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Re: Pay now? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Hour 24 Minutes ago by: atila...@gmail.com

XGID=----BbE-BB--cB--Bd-ca--b--:0:0:1:43:0:0:3:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver Pip count X: 130 O: 138 X-O: 0-0 Cube: 1 X to play 43 1. Rollout¹ 13/10 13/9 eq:+0,

Re: I couldn't understand O'Hagan's accent (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Hour 37 Minutes ago by: peps...@gmail.com

No, I don't know the number of MLS for a recube. Hopefully, Tim will tell me. Is the above position an initial cube? (For some reason, I have never found a way to set up positions with XG. When I post positions, they are always position

Re: Rollout: 4-away/5-away cube action (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Hour 52 Minutes ago by: atila...@gmail.com

You're right, I was surprised too. I quickly looked at the scores one by one for the 7-point game. D/T looks correct on most scores (except 4a-5a, 4a-4a, 2a-? , 3a-?) Maybe not enough to say gammonish. Even at the beginning of the game, th

Priming battle

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Hours 40 Minutes ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-aBBB-BBA--B---b-bbdcB-a--:0:0:1:51:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O O O | | O O X O | | O O O | | O O X

Rollout: 4-away/5-away cube action (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Hours 42 Minutes ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-b--BCB-B--B-B--cc-dcB----:0:0:1:00:3:2:0:7:10 X:Player 2 O:Player 1 Score is X:3 O:2 7 pt.(s) match. +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O O | | O O X | | X O O | | O O X

Re: I couldn't understand O'Hagan's accent (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Hours 31 Minutes ago by: Stick Rice

The easiest thing is O'Hagan's Law is meant for a centered cube, not a recube. While I have stated before the rough number of MLS we need for a recube, I don't know if you know that. (and I assume you don't given your follow up post to

Re: I couldn't understand O'Hagan's accent (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 7 Hours 12 Minutes ago by: peps...@gmail.com

But even hit/dance has > the 25% Ohaganistic threshold. 13/36 * 25/36 > 25% last time I checked. Assuming that even hit/enter sometimes loses market, we get way over 25%. Paul

Re: I couldn't understand O'Hagan's accent (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Hours 51 Minutes ago by: Timothy Chow

There are quite a few hit/enter sequences that allow O to take.

I couldn't understand O'Hagan's accent

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 15 Hours 51 Minutes ago by: peps...@gmail.com

My double below seemed very Ohaganistic to me and I was (wrongly) confident in it, although I was also sure of the take. It's kind of a fairly even game but my shots are very powerful. And there are 13 of them. In what sense was I misapply

Re: Backgammon as a casino game (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Hours 29 Minutes ago by: peps...@gmail.com

.....

Re: 4-away/5-away cube action (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 20 Hours 24 Minutes ago by: atila...@gmail.com

If I were X, I would double without hesitation. All doubles work well and he has an additional 6 rolls to make his bar point, 14 total. He has a good homeboard and enough builders outside. For O, the conditions are different. Ok, it's not

Re: 4-away/5-away cube action (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 20 Hours 35 Minutes ago by: atila...@gmail.com

If I were X, I would double without hesitation. All doubles work well and he has an additional 6 rolls to make his bar point, 14 total. He has a good homeboard and enough builders outside. For O, the conditions are different. Ok, it's not

Can I be the best at a game that I myself invented?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Suppose you are in a match and you are on-roll at a DMP score. (Define "on-roll" as excluding the initial position.) The task is to find a legal checkerplay position which makes your probability of winning the match as close to 50% as poss

Pay now?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=----BbE-BB--cB--Bd-ca--b--:0:0:1:43:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X X O | | O O O | | X X O | | O

Rollout: Hit? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-B--BcD-BaABd----cBb--b---:0:0:1:42:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O X | | O O | | O X | | O O

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day ago by: Timothy Chow

That their estimates are inaccurate by unknowable amounts is an obvious fact. The USBGF definition is fine. My comment was intended only for sticklers, not for you. I don't expect you to know the official mathematical definition of ex

Re: Backgammon as a casino game (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 6 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Ok, I'll engage a bit. I wouldn't choose a cutesy title that long, because I've been explicitly asked to keep my titles shorter, and I am trying to respect that. The point of my game is that every human would lose in the long run -- a gam

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 6 Hours ago by: MK

Okay, what will it take for you to accept that the bots do not *estimate* equity as *mathematically defined* and that their estimates are inaccuarte by unknowable amounts? Especially because traing your steps backwards from end positi

Re: Backgammon as a casino game (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 8 Hours ago by: MK

I find a thread of yours interesting and now you won't engage? How disappointing. :( If you had called it as one of your cutesy stupid threads like "While playing gamblegammon as a casino game, would you eat fish and chips with chopsti

Re: Solving my own construction problems by playing backgammon! (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 17 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

What should not be taken literally is the verdict that not doubling loses 0..002 equity. Of course not. If you wait a roll and double, it will still be a pass. But XG's deductions of 0.001 and 0.002 are sometimes bogus. We talked about

Re: Big advantage and high volatility means ND/T (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 18 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I think my 3s aren't quite as good as they seem. I actually rolled a 33 after doubling (which is not one of the better 3s admittedly) and XG thought that increased my equity by 0.276 judging it to be below the joker threshold. When I'm

Re: Solving my own construction problems by playing backgammon! (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 18 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Yes, I think we should trust the rollout. I trust Rolly Rollout about as much as I trust Roland Browning. Thanks for rolling it out. Paul

4-away/5-away cube action

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 19 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-b--BCB-B--B-B--cc-dcB----:0:0:1:00:3:2:0:7:10 X:Player 2 O:Player 1 Score is X:3 O:2 7 pt.(s) match. +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O O | | O O X | | X O O | | O O X

Rollout: Hit or make the 4pt? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 19 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-a---CC-CaA-dC---b-c-bbAA-:0:0:1:64:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O | | O O O X X | | X O | | O O O

