In a money game with XG, we both started with 31.
But then XG surprised me quite a bit with 13/8 24/21.
I thought making the 3 point was automatic.

TIL something about opening theory.

Paul

On 9/18/2022 11:56 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> In a money game with XG, we both started with 31.
> But then XG surprised me quite a bit with 13/8 24/21.
> I thought making the 3 point was automatic.
>
> TIL something about opening theory.

It took me a while to understand what you were saying.

XG rolled 31, and played 8/5 6/5.
You rolled 31, and played 8/5 6/5.
Then XG rolled 53, and played 13/8 24/21.

Making the 3pt is no longer automatic when doing so
breaks your 8pt. XG would have played 13/8 24/21 even
if its first roll had been 42 (played 8/4 6/4 of course).

---
Tim Chow

On 9/19/2022 7:59 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> On 9/18/2022 11:56 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>> In a money game with XG, we both started with 31.
>> But then XG surprised me quite a bit with 13/8 24/21.
>> I thought making the 3 point was automatic.
>>
>> TIL something about opening theory.
>
> It took me a while to understand what you were saying.
>
> XG rolled 31, and played 8/5 6/5.
> You rolled 31, and played 8/5 6/5.
> Then XG rolled 53, and played 13/8 24/21.
>
> Making the 3pt is no longer automatic when doing so
> breaks your 8pt.  XG would have played 13/8 24/21 even
> if its first roll had been 42 (played 8/4 6/4 of course).

Oh, another comment is that once your opponent has played
8/5 6/5, you have a greater incentive to split, in order
to avoid getting primed. A broken three-prime might not
look terribly threatening, but for example, it's enough to
make XG play 24/22 6/5(2) with snake eyes if you open the
game with 8/5 6/5.

---
Tim Chow

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 12:59:27 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 9/18/2022 11:56 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> > In a money game with XG, we both started with 31.
> > But then XG surprised me quite a bit with 13/8 24/21.
> > I thought making the 3 point was automatic.
> >
> > TIL something about opening theory.
> It took me a while to understand what you were saying.
....
I deliberately left out some info that would normally be left in,
feeling that that was ok since no ambiguity is created.
For players at my and XG's level, 31 can only be played one way.
And 13/8 24/21 reveals the roll, so no need to state it.

Sometimes the checker play reveals the roll and sometimes not.

Paul

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 1:06:08 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 9/19/2022 7:59 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > On 9/18/2022 11:56 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> In a money game with XG, we both started with 31.
> >> But then XG surprised me quite a bit with 13/8 24/21.
> >> I thought making the 3 point was automatic.
> >>
> >> TIL something about opening theory.
> >
> > It took me a while to understand what you were saying.
> >
> > XG rolled 31, and played 8/5 6/5.
> > You rolled 31, and played 8/5 6/5.
> > Then XG rolled 53, and played 13/8 24/21.
> >
> > Making the 3pt is no longer automatic when doing so
> > breaks your 8pt. XG would have played 13/8 24/21 even
> > if its first roll had been 42 (played 8/4 6/4 of course).
> Oh, another comment is that once your opponent has played
> 8/5 6/5, you have a greater incentive to split, in order
> to avoid getting primed. A broken three-prime might not
> look terribly threatening, but for example, it's enough to
> make XG play 24/22 6/5(2) with snake eyes if you open the
> game with 8/5 6/5.

Interesting analysis. Thanks for this.

Paul

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 8:06:08 AM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 9/19/2022 7:59 AM, Timothy Chow wrote:
> > On 9/18/2022 11:56 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> In a money game with XG, we both started with 31.
> >> But then XG surprised me quite a bit with 13/8 24/21.
> >> I thought making the 3 point was automatic.
> >>
> >> TIL something about opening theory.
> >
> > It took me a while to understand what you were saying.
> >
> > XG rolled 31, and played 8/5 6/5.
> > You rolled 31, and played 8/5 6/5.
> > Then XG rolled 53, and played 13/8 24/21.
> >
> > Making the 3pt is no longer automatic when doing so
> > breaks your 8pt. XG would have played 13/8 24/21 even
> > if its first roll had been 42 (played 8/4 6/4 of course).
> Oh, another comment is that once your opponent has played
> 8/5 6/5, you have a greater incentive to split, in order
> to avoid getting primed. A broken three-prime might not
> look terribly threatening, but for example, it's enough to
> make XG play 24/22 6/5(2) with snake eyes if you open the
> game with 8/5 6/5.
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

XG plays that according to its rollouts. If you're actually playing XG on 3 ply it does not make that play.

