On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 10:20:53 AM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 12:55:51 AM UTC-4, Girl57 wrote:
> > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 11:34:16 PM UTC-4, Girl57 wrote:
> > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 9:51:29 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 5:53:01 PM UTC-4, Elizabeth A wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 5:28:56 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 3:14:26 PM UTC-4, Girl57 wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 12:34:16 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 11:47:11 AM UTC-4, Girl57 wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sunday, April 10, 2022 at 1:29:10 PM UTC-4, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 3:35:26 PM UTC-5, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 2:32:51 PM UTC-5, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, February 11, 2022 at 8:30:32 AM UTC-8, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 6:11:15 PM UTC-5, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 12:31:37 AM UTC-5, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 9:21:54 AM UTC-7, Cindy H. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, February 1, 2022 at 8:38:27 PM UTC-5, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 19. Winifred Jones=Thomas Heath
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 20. William Heath/Hayth (Bedford Co, VA to Campbell Co)=2nd UKN
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 21. Lt. Thomas Hayth (First Lieutenant in Rev. War, some say Captain)=Martha Gilbert
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cindy, I haven't personally researched the connection between generations 19 and 20, but I think your challenge will be to prove that Virginia portion of the lineage. Have you found evidence that William Heath/Hayth of Bedford and Campbell counties, Virginia was the son of Thomas and Winifred (Jones) Heath?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This researcher, for example, concludes that Thomas and Winifred's son went to North Carolina, rather than to Bedford County, Virginia: http://alliedfamilies.wordpress.com/virginia-and-maryland-heath-families/heaths-of-northern-neck/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Compare: https://alliedfamilies.wordpress..com/virginia-and-maryland-heath-families/william-heathhaythe-of-bedford-county/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nathan
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nathan,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have indeed set me up a challenge! Others have made great efforts to research the Heaths of Northumberland without more results than have already been published. Time has also taken its toll. The Parish Registry of Wicomico Church, for example, has been destroyed. I'm glad you pointed out the need to find a connection between #19 and #20 in order to prove that the William Heath/Hayth in Bedford County is the same William as the son of Thomas Heath and Winifred Jones of Northumberland County. I wish I could produce primary sources. I don't live in Virginia where I could visit county courthouses, although many other researchers have combed through them. I do have some sources which suggest a connection.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the first link you sent, I think the writer is confusing two different people named William. The story about the second William does not follow from the first. The first William is the son of Thomas and Winifred Jones Heath. It indicates he "removed to the Falling Creek area of Lundenburg County." (Bedford County was later formed from Lundenburg.) The second William, whose story the writer tells, is the son of John Heath and his wife Mary Waddy. He is the one who went to North Carolina..
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have part of another source, a paper document, titled "Campbell County, Virginia Heritage Book 1781 -2003.." It has a bio of "William Heath, Founder of the Hayth/Hayth Families." Among other things, it says he was born in Northumberland County and "grew up in the presence of the Heaths for which Heathville, Virginia, was named." It notes that he moved to the area that is now Campbell County around 1757, that his Will mentions among others his son "Thomas (who married Martha Gilbert in Pittsylvania County," and concludes by saying that he signed his last Will and Testament as well as his last deed "William Hayth." The bio was written by a man named Lynn Hayth of Hampton, VA.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This next source does list some documents to support its claims. It says that William Heath, born at of (sic) Wiccomoco Parish, Northumberland, Virginia, about 1719, died in Bedford County. His wife Martha was born about 1720 in at of Surry, Virginia. They married about 1739 and were the parents of six children, including Thomas Hayth, who married Martha Gilbert 25 Feb. 1772, Bedford, Virginia. When I clicked on Sources, I found a lot of primary sources, though I wish I could read and evaluate them. When I clicked on "About this Database," I got the impression it is a responsible one.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.familycentral.net/index/family.cfm?ref1=4624:5523&ref2=4624:5559
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the link doesn't work, you can find this source by googling William Heath - Martha - familycentral.net
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think? What next steps would you, or anyone else, suggest? I'm not sure what kind of primary source would show the information I want--or where I would find it. I would be very interested to hear your opinion, and that of any others.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~Cindy
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see what you mean now. So many Williams... I wonder what the result would be if the Bedford/Campbell counties families made a Y-DNA comparison with the Northumberland County family?
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nathan
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > A good idea, Nathan, though a bit complicated to organize. I'm thinking of hiring a Richmond genealogist. I know of a very competent one.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought I would send an update. Because I don't have access to primary sources or the research expertise that many members of this group have, I hired a genealogist in Virginia who will be searching repositories in Northumberland County, the Library of Virginia in Richmond, and in Bedford County, as needed, in order to try and prove the line. I will let you all know the outcome of the search, whatever it is. It may be several months. Meanwhile, I will enjoy reading and learning from the group's various posts! ~Cindy
> > > > > > > > > > > > Many of these Primary Sources, have already been extract and are online at familysearch.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > And also at Ancestry, for a fee.