Re: Big advantage and high volatility means ND/T (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 19 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Oh, another thing is that if you roll it out, the size of the error seems to be smaller than what XGR+ thinks. I didn't feel like doing a full rollout, but the short rollout below should give you some idea. XGID=a-BBABBA---------bAbbdBBd

Re: Big advantage and high volatility means ND/T (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 19 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Well, if X rolls 31 then he might not lose his market, and even if X rolls 21 then O can probably take after 11 or 31 as well as 61. But that doesn't change your main point. I believe this reasoning is sound. Redoubling as a backgame

Re: Solving my own construction problems by playing backgammon! (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 19 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Re: Ordering Fish and Chips at a Chinese restaurant (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 21 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 5:19:21 PM UTC+1, Nasti Chestikov wrote:

Re: Ordering Fish and Chips at a Chinese restaurant (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 1 Day 22 Hours ago by: Nasti Chestikov

I never said his comments were offensive. Are you a Guardian reader? I found them a perfect precis of everything wrong with your average Brit abroad. The fact that most British males are fat and bald (even those in their twenties) was

Solving my own construction problems by playing backgammon!

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 2 Days 2 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

A while ago, I asked for positions in money play where ND and D/T are both optimal. It looks like I may very well have hit on a position in an OTB game that answers my own question! Although XG sees a difference by 0.001 or 0.002, it's

Big advantage and high volatility means ND/T

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 2 Days 5 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Here, any 3 that is not answered with a 61 is surely a massive market loser This happens with probability 14/36 * 17/18 = 119/324. This is nearly 37%. So I'm sure that _considering_ doubling is correct. One objection to doubling might be

Hit?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 2 Days 18 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-B--BcD-BaABd----cBb--b---:0:0:1:42:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O X | | O O | | O X | | O O

Rollout: Lots of legal candidates, but Stick sees only one play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 2 Days 18 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-a---BDBBaA--B--aade---bB-:1:-1:1:32:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O O O | | O O X | +---+ | X O | | O

Re: Lots of legal candidates, but Stick sees only one play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 2 Days 22 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

The tempo play duplicates the opponent's aces and plays like a dream when the opponent dances which happens 11% of the time. Playing anything other than 6/1* must be a blajor munder. Paul

Re: Lots of legal candidates, but Stick sees only one play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 2 Days 22 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Oh, I see. We play 6/1* to stop the opponent's pointmaking. I didn't see that actually. I'm not surprised that this play is immediate and obvious for someone of Stick's strength. Paul

Re: Lots of legal candidates, but Stick sees only one play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 2 Days 22 Hours ago by: atila...@gmail.com

We have seen that the tempo play is not just about hitting. It's a very nice position.

Re: Hit or make the 4pt? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 2 Days 22 Hours ago by: atila...@gmail.com

Hitting is not a wrong theme, actually. The problem is that there is no better option to do with six. I don't want to give the initiative to the opponent by playing 24/18. Even with 43, XG does justice to the hitting move.

Re: Backgammon as a casino game (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

Did you click on the link? You have to a use a table stakes MET.

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

That is how bots *estimate* equity, but it's not how equity is *mathematically defined*. It's defined the way I stated above, as the long-term average. (For sticklers like Paul, I'm implicitly using the law of large numbers to define ex

Re: Ordering Fish and Chips at a Chinese restaurant (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Days 1 Hour ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Good description, there! I like the mention that he was "bald" and "fat". Clearly, if he was slim and hadn't lost his hair, his comments would have been much less offensive. Paul

Beware of the pseudo-Axel

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Days 2 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

If I complained that the below position Axelises to an incorrect hold, I might get a lot of responses asking me to check my Isight. After all, it isn't a non-contact position. However, every non-beginner sees this position as a race, and

Another Axelisation

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Days 3 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I suspect most good players would use EPC estimates here, but I Axelised. I was fairly sure XG would take, but not at all sure of my double. My PR was 0.48 for this game. It should really be called my AR instead of my PR. Paul XGID=---

Re: Backgammon as a casino game (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Days 11 Hours ago by: MK

In money play, a mutant cube strategy can raise the cube to 16 in a few moves. After that, it will become a cube-skill-only game but I don't know why would anyone do that unless they can then apply a mutant checker strategy to beat the

Re: Backgammon as a casino game (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Days 12 Hours ago by: MK

I think this is a very promising thread. Let's see how far it will go. With your above conditions, who do you suppose would play? You? Tim? Mocky, micky, shticky...?? In order to save a turn, feel free to elaborate why anyone w

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Days 12 Hours ago by: MK

At the risk of shocking you all, I say thank you for making the effort to post this. It shows that when we really want, we can communicate. Why was it so hard to talk about SPP "in the context at hand"? This is the key. I too admire th

A nice welcome to Axelland

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Days 14 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

With no adjustments, this Axelises to 73.5 - 68 =5.5 so an initial double but not a redouble. I haven't checked the redouble with XG but the thinness of the initial cube leads me to think that XG agrees with both verdicts. Furthermore, be

Re: Ordering Fish and Chips at a Chinese restaurant (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Days 21 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Ok, so my sense of irritation was reasonable, perhaps(?) It was a strange experience for me, which perhaps made it memorable. I was irritated with our fish-and-chips-ordering companion, but completely unable to articulate why. And I'm st

Re: Ordering Fish and Chips at a Chinese restaurant (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 3 Days 23 Hours ago by: Nasti Chestikov

Reminds me of a glorious holiday I had a few years ago in Turkey. We found a very nice Chinese restaurant and frequented it several times. The last night there was memorable, if for no other reason than a loud-mouthed, fat, bald Yorkshi

Re: Backgammon as a casino game (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 1 Hour ago by: peps...@gmail.com