Stick

On 9/19/2022 5:06 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
>> Oh, another comment is that once your opponent has played
>> 8/5 6/5, you have a greater incentive to split, in order
>> to avoid getting primed. A broken three-prime might not
>> look terribly threatening, but for example, it's enough to
>> make XG play 24/22 6/5(2) with snake eyes if you open the
>> game with 8/5 6/5.
>>
>> ---
>> Tim Chow
>
> XG plays that according to its rollouts. If you're actually playing XG on 3 ply it does not make that play.

Just now I set up the position after an opening 8/5 6/5, gave the
opponent snake eyes to play (Jacoby/Beaver), went to "Setup" and
chose "Play from position..." and selected the default player
eXtremeGammon. It played 24/22 6/5(2).

Does that not happen for you?

---
Tim Chow

On 9/19/2022 10:37 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 12:59:27 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:
>> On 9/18/2022 11:56 AM, peps...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> In a money game with XG, we both started with 31.
>>> But then XG surprised me quite a bit with 13/8 24/21.
>>> I thought making the 3 point was automatic.
>>>
>>> TIL something about opening theory.
>> It took me a while to understand what you were saying.
> ...
> I deliberately left out some info that would normally be left in,
> feeling that that was ok since no ambiguity is created.
> For players at my and XG's level, 31 can only be played one way.
> And 13/8 24/21 reveals the roll, so no need to state it.
>
> Sometimes the checker play reveals the roll and sometimes not.

Yes; however, the lack of redundancy means that there's no error
correction. At first I thought there was a typo and you meant to
type 53 instead of 31, and you were talking about the 2nd roll of
the game rather than the 3rd roll of the game.

---
Tim Chow

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 7:54:28 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 9/19/2022 5:06 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> >> Oh, another comment is that once your opponent has played
> >> 8/5 6/5, you have a greater incentive to split, in order
> >> to avoid getting primed. A broken three-prime might not
> >> look terribly threatening, but for example, it's enough to
> >> make XG play 24/22 6/5(2) with snake eyes if you open the
> >> game with 8/5 6/5.
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Tim Chow
> >
> > XG plays that according to its rollouts. If you're actually playing XG on 3 ply it does not make that play.
> Just now I set up the position after an opening 8/5 6/5, gave the
> opponent snake eyes to play (Jacoby/Beaver), went to "Setup" and
> chose "Play from position..." and selected the default player
> eXtremeGammon. It played 24/22 6/5(2).
>
> Does that not happen for you?
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

Is the analysis of that move on 3 ply?

Stick

On 9/20/2022 8:35 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 7:54:28 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
>> On 9/19/2022 5:06 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
>>>> Oh, another comment is that once your opponent has played
>>>> 8/5 6/5, you have a greater incentive to split, in order
>>>> to avoid getting primed. A broken three-prime might not
>>>> look terribly threatening, but for example, it's enough to
>>>> make XG play 24/22 6/5(2) with snake eyes if you open the
>>>> game with 8/5 6/5.
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Tim Chow
>>>
>>> XG plays that according to its rollouts. If you're actually playing XG on 3 ply it does not make that play.
>> Just now I set up the position after an opening 8/5 6/5, gave the
>> opponent snake eyes to play (Jacoby/Beaver), went to "Setup" and
>> chose "Play from position..." and selected the default player
>> eXtremeGammon. It played 24/22 6/5(2).
>>
>> Does that not happen for you?
>>
>> ---
>> Tim Chow
>
> Is the analysis of that move on 3 ply?

Yes, the default player eXtremeGammon operates on 3-ply.

