
Re: Rollout: Where to leave your blot(s)?	Timothy Chow