It's not at all clear to me that maxing your equity on a money-game capped-at-16 is the same thing as playing the first game of a match-to-16 correctly. In fact, I would think these two things are different. Paul

Hit or make the 4pt?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-a---CC-CaA-dC---b-c-bbAA-:0:0:1:64:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O | | O O O X X | | X O | | O O O

Rollout: 44 to play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=----a-EbD---bD--Bbacbb----:0:0:1:44:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X X O O | | O O O | | X X O | | O O O

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

You're right that sometimes it can be convenient to say that the expected value of a random variable is +infinity. However, in the context of a game, I prefer to say that the expected value, or equity, does not exist. We're in the realm

Re: Backgammon as a casino game (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

The simplest approach would be to cap the cube (at 16, let's say). XG does have a feature that puts a cap on the cube (in fact, even in "unlimited" games, I believe that XG caps the cube at 1024), but I'm not sure that it handles this cap

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 4 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

In SPP, the expected value does exist and is infinite. Tim probably meant "does not exist as a finite number." There's no paradox about this. Some numbers just are infinite. For example, the number of prime numbers is infinite. Paul

Re: Backgammon as a casino game (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 4 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

XG plays normal backgammon against the customers. When XG wins, the money goes to the casino. When XG loses, the money goes to the customer. It's just normal backgammon. There are no extra "odds" offered. Paul

Re: Lots of legal candidates, but Stick sees only one play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 9 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

You're not wrong. Stick

Mental illness: self-deception, gambling and others are unique to humans.

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 10 Hours ago by: MK

What sets humans apart from other animal species? Using tools? Using language? Other? We already know other animal use tools and language but at less advanced levels. I'm among people who believe that it's mental illness that separates h

Re: Rollout: Hit 2? 2 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 10 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

The difference in plays isn't nearly as much as your rollout indicates. Variance really at work. Stick

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 13 Hours ago by: MK

https://usbgf.org/backgammon-glossary/ defines "equity" as "One’s value in the current game, mathematically equivalent to the expected value". So, then, it means (its "mathematically equivalent") "equity does not exists". Can someon

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 14 Hours ago by: MK

This is so unfortunate. Axel made considerable efforts for moths and posted some calculations that probably only mathematicians could understand but was ignored by all, including the chest-beating mathshitters except Chow who only superf

Re: Backgammon as a casino game (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 14 Hours ago by: MK

What odds will the casino offer? I will play for even odds based on my expected wins based on my error rates. Except that you won't allow human players to exploit XG's "greater ability", eh? :) Well, the world is full of idiots. Some

Re: Lots of legal candidates, but Stick sees only one play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 4 Days 22 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

My candidates are 10/7 24/22 and 10/8 24/21. I prefer the first one. Being pointed at on a low point doesn't seem so unpleasant as bing pointed on on a higher point. If the opponent can't point on me, I'l have some nice shots. 10/7 24/

Lots of legal candidates, but Stick sees only one play

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 5 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-a---BDBBaA--B--aade---bB-:1:-1:1:32:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O O O | | O O X | +---+ | X O | | O

Rollout: Pay now, pay how? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 5 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-EAaCBB-----bB---a-bbbcb--:0:0:1:63:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O | | O O O O O | | X | | O O O O

Backgammon as a casino game

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 5 Days 3 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

The following idea isn't very original, but I haven't seen it. A casino invites customers to play XG for either money or match. If XG rolls the dice, many will (wrongly) suspect cheating. Therefore, the casino dice can be used, with the cu

Re: Ordering Fish and Chips at a Chinese restaurant (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 5 Days 13 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

While a five-point board is better than a four-point board, you'd much rather focus your attention on making the 6pt than the 1pt. If you make the 6pt then even if the opponent enters from the bar, you still have a formidable prime that O

Re: Ordering Fish and Chips at a Chinese restaurant (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 5 Days 15 Hours ago by: atila...@gmail.com

It is important to try to pick up a second checker if it can be done safely but the key is to make sure that O can't get away. (a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush) If the open point is a deep point, slotting is not too neces

Re: 44 to play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 5 Days 16 Hours ago by: atila...@gmail.com

At first glance, I focused on three moves. But all three are wrong. Let's face it, it's a provocative position to attack. Meanwhile, if the cube had been turned, the errors would be as low as 20 per thousand. I guess the key is the opp

Ordering Fish and Chips at a Chinese restaurant

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 5 Days 17 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

When I was a teenager, my grandparents took me and a boy my own age out to a Chinese restaurant. There was a small English section from the menu, and the boy consistently ordered from there. If I remember rightly, it was fish and chips bu

44 to play

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 6 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=----a-EbD---bD--Bbacbb----:0:0:1:44:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X X O O | | O O O | | X X O | | O O O

Rollout: Hit 2? 3 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 6 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-a--C-E-CaA-d-----bcBb-bA-:0:0:1:51:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O | | O X O O X | | O | | O X O

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 6 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

The essence of what Axel means by SPP *in the current context* is that the expected value does not exist.

Re: Holding game cube action? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 6 Days 4 Hours ago by: BlueDice

XGR++ result Not a huge double Analyzed in XG Roller++ Player Winning Chances: 70.93% (G:4.24% B:0.05%) Opponent Winning Chances: 29.07% (G:2.69% B:0.06%) Cubeless Equities: No Double=+0.434, Double=+0.895 Cubeful Equities: N

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 6 Days 7 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Yes, I enjoy lengthening already long words like "variantization" or ""Infinitudinizationness" -- glad you appreciate this. I don't know what Axel is doing because I haven't got time / don't what to spend the time to read what he wrote.

