A terça-feira, 19 de abril de 2022 à(s) 05:59:23 UTC+1, Douglas Richardson escreveu:
> Dear Paulo ~
>
> You've asked a good question. The root of the problem is there has never been a really good published account of the Savage family, and the account of the Savage family in the Visitation of Cheshire is a bit of a mess.
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> In this case, a settlement made on Dulcia Savage in 1464 by her husband, Henry Bold, which states that her father was John Savage, Esquire, and which indicates that this couple were married by that date. Elsewhere, I note that the Visitation of Lancashire affirms that Dulcia Savage's father was in fact John Savage, Esquire:
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> Dugdale, Vis. of Lancaster 1664–5 1 (Chetham Soc. 84) (1872): 4143 (Bold ped.: “Elena, relicta 12 H. 7, uxor 2da. = Henry Bolde, infra ætatem 4 E. 4, miles 5 H. 7, defunctus 12 H. 7. = Dulcia, filia Johis Savage, armigeri, nupta 4 E. 4, uxor prima.”).
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> In this time period, there were three John Savages, father, son, and grandson, and the Visitation of Cheshire indicates that all three men were knights. This is the reason why I hesitated to place Dulcia as a daughter of any of the three men in my books. For simplicity sake, I will refer to the three John's in this post as John I, John II, and John III.
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> Over the course of time, I've been able to study the Savage family using original contemporary records. I've determined that the second John Savage was never a knight, but simply an esquire. As such, Dulcia's parents would necessarily be John Savage II, Esquire (often styled the younger) {died 1463] and his wife, Eleanor Brereton.
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> There doesn't appears to be a problem with this chronologically as another of John and Eleanor's daughters, Ellen Savage, was married in 1469, five years after Dulcia. That Ellen belongs in the same generation as Dulcia is supported by the fact that Ellen named a daughter, Dowce, a variant form of Dulcia, presumably for her sister, Dulcia. Also we know from a papal dispensation that Ellen was related in the 3rd degree to her husband, Peter Warburton. Assuming that Ellen is the daughter of John Savage II, Esq., and Eleanor Brereton, then she would be related to her husband, Peter, in the 3rd and 4th degrees by common descent from the Brereton family. If Ellen was shoved down a generation, they would only be related in the 4th degree of kindred, which would contradict the dispensation for this marriage.
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> Also if Ellen was placed a generation later, it would make her parents having two daughters named Ellen, the other Ellen Savage having married in 1468 to Peter Legh. I might add that medieval marriage dates should always be treated with care, as some women such as Elizabeth Savage who belongs in the next generation was contracted to marry in 1459 when still a child to a 7 year old groom, John Leeke. Elizabeth was presumably no more than 7 herself, it being the legal age for a contracted marriage had between children.
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> For these reasons, my best guess is that the two Ellen Savages were aunt and niece. The elder Ellen would be the one who married Peter Warburton. The younger Ellen Savage would be the one who married Peter Legh.
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> As for ironclad evidence that John Savage II {husband of Eleanor Brereton) was never knighted, I might refer you to a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1484, in which John Savage III (husband of Katherine Stanley) of the next generation is specifically called "son and heir of John Savage the elder, esquire, of Clifton, Cheshire." Here is a brief abstract of that lawsuit:
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> In 1484 John Toller son of Alice Toller, widow, of London, sued John Savage the elder, Knt., of Clifton, Cheshire, son and heir of John Savage the elder, Esq., of Clifton, Cheshire, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £10.
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> Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/890, image 1075d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/R3/CP40no890/bCP40no890dorses/IMG_1075.htm).
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> For interest's sake, I've copied below my current file account of John Savage, Esquire (died 1463) and his wife, Eleanor Brereton.
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> I trust this answers your question as to the parentage of Dulcia Savage, wife of Sir Henry Bold. I should mention that Dulcia Savage and her husband, Sir Henry Bold, are ancestral to not one but two American Presidents, James Madison and Barack Obama.