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the reply. However, I couldn't find online the essential link: the connection between #19 and #20 in the above line, i.e. proof that #20 follows #19. Some secondary sources say it does, but I have to find clear evidence that the William Heath/Hayth in Bedford County, whose will was probated there in 1775, was indeed the same William who was born in Northumberland County and was the son of Thomas Heath and Winifred Jones . Perhaps it's because he migrated clear across the state that Northumberland County lost track of him and that nobody in Bedford County seems to know his origins. If proof of such a connection exists, it's probably in some obscure source in a courthouse somewhere. I'm a little worried because some of those early records no longer exist. For example, the Parish Registry of Wicomico Church in Northumberland County, which would have been very helpful since the early Heaths attended, was destroyed in a fire. Keep your fingers crossed! ~Cindy
> > > > > > > > > > Hello, Group!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I just received the report from the genealogist I had hired to investigate the last part of the line I originally posted above. She did an extensive search to see if she could verify that #20 (William Heath of Bedford County VA) follows from #19 (Winifred Jones=Thomas Heath of Northumberland County VA). She was not able to find the origins of William Heath but did find evidence that he was not the son of Winifred Jones and Thomas Heath. Her search was somewhat hampered by lost records, particularly lost early wills, that would have been helpful, but based on existing records her conclusions are convincing. They mean that the original line I posted above is good down through #19 but is broken after that. Well, you win some, and you lose some!!
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> > > > > > > > > > ~Cindy
> > > > > > > > > Cindy, glad to get your update. I was so hoping the genealogist would turn up something. I've done quite a bit of research in Virginia counties, and it can be hard in the ones that have lost records by fire/during the Revolutionary and Civil Wars. For future reference, FamilySearch..org's research wiki is great about noting, on the page for each county, the county's records status. By the way, the Library of Virginia is fantastic; I visited once, several years ago, and was able to turn up quite a bit. Felt like I could have stayed there for weeks. Wishing you fun, challenge and success on another line!
> > > > > > > > Thank you for your lovely reply and suggestion, Girll57! I agree that the Library of Virginia is wonderful. Some of it can be accessed online, too. Though William of Bedford County won't have all those wonderful medieval ancestors, alas, I'm still so glad I did a lot of research about them and their often complicated families and about what was happening in the various places where they lived. Otherwise, I would never have even heard of Thomas Camoys and many of the others! Doing that research got me very interested in the medieval period. I'm still hoping to find the origins of William, my mystery man, though nobody has had success so far. A real challenge! However, I recently learned that what was called the the Northern Neck of Virginia in the eighteenth century encompassed a lot more land than it does today and at one point stretched all the way to the Allegheny Mountains! So I have a much wider area to search now. I'm also working on a line that stems from Col. Thomas Ligon of VA, but it goes through Buckingham County, which is notorious for lost records, so I'll have to see how I get on.. Thank you again for your reply. I enjoy reading all your posts, and learn a lot from them and from the replies you receive. You contribute a lot of interesting things to this group!
> > > > > > > Cindy, Your enthusiasm is contagious. Yes, what was called the Northern Neck of Virginia did indeed encompass a lot more area then than it does now. I have Northern Neck ancestors, too. Are you researching line stemming from this Thomas Ligon?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.jamestowne.org/blog/thomas-harris-and-thomas-ligon-burgesses-from-henrico-county
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hoping things go well and are somehow able to find more detail on William of Bedford.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > My FitzRandolph family has interested me in the medieval period, too. The "gateway" line I'm looking at contains, according to Douglas Richardson, an assumed but unproven link that has eluded genealogists for decades; I have no illusions about proving the link but am finding it fun to gather as much data as possible. With more records being digitised and more easily available all the time, what's to say that something won't turn up? In the meantime, I'm imagining gazing at the Yorkshire Dales on a bright day, appreciating an ancestral home.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So glad something in my posts is useful. I am a novice, and feel self-conscious asking so many questions. As I have no familiarity with English records or -- much more important -- the society/periods that generated them, it's lots of "hunting and pecking" and very slow going. But so interesting. Others here are kind and patient in dealing with those of us who aren't historians, academics, professional genealogists, or medievalists. I'm trying to keep my enquiries shorter and to the point....but it's easy to get off on a tangent :- I think there are many Americans like me who long to discover their English roots! All the best.