Re: Please show respect for our endangered species (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 6 Days 16 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I messed up the logic. I meant that double/beaver (while wrong on both sides) is better for O than if X correctly holds. Paul

Re: Please show respect for our endangered species (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 6 Days 16 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I think both Tim and I weren't being sufficiently environmentally friendly, here. Beavering is only slightly wrong, and should be considered. It's a big ND/T and double/beaver is better for X than D/T. I was very surprised, because I was

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 6 Days 17 Hours ago by: MK

I wasn't asking if it would be SPP but if "Axel would call it SPP". I'm trying to understand what he means by SPP in the gamblegammon context. Also, would it make a difference if it were a 10,000-point or 4,000,000,000-point match? Aga

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 6 Days 21 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

"leads" -> "needs" "It's" -> "its"

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 6 Days 21 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

In fact, I just googled it and got: "The St. Petersburg paradox is a situation where a naive decision criterion which takes only the expected value into account predicts a course of action that presumably no actual person would be willi

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 6 Days 22 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I disagree with this. In the form of the SPP that I know, the expected value is infinite. This is not really a paradox at all. The expected value is infinite: so what? But the reason I disagree with you is that you can variantize the S

Pay now, pay how?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 7 Days 3 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-EAaCBB-----bB---a-bbbcb--:0:0:1:63:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O | | O O O O O | | X | | O O O O

Rollout: 66 to play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 7 Days 3 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=----BCBA--a-bC--cbbdBBa---:0:0:1:66:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O O O | | O X X O | | X O O O | | O X X

Re: St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 7 Days 3 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

No. The essence of SPP is that the expected value does not exist. When there is a maximum possible value (here, 25 points) then the expected value always exists.

A good priming problem

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 7 Days 4 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

The problem "Please show respect for our endangered species" is actually quite a good one. I have done a rollout. Any chance of getting any other responses besides Tim's? Axel? Blue Dice? And where's Walt when he's really needed? Paul

St. Patersburg Paradox in gamblegammon

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 7 Days 5 Hours ago by: MK

St. Patersburg Paradox (SPP from here on), was mentioned in RGB a few times around 20 some years ago but only once directly related to backgammon. Here's the link for it again: https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.backgammon/c/pnQ1s76ih5

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 7 Days 7 Hours ago by: MK

I feel your pain... :( I diagree. It bore fruit alright but you didn't like the taste and couldn't digest. I see more fruit on the tree waiting to ripen yet... ;) Your reaction is unfortunate. Considering everything, we were doing

Rollout: 55 to play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 7 Days 11 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=--BA--DB--a-cBc--b-ccB-AA-:0:0:1:55:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O O | | O O X X X | | X O O | | O O X

Re: Please show respect for our endangered species (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 7 Days 12 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

A symmetrical priming position is usually ND/T. This position is not symmetrical and the biggest difference, namely the blot on O's 7pt, favors X. If X rolls a 6 now then his gammon chances are very good. I think it should still be a t

Re: Please show respect for our endangered species (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 7 Days 18 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

"lived alone" -> "left alone"

Please show respect for our endangered species

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 7 Days 18 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

They're not dangerous to humans if lived alone, and they're the second largest living rodent. If you do think it's a beaver, don't be afraid to stand up for them by saying so. XGID=-bCBBCC-----------abbdbbB-:0:0:1:00:0:7:3:0:10 X:Daniel

Re: 66 to play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 8 Days 1 Hour ago by: atila...@gmail.com

After 66 has been played in the original position, the turn to move is on the opposite side and the cube decision? The winning chances are 64 to 36 XGID=----BCBA--a-bCBBcbbd--a---:0:0:-1:00:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 2 O:Player 1 Score is X:0 O

Hit 2? 3

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 8 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-a--C-E-CaA-d-----bcBb-bA-:0:0:1:51:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O | | O X O O X | | O | | O X O

Re: Othello Quiz 2022 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 8 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

Nack Ballard finds such problems interesting, probably more than I do. Stick finds them slightly interesting, though probably less than I do. Comparison to writers and mathematicians does not seem right to me. A better comparison would

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice and Men, etc. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 8 Days 4 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

[lots of vague/irrelevant stuff] There is no value for me in continuing a fruitless discussion. In case an interesting idea from you comes up, I will happily (and perhaps even gratefully) pick it up, but otherwise spend my time in genuin

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 8 Days 7 Hours ago by: MK

This is not a good enough answer. Actually it's a bad/wrong answer because we already know that half of the answer is "no". When mutant doubles at MWC > 50%, Gnubg's MWC is < 50% yet it beavers! In fact, apparently a correct beaver ca

Re: Othello Quiz 2022 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 8 Days 15 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

How small would the number be? I would think either 0 or 1. It would depend on whether you would find the problems interesting. If so, I'd guess 1. Otherwise, 0. I like the way people's rankings would change as the technology changes.

Re: Truth in Racing (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 8 Days 17 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

The "long race offset" is -2. If I change it to -2.01, the total error increases by 1 %. If I change it to -1.99, the total error decreases by 1 %. But one of the design goals was not to use fractional numbers. And I am strongly determin

66 to play

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 8 Days 17 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=----BCBA--a-bC--cbbdBBa---:0:0:1:66:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O O O | | O X X O | | X O O O | | O X X

Rollout: Hit 2? 2 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 8 Days 17 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=--a-a-D-D-B-dB--Ad-da-A--A:0:0:1:54:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X X O | | O O X | | X O | | O

Re: Truth in Racing (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 8 Days 18 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I have noticed a surprisingly large number of positions in my games where the threshold is reached exactly. For example, I'm deciding whether to take or drop and the difference (7/6 * opponent's adjusted count - my adjusted count) is exac

Re: Truth in Racing (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 8 Days 19 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

Sounds a bit like the "surface criterion" from https://www.bkgm.com/articles/GOL/Dec00/pipples.htm I like this concept, which is elegant and intuitive, but I think it needs further simplification. Over the years since the Isight meth

Re: Truth in Racing (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 8 Days 20 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

On Sunday, May 8, 2022 at 2:36:51 PM UTC+1, Axel Reichert wrote:

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice and Men, etc. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 9 Days ago by: Axel Reichert

