On Wednesday, 20 April 2022 at 11:42:22 UTC+1, Paulo Ricardo Canedo wrote:
> A quarta-feira, 20 de abril de 2022 à(s) 02:04:59 UTC+1, Brad Verity escreveu:
> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:59:23 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> > > Dear Paulo ~
> > >
> > > You've asked a good question. The root of the problem is there has never been a really good published account of the Savage family, and the account of the Savage family in the Visitation of Cheshire is a bit of a mess.
> > Dear Douglas,
> >
> > I don't know that I'd categorize the 1882 Savage pedigree edited by John Paul Rylands as "a bit of a mess":
> > https://archive.org/details/visitationofches00glov/page/202/mode/2up
> >
> > It assigns nine sons and six daughters to Sir John Savage (c.1423-1495) and his wife Katherine Stanley. As Todd Whitesides pointed out in his July 2005 post, "The monument of Sir John Savage (d. 1495) and Katherine Stanley [in the Church of St Michael in Macclesfield] shows them with six grown daughters":
> > https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/iUKIpJz8L_c/m/FzoJW0OZl3MJ
> >
> > Whitesides pointed out that the 1882 Helsby edition of Ormerod's 'History of Cheshire' names five of the six daughters: 1) Ellen Savage, wife of Peter Legh of Lyme; 2) Katharine Savage, wife of Thomas Legh of Adlington; 3) Margaret Savage, wife of Sir Edmund Trafford of Trafford; 4) Alice Savage, wife of Roger Pilkington; 5) Elizabeth Savage, wife of John Leke of Sutton in the Dale [p. 713]:
> > https://books.google.ca/books?id=DYY1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PP13&dq=history+of+the+county+palatine+and+city+of+chester+by+Helsby&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Mq3VUf24HsSciAL174CYDQ#v=onepage&q=history%20of%20the%20county%20palatine%20and%20city%20of%20chester%20by%20Helsby&f=false
> >
> > Whitesides assumed that the sixth daughter was Dulcia Savage, wife of Sir Henry Bold. But the 1882 pedigree by Rylands has ".... vxr Sr Thos Waterton" as the sixth daughter. It's possible this is an error -- Sir Robert Waterton of Walton Hall (1478-1541) was married to Muriel Leke, granddaughter of Sir John Savage (c.1423-1495) and Katherine Stanley, being a dau of their dau Elizabeth (Savage) Leke -- but contemporary 15th-century records should be checked before this Waterton-Savage marriage can be eliminated as an error in the 1882 Savage pedigree by Rylands.
> > > In this case, a settlement made on Dulcia Savage in 1464 by her husband, Henry Bold, which states that her father was John Savage, Esquire,
> > The October 1464 marriage settlement was made on Dulcia by her father-in-law Richard Bold (later Sir Richard, d. 1487) and by his father Sir Henry Bold (d. before 1479), not by her husband.
> > > and which indicates that this couple were married by that date.
> > It is clear from the wording of the settlement, specifically regarding the reversion of the lands settled on Dulcia, that she and her husband Henry Bold did not have any issue in October 1464, so their marriage would have taken place at the time of, or very shortly prior, to the settlement. In other words, it was not a settlement made several years after their marriage, a possibility that your phrase "by that date" left open.
> > > Elsewhere, I note that the Visitation of Lancashire affirms that Dulcia Savage's father was in fact John Savage, Esquire:
> > > Dugdale, Vis. of Lancaster 1664–5 1 (Chetham Soc. 84) (1872): 4143 (Bold ped.: “Elena, relicta 12 H. 7, uxor 2da. = Henry Bolde, infra ætatem 4 E. 4, miles 5 H. 7, defunctus 12 H. 7. = Dulcia, filia Johis Savage, armigeri, nupta 4 E. 4, uxor prima.”).
> > Yes.
> > > In this time period, there were three John Savages, father, son, and grandson, and the Visitation of Cheshire indicates that all three men were knights. This is the reason why I hesitated to place Dulcia as a daughter of any of the three men in my books.
> > It is? Yet in none of your books do you indicate this. Your opinion that the Savage pedigree from the 1882 Visitation volume is "a bit of a mess" has never been published, or even public, until today on this newsgroup.
> > > For simplicity sake, I will refer to the three John's in this post as John I, John II, and John III.
> > OK.
> > > Over the course of time, I've been able to study the Savage family using original contemporary records.
> > Ahhh. "Over the course of time..." In October 2013, Marianne Dillow wrote in a post, "After my posting on this record , Douglas Richardson has posted that the only John Savage, Esq, in 1464, was John Savage, Esq that married Katherine Stanley that he knows of":
> > https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/IdbjvoXpemI/m/PuGa3rRUy4YJ
> >
> > So your "over the course of time" research occurred at some point between October 2013 and today. My hunch is that it was much closer to today than to seven or so years ago, as it would be very out of character for you, Douglas, to sit for years on important research you conducted on families and lines in your books.
> >
> > But whenever you may have undertaken this research, I do need to credit you for uncovering an important fact.
> >
> > Specifically,
> > > I've determined that the second John Savage was never a knight, but simply an esquire. As such, Dulcia's parents would necessarily be John Savage II, Esquire (often styled the younger) {died 1463] and his wife, Eleanor Brereton.
> > I'll comment further on this when you detail the 1484 Common Pleas suit, below.