> > > > > > Girl57, yes, that's exactly the Col. Thomas Ligon line I'm researching! He has royal lines and some wonderful medieval ancestors: Bigod, Marshal, Claire, Beauchamp, FitzAlan, Bohun, Mowbray, and Berkeley, to name a few. Here's what I have so far for the Virginia line:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Col. Thomas Ligon=Mary Harris
> > > > > > 2. Joan/Johan Ligon=Robert Hancock
> > > > > > 3. Joan/Johan Hancock=Samuel Hancock
> > > > > > 4. Phoebe/Phebe Hancock=John W. Watkins of Cumberland Co.
> > > > > > 5. Phoebe/Phebe Watkins=Capt. Silas Watkins s/o Joel Watkins and Rhoda Gresham
> > > > > > 6. Joel Watkins (b. 5 July 1776 Buckingham Co.; d. 17 Jan. 1859 Appomattox Co.)=Mary/Polly/Dolly Jones
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have continued the line based on my best research but won't post it here because it's not supported by primary sources. Those primary sources will probably never be found because the courthouse in Buckingham Co. burned down! One researcher has referred to Buckingham Co. as "a black hole."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am sorry to lose the ancestors I posted on my above medieval line, but I'm now going to think of them as my "spiritual ancestors"! I've read so much about them that they feel like family members. Since there are numerous secondary sources which claim that William of Bedford Co.was s/o Thomas and Winifred, I hope some of those people will see this and correct their records. I also hope that the living descendants of Thomas and Winifred will see this; they may not realize they have royal lines and those wonderful ancestors. The above line shows only some of them!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your FitzRandolph family sounds fascinating. I agree: more and more things turn up all the time. I can identify with you gazing at the Yorkshire Dales! I have numerous ancestors from Yorkshire. Like you, I am a novice. Don't feel self-conscious about asking a lot of questions! It's the way to learn, and your questions and the answers you receive are interesting to others, too. Going off on tangents can sometimes lead to discoveries. I'll look forward to more of your posts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~Cindy
> > > > > Cindy,
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm wondering if you or Girl57 have made use of the digitized chancery records through the Library of Virginia's Virginia Memory project (https://www.virginiamemory.com/collections/chancery/faq). With regard to frequent estate and inheritance disputes, they often include enclosed copies of wills and inventories submitted by parties, or at least a brief recitation on how various properties descended to various families. I used them to find a number of interesting details about my McKee family of Augusta and Rockbridge Counties, one of which borders Bedford County, and neither of which are too far from Buckingham County. Notably, the McKees granted part of the land where you can find what was then referred to as "Liberty Hall Academy" but we now know as Washington & Lee University.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Elizabeth A
> > > > Elizabeth,
> > > >
> > > > I have used the Chancery Records Index at the Library of Virginia in the past and found it helpful, though sometimes the handwriting is difficult to read, especially if the document appears sideways! It has worked best for me when I entered only the surname of the person in the search box. Unfortunately, the list does not even allow a search of Buckingham County, undoubtedly because all the records there were lost. There is only one record for Bedford County, and it not about William Heath. However, it's good to know about this Index. I also found French, S. Bassett, Biographical Sketches helpful for Nineteenth Century ancestors. If you're lucky, you may find a sketch of an ancestor there. How interesting that your McKees were granted land on which now stands Washington & Lee University! I remember visiting that university one time.
> > > >
> > > > ~Cindy
> > > I have never used the chancery records but am hoping to get a chance. I have an ancestor who I think was born in Bedford County, but I haven't worked on that line for quite a while. Will look forward to it.
> > >
> > > Elizabeth, I think we must be cut from the same genealogical cloth! I, too, feel like many of the ancestors I "meet" through this work are "spiritual ancestors." At times they feel as real as living persons. And I can't wait to walk where they walked...
> > So sorry...I meant to direct that last comment to Cindy. Asking so many questions and reading so much that I don't know what's what!
> No problem, Girl57! I understood the situation! I think we are indeed cut from the same genealogical cloth in that we use our imaginations to place ourselves where our blood ancestors or spiritual ancestors once lived and can feel their presence in our lives. I'm sure many people in this group do that.
>
> One more thing: In replying to Elizabeth, I forgot to mention another very helpful section on the Library of Virginia website: "The Henley Marriage and Obituary Index to Virginia Newspapers." I have found some significant clues there. All these parts of the website are listed on the Site Index.
>
> You know, I am starting to think of genealogical searches toward ancestors the way Chaucer thought of the journey toward Canterbury. The people we meet along the way and the stories they tell are as interesting as the final destination!
>
> ~Cindy
Absolutey, Cindy! Such an adventure. I've even called individual ancestors to mind during my own difficult times, when I knew the hardships and losses they had been through and survived...especially the very humble folks and those of modest resources. I've imagined them in time of joy or rest. And....on my kitchen wall is an artistic rendering of a centuries-ago milkmaid in London's Cavendish Square. If I believed in past lives....maybe she and I worked together LOL!

I'm also reminded of William Faulkner's observation: "The past is never dead. It's not even past."