As a crude first approximation, yes. No, but to understand that, you would need to accept or learn some math, and I am pessimistic of you doing either. (-: True, it is a necessary, but not sufficient condition. But I checked the suf

Re: Truth in Racing (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 9 Days 1 Hour ago by: Axel Reichert

[...] Your example is based on Roberties 8/9/12 method, which was typically used without any adjustments. Looking at adjustments only in borderline cases of course will be better than "pure" Robertie, but most likely still be terrible,

Re: Othello Quiz 2022 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 9 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

I would say that the biggest difference is that backgammon simply offers less scope for competitive problem solving, by the nature of the game. One way to see this is to pose the question, how many backgammon problems can you compose wit

Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 9 Days 1 Hour ago by: peps...@gmail.com

XG's 3-ply evaluation is: 1. 3-ply 6/Off 5/2 eq:-0.103 Player: 43.33% (G:15.54% B:0.04%) Opponent: 56.67% (G:0.00% B:0.00%) Like Tim, I was also surprised by how low this is. I think the reason tha

Re: Othello Quiz 2022 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 9 Days 5 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Since the rollouts are the arbitrator, I think the natural way to rank the participants would be as follows: 1) For every wrong answer, give the negative evaluation for that answer as in the rollout. 2) For every omitted answer, replace t

Off topic public service announcement ;)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 9 Days 5 Hours ago by: MK

While poking around on the Internet, I came across some info about rooster eating being bad for people. Apparently some sort of bacteria similar to syphilis that exist on the rooster skin can make you sick like shit and cause neurological/

Re: Othello Quiz 2022 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 9 Days 14 Hours ago by: Masanori Itikawa

Unfortunately, due to COVID-19, the Japan Open was cancelled twice.

Rollout: Containment cube action 2 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 9 Days 14 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-B-aBBBBB----------AbBbbh-:1:1:1:00:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 2 O:Player 1 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | | | X O X O O O | | | | O X O

55 to play

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 9 Days 14 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=--BA--DB--a-cBc--b-ccB-AA-:0:0:1:55:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O O | | O O X X X | | X O O | | O O X

Re: Othello Quiz 2022 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 9 Days 14 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Not that it matters, because I decided not to play 5/4*, but I just noticed that I mistyped something. I mean to say that if I were to play 5/4* then I would go with 21/16. The Othello Quiz problems are posed at a variety of match score

Re: Othello Quiz 2022 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 9 Days 15 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

It seems that I scored 7/10, which may be the highest score that I've ever achieved on an Othello quiz. I see that one of the ones I got wrong was the "easiest" problem as measured by how many participants got it right! Congratulations to

Re: Othello Quiz 2022 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 9 Days 15 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Ah, very nice! So what is the story...was everything canceled the last year (or two?) and are things back to normal as far as the Japan Open is concerned? As for the problems: 1. I got dinged for a massive blunder in a position like th

Re: Hit 2? 2 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 10 Days 5 Hours ago by: atila...@gmail.com

O's 4s are very decisive

Othello Quiz 2022

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 10 Days 18 Hours ago by: Masanori Itikawa

now available http://itikawa.com/fes2022quiz.html

Hit 2? 2

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=--a-a-D-D-B-dB--Ad-da-A--A:0:0:1:54:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X X O | | O O X | | X O | | O

Rollout: Containment cube action (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=--aBBBC-B--ab----c-eB-bBa-:0:0:1:00:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O | | O X O X O | | O | | O X O

Re: An example of a reference system ... unfortunately quite long ...

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

Unfortunately, smcrtorchs stopped participating in r.g.b. many years ago. But it seems that Simon has kindly solved your problem.

Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

Maybe you misunderstood the question? Paul means, what's X's equity after he makes the only legal play, 6/off 5/2? It's a nice question. X has three checkers off already and has decent gammon chances. O has just 21 rolls to hit, and t

Re: Rollout: Make the 5pt and then...? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

In this particular position, I agree with you. X does not have a lot of time to roll a 5 or a 3, and risks crunching. When I said that escaping the back checkers is a low priority in a blitz, I meant that as a general principle that is

Re: Holding game cube action? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

Having two "anchors" that are just two apart is usually not good for the holder. Here, for example, O will probably want to run off her 16pt soon, but will risk exposing a double shot. With a 23-pip deficit, my first instinct is to pass.

Re: An example of a reference system [WITH gnuBG and XG ids]

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 2 Hours ago by: BlueDice

Thanks Simon, very kind of you! -- BD

Re: An example of a reference system [WITH gnuBG and XG ids]

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 2 Hours ago by: BlueDice

Thanks Simon! Very kind of you.

Re: How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 2 Hours ago by: BlueDice

X has a huge advantage, I'm guessing 70%/80% GWC and 25%/35% gammons, equity ~ 0.9 -- BD

Re: Rollout: Make the 5pt and then...? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 4 Hours ago by: atila...@gmail.com

First of all, thanks for sharing. I disagree that escaping the back checker is a low priority in a blitz. There are two different dice to escape, 5 and 3 in the original position, whereas in the variant this number is three. In summary, I

How can you have a checkerplay problem when there's only one legal play??

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 15 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I never said it was a checkerplay problem. The problem is: Guess my (Daniel's) equity. For an easier problem, which side is doing better? Paul XGID=-EDb-BB-a---------acbbbaa-:1:-1:1:63:0:0:3:0:10 X:Daniel O:eXtremeGammon Score is X:0 O

Re: An example of a reference system [WITH gnuBG and XG ids]

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 15 Hours ago by: Simon Woodhead

I've added ids. All positions are assumed to be money, as the OP didn't indicate that this system applies to match scores and match scores aren't mentioned anywhere. This post can be viewed with a graphical board at https://bglog.org/rgbn

Re: An example of a reference system ... unfortunately quite long ...