> > > There doesn't appears to be a problem with this chronologically as another of John and Eleanor's daughters, Ellen Savage, was married in 1469, five years after Dulcia.
> > Sir John Savage, husband of Katherine Stanley, was born about 1423. Is it possible for him to have had younger sisters who weren't married until 1464 and 1469? Certainly, especially if they waited until their 20s or 30s before they married.
> > > That Ellen belongs in the same generation as Dulcia is supported by the fact that Ellen named a daughter, Dowce, a variant form of Dulcia, presumably for her sister, Dulcia.
> > Maybe so, but be careful when discussing evidence that is merely "supportive". Does Ellen (Savage) Warburton naming her daughter Dulcia support that Dulcia (Savage) Bold was of the Savage of Clifton Hall family? Yes. But Ellen Warburton may have named her daughter after a niece she was close to, as easily as naming her after a sister.
> >
> > Sir Richard Bold (d. by 1487), the father-in-law of Dulcia (Savage) Bold, in June 1482, before setting out for Scotland, "enfeoffed James Stanley, archdeacon of Chester, and others of all his lands in Lancashire to provide for his son and heir Henry and Henry's son Richard until this last should be 20 years of age (Dods. MSS. cxlii, n. 104, 123)":
> > https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/lancs/vol3/pp402-409#fnn52
> >
> > The fact that Rev. James Stanley, Archdeacon of Chester (c.1441-1485) was named as a feoffee by Sir Richard Bold in 1482 to provide for his son Henry Bold and grandson Richard Bold, is "supportive" evidence that Henry Bold's wife Dulcia was the niece of Archdeacon Stanley, and her son and heir Richard Bold was the Archdeacon's great-nephew.
> > > Also we know from a papal dispensation that Ellen was related in the 3rd degree to her husband, Peter Warburton. Assuming that Ellen is the daughter of John Savage II, Esq., and Eleanor Brereton, then she would be related to her husband, Peter, in the 3rd and 4th degrees by common descent from the Brereton family. If Ellen was shoved down a generation, they would only be related in the 4th degree of kindred, which would contradict the dispensation for this marriage.
> > >
> > > Also if Ellen was placed a generation later, it would make her parents having two daughters named Ellen, the other Ellen Savage having married in 1468 to Peter Legh. I might add that medieval marriage dates should always be treated with care, as some women such as Elizabeth Savage who belongs in the next generation was contracted to marry in 1459 when still a child to a 7 year old groom, John Leeke. Elizabeth was presumably no more than 7 herself, it being the legal age for a contracted marriage had between children.
> > >
> > > For these reasons, my best guess is that the two Ellen Savages were aunt and niece. The elder Ellen would be the one who married Peter Warburton.. The younger Ellen Savage would be the one who married Peter Legh.
> > Yes, agreed that Ellen (Savage) Warburton was the aunt, not the sister, of Ellen (Savage) Legh. The papal dispensation referral to the 3rd degree of relationship is strong evidence for that.
> > > As for ironclad evidence that John Savage II {husband of Eleanor Brereton) was never knighted, I might refer you to a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1484, in which John Savage III (husband of Katherine Stanley) of the next generation is specifically called "son and heir of John Savage the elder, esquire, of Clifton, Cheshire." Here is a brief abstract of that lawsuit:
> > >
> > > In 1484 John Toller son of Alice Toller, widow, of London, sued John Savage the elder, Knt., of Clifton, Cheshire, son and heir of John Savage the elder, Esq., of Clifton, Cheshire, in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £10.
> > >
> > > Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/890, image 1075d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/R3/CP40no890/bCP40no890dorses/IMG_1075.htm).
> > OK, this is the key piece of evidence, Douglas. "Ironclad" yes - nice work. John Savage, the husband of Eleanor Brereton, was never knighted.
> >
> > So the "John Savage esq", father of Dulcia (Savage) Bold in October 1464, need no longer by necessity be John Savage (c.1423-1495), husband of Katherine Stanley. It could refer to his father John Savage (c.1400-1463), husband of Eleanor Brereton.
> >
> > The father John Savage (your John Savage II) died fifteen months before the October 1464 marriage settlement. So if he was Dulcia's father, would the settlement have indicated that he was deceased?
> > > For interest's sake, I've copied below my current file account of John Savage, Esquire (died 1463) and his wife, Eleanor Brereton.
> > >
> > > I trust this answers your question as to the parentage of Dulcia Savage, wife of Sir Henry Bold.
> > I don't think it answers it one way or the other. It eliminates the certainty that, because of the wording in the 1464 marriage settlement, Sir John Savage (c.1423-1495) had to have been Dulcia (Savage) Bold's father.
> >
> > But eliminating that certainty does not mean that the other alternative for her father, John Savage (c.1400-1463), is now the necessary solution.
> >
> > It simply means that both father and son John Savages are potentially the father of Dulcia Bold.
> > > I should mention that Dulcia Savage and her husband, Sir Henry Bold, are ancestral to not one but two American Presidents, James Madison and Barack Obama.
> > I don't yet have either of these lines - Madison or Obama - in my database. But am I correct in understanding that the only known line from Edward I for Obama is if Dulcia (Savage) Bold was the daughter of Katherine (Stanley) Savage? No other lines for Obama back to Edward I have been traced? How about for James Madison, any other Edward I lines of descent?
> > > Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist
> > LOL
> >
> > Cheers, ----Brad, SGM Participant
> Thanks for this, Brad.