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> Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist
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> JOHN SAVAGE, Esq., of Clifton, Macclesfield, Brereton, and Great and Little Barrow, Cheshire, Tean (in Checkley), Staffordshire, etc., Bailiff of the Forest of Macclesfield, Chamberlain of Middlewich, born about 1401–10 (aged 40 and more in 1450, styled “John Savage the younger” in 1418, 1422, 1431, and 1446). In1418 Hugh Turnour, of Ipstones, Staffordshire, granted John Savage, son and heir of Sir John Savage, Knt., and Sir John Vernay, chaplin, a meadow called ‘Hondemere’ in the fee of Chedelton. He married before 1423 ELEANOR BRERETON, daughter of William Brereton, Knt., of Brereton, Egerton, Cheshire, by his wife, Anyll, daughter of Hugh de Venables, Knt. They had one son, John, K.G., and four daughters, Margery (wife of Edmund Legh, Esq., and Thomas Leycester, Esq.) (wife of Edmund Legh and Thomas Leycester), Margaret (wife of John Macclesfield, Randle Mainwaring, of Carincham), Dulcia (wife of Henry Bold, Knt.), and Ellen (wife of Peter Warburton). In 1438 he was pardoned by the king, being then styled esquire and gentleman. The same year John Savage, of Clifton, Esq., Ranulph Brereton, of Ipstones, Staffordshire, and three others owed Roger Aston, Knt., a debt of 50 marks. In 1441 John Savage, Esq.,he gave recognizance to William Troutbeck, Esq., for £100 that he would abide the award of William de Bulkeley, of Eyton, touching all disputes between him and the said William Troutbeck. In 1444 John Savage, Esq., son of John Savage, Knt., Nicholas Danyell, and others gave recognizance to the king for 500 marks as surety for Thomas son of John de Dutton, of Dutton. In 1445 Robert Torfot son of Randle Torfot granted John Savage son of Sir John Savage, Knt., all the burgages, lands, tenements, etc., which formerly belonged to Randle his father in the township and territory of Frodsham, Cheshire. In 1446 John Savage the younger was granted the office of chamberlain of Middlewich for 10 years, from the death of Thomas Wevere, the last chamberlain, at 40s. yearly. The same year In 1446 John son of John Savage, Knt., successfully sued his half-brother, Richard Peshale, Esq., for the manor of Rushton Spencer and the advowson of Checkley, Staffordshire, half of the manor of Dore, Derbyshire, and 20 marks of rent from the manor of Draycot, Staffordshire. In 1448 John Savage, Esq., son of Sir John Savage, Knt., gave a letter of attorney to Thomas Oldefeld to deliver seisin to Sir Thomas Stanley, Knt., and others of all the manors, messuages, lands, tenements, etc., which he had within the county of Chester. In 1457 Humphrey Swynarton [Swinnerton], Gent., of Swinnerton, Staffordshire, sued John Savage the elder, Esq., of Clifton, Cheshire, John Savage the younger, Esq., of Maxfield, Cheshire, and Peter Dombylle, Gent., of Great Barrow, Cheshire, in the Court of King’s Bench regarding a conspiracy between them which caused the said Humphrey to be arrested and lodged in the gaol at Chester. The same year John Savage and Thomas Stanley, Esqs., were granted the office of chamberlain of Middlewich for a term of 24 years. In 1461 John Savage, Esq., was appointed surveyor of the castles, lordships, manors, etc. in the counties of Chester and Flint, and in the lordship of Denbigh. The same year John Savage the younger, Esq., and John his son were granted a lease of the water mills of Macclesfield, Cheshire for a term of 16 years. The same year John Savage, Esq., and John his son were granted a lease of the office of Chamberlain of Middlewich for a term of 16 years. JOHN SAVAGE, Esq., died 29 June 1463.
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> References:
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> Ormerod, Hist. of Chester 1 (1819): 525–529,, 2 (1819): 185; 3 (1819): 51 (Brereton ped.). Annual Rpt. of the Deputy Keeper 37 (1876): 637–647. Earwaker, East Cheshire 1 (1877): 188. Beamont, Acct. of the Ancient Town of Frodsham (1881): 170–188. Ormerod Hist. of Chester 1 (1882): 713. Glover et al., Vis. of Cheshire 1580, 1566, 1533 & 1591 (H.S..P. 18) (1882): 202–204 (Savage ped.: “Sr John Savage of Clifton. = Elenor d. to Sr Will’m Brereton.”). Eedes,Cheshire Peds. (1882): 428–429 (Savage ped.). Ormerod, Hist. of Chester 1 (1882): 711–717. Wrottesley Staffordshire Suits: Plea Rolls (Colls.. Hist. Staffs. n.s. 3) (1900): 171, 173–175, 177, 225. Wrottesley, Peds. from the Plea Rolls (1905): 379. C.P.R. 1436–1441 (1907): 184. Chetwynd, Hist. of Pirehill Hundred 1 (Colls. Hist. Staffs. n.s. 12) (1909): 139–144; 2 (Colls. Hist. Staffs. 3rd Ser. 1914) (1914): 4–5. White, Paynes of Hamilton: A Gen & Biog. Rec. (1912): 212–223. Vernon, Middlewich Chartulary 1 (Chetham Soc. n.s. 105) (1941): 55. Clayton & Bennett, Admin. of the County Palatine of Chester, 1442–1485 (Chetham Soc. 3rd Ser. 35) (1990): 179–181, 193. VCH Stafford 7 (1996): 225. Biancalana, Fee Tail & the Common Recovery in Medieval England (2001): 391–392. Cheshire Archives & Local Studies: Cholmondeley of Cholmondeley, DCH/E/287; DCH/E/288; DCH/F/133; DCH/F/134; DCH/F/863 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). Cheshire Archives & Local Studies: The Downes Deeds, DDS 2/1 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). National Archives, C 146/4260; C 241/228/73; DCH/E/289; E 40/11198 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk).
Thanks for this, Douglas.