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 17 Hours ago by: Simon Woodhead

Here's the original post, not munged by google groups... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Example of a reference system. Let me start by saying that this kind of method for learning has worked for

Re: An example of a reference system ... unfortunately quite long ...

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 11 Days 19 Hours ago by: BlueDice

Great stuff! I've only just come across this while searching for something else... I see that you have included the GNUBG ID for the first position diagram but not the others. Try as I might I cannot display the others so that they become

Re: Lost wallet (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 1 Hour ago by: BlueDice

Apart from keeping more contact from the 2 anchor and also stopping opp from dumping behind the 2 anchor, opp may never fill the 3 gaps in front of your anchor before being forced to leave a shot. -- BD

Holding game cube action?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 1 Hour ago by: BlueDice

XGID=--BA--DbCb-C-B---dabbb----:0:0:1:00:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O O | | O O O | | X O | | O O O

Containment cube action 2

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-B-aBBBBB----------AbBbbh-:1:1:1:00:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 2 O:Player 1 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | | | X O X O O O | | | | O X O

Rollout: Make the 5pt and then...? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Re: Lost wallet (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 3 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Thanks for this. I'm surprised, I've never come across this issue before. Positions which look like holding positions except that one side has a 50 point + lead might not be all that common. Paul

Truth in Racing

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 4 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

if your advantage is at least X, double only if the cube is centred. If your advantage is at least X + delta, double whether the cube is centred or not. If your disadvantage is greater than Y, drop. I would think that all racing algos can

Re: A superb Axelisation (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 4 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I think that, even with cruder counts like 8/9/12, it might be a take with more nuanced reasoning. Just calling it a race ignores the contact parlay where XG rolls 22 and I hit. But this is a 1% parlay which isn't insignificant. If using

Re: Lost wallet (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 6 Hours ago by: MK

My latest trial version says 2.19.211.2671.Pre-release (with a capital "P"). How many tial/registered versions of XG are out there? How does who finds what version where? What are the differences between those versions? Any change log s

Re: Lost wallet (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 11 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Whoops...I neglected to post any bot info for making the advanced anchor. See below. I have given X the cube, because with the cube in the center, XG says that X has to pass O's double if X plays 23/21 13/7. If the cube were centered and

Re: Lost wallet (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 11 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

You're massively behind in the pip count so you have to hit a shot, and so you have to stay back for more contact. I'm reminded of the position below from Mike Corbett's book, "Backgammon Problems." He makes the following rather brutal

A superb Axelisation

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 15 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

The position below is not technically a pure race but I would certainly treat it as one, because the contact is minimal. I Axelised this to a correct take. However, my previous methods 8/9/12 and 10% + 2 both give an incorrect drop. Paul

Re: Rarely is the question asked: "Is we learning from MCG?" (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 19 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

It's time for the after-dinner speech by your host: Rolly Rollout I wasn't lying or joking when I said "Clear double, clear take." Analyzed in Rollout No redouble Player Winning Chances: 60.86% (G:44.02% B:0.53%) Opponent Winning C

Lost wallet

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 12 Days 23 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Below, I actually lost 0.537 equity. All I was trying to do was anchor on the opponent's 4 point for solidity. Why is this a worse idea than putting lumps of chocolate into a Margherita Pizza? Thanks for your help. Paul XGID=-----BCBC---

Containment cube action

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 13 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=--aBBBC-B--ab----c-eB-bBa-:0:0:1:00:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O | | O X O X O | | O | | O X O

Rollout: PoH and then...? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 13 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=--ab-ED-C-BAa-----bbbbc---:1:-1:1:44:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O | | O O O O | +---+ | O | | O O

Re: Rarely is the question asked: "Is we learning from MCG?" (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 13 Days 5 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Also, I resulted a bit while I was thinking about this. My next roll after the D/T was 55, and this increased my feelings of insecurity about the double. (Completely irrationally of course). Paul

Re: Rarely is the question asked: "Is we learning from MCG?" (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 13 Days 5 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I (correctly) doubled. However, I wasn't at all confident of this, and while waiting for the evaluation, I was anticipating my double being flagged. it rolled out to a clear double and a clear take but the details are on my other compute

Re: Rarely is the question asked: "Is we learning from MCG?" (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 13 Days 12 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

O has a five-prime and if X does not roll a 6 then he'll be a bit short on timing. Plus X has only a four-point board. Despite the gammon risk, I think this is a clear take. Not sure about the double. I think I would hold off unless I

Rarely is the question asked: "Is we learning from MCG?"

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 13 Days 18 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

The following position (which I solved correctly OTB) seems to be of the type that was addressed by an article Tim posted. Unfortunately, I couldn't remember the content, but I got it right anyway (with no confidence, though). Paul XGID=

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 14 Days ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I once beat XG in a match where XG was luckier according to EMG. I couldn't understand how I beat XG while being unlucky until Stick explained it to me when I set up a thread here. Stick stuck to the point at hand, without using my confus

Make the 5pt and then...?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 14 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

Rollout: Hit and then...? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 14 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-b--BaE-BA--cC---a-dbBb---:0:0:1:21:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O | | O O X O | | X | | O O X O

A construction problem

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 14 Days ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Construct a position in money backgammon where A has the cube and: 1) If A doubles, B does not lose equity by taking. 2) If the cube was ignored and the position played as in DMP, B's winning probability is minimized subject to the constr

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 14 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

This fact by itself doesn't mean much. Take any single match between any players, and with high probability the winner will also have the higher luck rating. I recall that someone took a bunch of Murat's money games and calculated the t

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 14 Days 4 Hours ago by: MK

As an afterthought, this reminded me of a very old and short thread of only two posts; mine and Zare's reply to it (which may have been the first and only time?:) Here it is: https://groups.google.com/g/rec.games.backgammon/c/o4qnefr7Xe

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 14 Days 4 Hours ago by: MK

As I purposefully avoided learning them, I don't know about cube action points/windows. Here is an honest question: from what you say, will I be right to understand that Gnubg will never double with its MVC < 50% and will also never be

Re: PoH and then...? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 14 Days 17 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Sorry but my only candidate play is 6/2*(2) 5/1(2). Why is this play less tasty than those egregious Hershey bars they sell (or used to) in the US? Paul

Re: Making progress through backgammon psychology (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 14 Days 19 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

No, the goal of any challenge is to maximise your probability of winning. Paul

Re: Making progress through backgammon psychology (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 14 Days 22 Hours ago by: Nasti Chestikov

But isn't that counter-productive? Oh dear, I've lost £50k tonight but the upside is.......I played perfectly. The goal of any challenge etc is to win is it not?