---
Tim Chow

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 10:20:39 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 9/20/2022 8:35 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> > On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 7:54:28 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> >> On 9/19/2022 5:06 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> >>>> Oh, another comment is that once your opponent has played
> >>>> 8/5 6/5, you have a greater incentive to split, in order
> >>>> to avoid getting primed. A broken three-prime might not
> >>>> look terribly threatening, but for example, it's enough to
> >>>> make XG play 24/22 6/5(2) with snake eyes if you open the
> >>>> game with 8/5 6/5.
> >>>>
> >>>> ---
> >>>> Tim Chow
> >>>
> >>> XG plays that according to its rollouts. If you're actually playing XG on 3 ply it does not make that play.
> >> Just now I set up the position after an opening 8/5 6/5, gave the
> >> opponent snake eyes to play (Jacoby/Beaver), went to "Setup" and
> >> chose "Play from position..." and selected the default player
> >> eXtremeGammon. It played 24/22 6/5(2).
> >>
> >> Does that not happen for you?
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Tim Chow
> >
> > Is the analysis of that move on 3 ply?
> Yes, the default player eXtremeGammon operates on 3-ply.
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

On Tuesday, September 20, 2022 at 10:20:39 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 9/20/2022 8:35 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> > On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 7:54:28 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> >> On 9/19/2022 5:06 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> >>>> Oh, another comment is that once your opponent has played
> >>>> 8/5 6/5, you have a greater incentive to split, in order
> >>>> to avoid getting primed. A broken three-prime might not
> >>>> look terribly threatening, but for example, it's enough to
> >>>> make XG play 24/22 6/5(2) with snake eyes if you open the
> >>>> game with 8/5 6/5.
> >>>>
> >>>> ---
> >>>> Tim Chow
> >>>
> >>> XG plays that according to its rollouts. If you're actually playing XG on 3 ply it does not make that play.
> >> Just now I set up the position after an opening 8/5 6/5, gave the
> >> opponent snake eyes to play (Jacoby/Beaver), went to "Setup" and
> >> chose "Play from position..." and selected the default player
> >> eXtremeGammon. It played 24/22 6/5(2).
> >>
> >> Does that not happen for you?
> >>
> >> ---
> >> Tim Chow
> >
> > Is the analysis of that move on 3 ply?
> Yes, the default player eXtremeGammon operates on 3-ply.
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

Are you sure? When I do the exact thing you say you're doing it plays 7(2) 5(2) (default player eXtremeGammon). For me, this is 4 ply. When I force it back down to 3 ply it still makes the same play. Maybe your version plays differently than mine or you could have the rollouts toggled on.

Stick

On 9/21/2022 11:07 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> Are you sure? When I do the exact thing you say you're doing it plays 7(2) 5(2) (default player eXtremeGammon). For me, this is 4 ply. When I force it back down to 3 ply it still makes the same play. Maybe your version plays differently than mine or you could have the rollouts toggled on.

The opening book rollouts sounds like the most plausible
explanation, but I hunted around a bit and didn't see how
to toggle them off?

---
Tim Chow

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 7:47:11 AM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> On 9/21/2022 11:07 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> > Are you sure? When I do the exact thing you say you're doing it plays 7(2) 5(2) (default player eXtremeGammon). For me, this is 4 ply. When I force it back down to 3 ply it still makes the same play. Maybe your version plays differently than mine or you could have the rollouts toggled on.
> The opening book rollouts sounds like the most plausible
> explanation, but I hunted around a bit and didn't see how
> to toggle them off?
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

Options >> Settings >> Analysis >> Use Opening Book/Do not roll Opening book moves

Stick

On 9/22/2022 8:13 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 7:47:11 AM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
>> On 9/21/2022 11:07 PM, Stick Rice wrote:
>>> Are you sure? When I do the exact thing you say you're doing it plays 7(2) 5(2) (default player eXtremeGammon). For me, this is 4 ply. When I force it back down to 3 ply it still makes the same play. Maybe your version plays differently than mine or you could have the rollouts toggled on.
>> The opening book rollouts sounds like the most plausible
>> explanation, but I hunted around a bit and didn't see how
>> to toggle them off?
>>
>> ---
>> Tim Chow
>
> Options >> Settings >> Analysis >> Use Opening Book/Do not roll Opening book moves

Yes, that did it, thanks! Specifically, unchecking "Use Opening Book"
caused it to play 8/7(2) 6/5(2).

Quite appropriate that I learned this in the "TIL" thread.

---
Tim Chow