Re: Making progress through backgammon psychology (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 14 Days 22 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I totally share the mindset that if you play close to perfectly, it doesn't matter if you get thrashed 15-0. The goal of match backgammon isn't to win -- it's to maximise your probability of winning. It's totally possible to lose 15-0 whi

Re: Making progress through backgammon psychology (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 14 Days 23 Hours ago by: Nasti Chestikov

Doesn't it depend on what your goal is? If I'm playing XG or GnuDung, my goal is to win. If I achieve that goal, does it *really* matter if some of my moves are deemed sub-optimal? I have to say I am difficulty coming to terms with the m

PoH and then...?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 15 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=--ab-ED-C-BAa-----bbbbc---:1:-1:1:44:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O | | O O O O | +---+ | O | | O O

Rollout: Crunch time (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 15 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=a-BCDBB-----c------ccc-bB-:1:1:1:43:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | | | O O O O X | | | | O O O

Re: Making progress through backgammon psychology (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 15 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

I agree with your approach, although I don't know that I would call it non-standard. At least in chess, this sort of thing is standard fare for coaches. But perhaps in backgammon, coaches aren't common even for pros.

Making progress through backgammon psychology

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 15 Days 3 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

"How does accomplished people reach the optimal psychological state?" ** To improve in backgammon, an obvious plan is to play XG and flag the significant errors. But where my approach would be non-standard is that I would give the errors

Hit and then...?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 15 Days 14 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-b--BaE-BA--cC---a-dbBb---:0:0:1:21:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O | | O O X O | | X | | O O X O

Rollout: Hit 2? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 15 Days 14 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-a--a-E-C--BcDAa-babbb----:0:0:1:55:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X X O O O | | O O O | | X O | | O O O

Re: Combinatorial explosion of branching factors in gamblegammon and backgammon. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 16 Days ago by: Axel Reichert

My point was that your "maybe two" is arbitrary. If there is history dependence, then it goes all the way back to the start, so all moves are relevant (which is true for the luck assessment). If there is no history dependence, then zero

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice and Men, etc. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 16 Days 6 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

O. K., fair point, since I kept adding incrementally to my session. Overall, I had 10000 games (with beavers, but no raccoons allowed). I did some independent short sessions with raccoons, but later found out two things: 1. They are not

Re: But no one ever said Magriel was perfect. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 16 Days 7 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

Yes, good point. Some time back I was sorting and grouping a list of larger errors in checker play and was surprised how often the mistake was related to staying back sitting on a deep anchor rather than moving up and trying to "secure a

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 16 Days 16 Hours ago by: MK

Not being a mathematician, I may not be able to do that. Even if a mathematician couldn't point to any errors in your calculations, what would that prove? Can you as a mathematician point to any errors in Ptolemic epicycle calculations

Re: But no one ever said Magriel was perfect. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 16 Days 16 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Yes, in fact part of the motivation for splitting here is that it distracts O from making a home-board point. Generally speaking, the problem I see with any kind of "under the gun" rule is that it encourages you to focus on only one asp

Crunch time

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 16 Days 16 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=a-BCDBB-----c------ccc-bB-:1:1:1:43:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | | | O O O O X | | | | O O O

Rollout: 22 to play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 16 Days 16 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=---abBEBB---cB-Aab-bbb--A-:0:0:1:22:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X X O O | | O O O X | | X O | | O O O

Re: But no one ever said Magriel was perfect. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days ago by: Axel Reichert

Thanks. 32D-62S is indeed correct. So maybe a further qualification is called for, because getting pointed on head on the bar point is less terrible than getting pointed on head in the opponent's home board. I checked the opening book fo

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice and Men, etc. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days ago by: Axel Reichert

Done. Doubles: Usually fine. Beyond that: Easily a Petersburg paradox. I allowed only beavers, because I just needed a distribution about these cube actions. The rest was done analytically. Raccoons etc. can for all practical purposes

Re: Wanted: mathematician for hire on contract by public bid (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

But don't you want to make some fast cash so you'll have more money to hire a good mathematician?

Re: But no one ever said Magriel was perfect. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

There are still plenty of situations where (for example) splitting to the opponent's bar point is perfectly fine even when there are four separate numbers that hit. Below is a basic example where there are even 10 checkers in the zone.

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice and Men, etc. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 1 Hour ago by: Axel Reichert

I do, I did the maths. Feel free to point to any errors in my derivation. Which numbers are wrong? In which lines are errors? Yes. It was the starting point of my mutant experiment. To remind you (quoting here): By the way, in 1

Re: Combinatorial explosion of branching factors in gamblegammon and backgammon. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 2 Hours ago by: MK

I don't understand the question "Why not zero?" And I'm never going to make as stupid as claim that I can understand bullshit but I would guess that if it's more than two rolls (i.e. to avoid a market loser or such bullshit) then one

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 3 Hours ago by: MK

I agree completely. To hell with beavers, raccoons, and other mentally ill gambler creatures. Get rid of them all! MK

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 4 Hours ago by: MK

Without quoting more from your post (that people can more read from), I will say that not only I agree with you on this but I disagree with you about all the critters that follow raccoons. They should all be allowed. Or, in the alternati

Re: Combinatorial explosion of branching factors in gamblegammon and backgammon. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 4 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

Why not three? Why not four? Why not all? Why not zero? I perhaps would if you gave some more precise pointers. Googling above phrase does not yield any results that look like being authored by you. Did you read Zare's "A measure of

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 4 Hours ago by: MK

You have no justification to make this last ass-ertion. The "mutant experiment" I had suggested was in an attempt to simply poke a hole, raise a shadow of doubt in what you guys dare call "cube skill theory". I know it's not fair. It

Re: Combinatorial explosion of branching factors in gamblegammon and backgammon. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 4 Hours ago by: MK

What a most stupid analogy! Bleh... :( No it doesn't. Your ears don't hear what comes out of your own mouth. You just try to regurgitate what you have learned by rote but you can't even do that... :( MK

Re: Combinatorial explosion of branching factors in gamblegammon and backgammon. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 5 Hours ago by: MK

Re: Combinatorial explosion of branching factors in gamblegammon and backgammon. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 5 Hours ago by: MK

Not much cube skill is needed in this position. Luck just allows one player to cash in. That's all. I wouldn't say that at all! How you got to the doubling position doesn't matter except the last roll (or maybe two) that seals it.

Re: Wanted: mathematician for hire on contract by public bid (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 5 Hours ago by: MK

Even in a porposeless/meaningless universe without comparative values, what you wrote is a perfect proof of what a pathetic idiot you are. I don't believe in creation nor in evolution but because of "creatures" like you who surely could

Re: Wanted: mathematician for hire on contract by public bid (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 6 Hours ago by: MK

I am an atheist/nihilist, thinker/philosopher in peace with my purposeless/meaningless existance in this purposeless/meaningless universe. I am also aware that nothing will last forever, nor for a long time or even for a relatively d

Hoppy's Backgammon Challenge (Sacramento, July)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 16 Hours ago by: Bradley K. Sherman

Low vig tournament: Hoppy's Backgammon Challenge 16 July 2022, Sacramento, California https://www.sacramentobackgammonclub.com/store I am not associated with the tournament in any way. Certainly better locale than that depressing air

Re: But no one ever said Magriel was perfect. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 17 Days 18 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

Walter Trice has a reformulated version in "Backgammon Boot Camp", roughly it goes like this: Don't be afraid to split your back anchor in the face of less than 10 checkers. So UTG is not considered, it is rather number of opponent

Re: But no one ever said Magriel was perfect. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

The way I would frame the question is, given that there is so little support for the rule, how did Magriel come to formulate the rule in the first place? Over the years, I've come to the conclusion that there is really just one situation

Hit 2?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Subject line not to be confused with "Hit? 2". XGID=-a--a-E-C--BcDAa-babbb----:0:0:1:55:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X X O O O | | O O O

Rollout: Hit? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=---aB-EbB---aD----abcbbAaA:1:1:1:52:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O | | O O O O X O | | X | | O O O O

Re: An effective Axelisation (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

You don't need anything as sophisticated as Isight to correct the basic error above. This is a not a four-roll position. It's a "pips" position and not a "rolls" position.

Re: In this simple no-contact checker play, would you waste 0.05 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

You're saving the gammon, so crossovers matter a lot more than pips. You're going to need three crossovers regardless. 8/3 means you'll be able to get a crossover if you roll an ace. Ensuring you can get a crossover with an ace is a commo

An effective Axelisation

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Days 3 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

In the below position, it's an obvious take, but I think it would be a struggle for many players to know whether to hold or to redouble. My pre-Isight self would actually wrongly double here. I would be thinking "It's similar to a four ro

In this simple no-contact checker play, would you waste 0.05 equity?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Days 5 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Doesn't 13/8 7/6 look more natural because less wasteful? Who would play 8/3 here? Paul XGID=-C-B--------a----baebca---:1:-1:-1:51:0:0:3:0:10 X:eXtremeGammon O:Daniel Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game, Jacoby Beaver +13-14-15-16-17-18-

But no one ever said Magriel was perfect.

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Days 6 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

For all that Magriel has contributed, I'm pretty convinced (and I think it's been said by others) that his UTG rule -- Don't expose a blot in your opponent's inner board to three active builders -- should be rejected. But what is the reaso

Re: Rollout: When ahead in the race... (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Days 6 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

With 20/14, most rolls will hit, yes. But the rolls we're scared of aren't the hitting rolls, but the hit-and-cover rolls. I'll count them (in the original position, not the variant): 11/12/22/23/24/25/33/35/36/45/46/55/56 There are 22 of

Re: Wanted: mathematician for hire on contract by public bid (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Days 10 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

That's a brilliant idea! I'm sure Nasti Chestikov, chuckles, and Jack Mack will each buy hundreds of copies. Heck, maybe even Alex Choi will take time off from hawking fast cars on YouTube to snap up a few! With all those profits, Mura

22 to play

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Days 11 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=---abBEBB---cB-Aab-bbb--A-:0:0:1:22:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X X O O | | O O O X | | X O | | O O O

Rollout: When ahead in the race... (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 18 Days 11 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-CB-CBC-aa--b----cbcBba---:1:1:1:42:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O O | | O X O O | | O O | | O X O

Re: Wanted: mathematician for hire on contract by public bid (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 19 Days 9 Hours ago by: Grunty

Why don't you compile your threads into e-book: "New Ideas, Reflections And Rebellions About The Game Of Backgammon" by Murat K. (known as "The Gamblegammon Apostate") and have your ego buy all the edition? Otherwise, all that material w

Re: Wanted: mathematician for hire on contract by public bid (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 19 Days 12 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

No, it's because it amuses you. Don't you like being amused?

Re: Any stats about the frequency of backgammon positions? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 19 Days 12 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

If your sock puppet talks, it's only common courtesy to respond!

Re: Wanted: mathematician for hire on contract by public bid (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 19 Days 14 Hours ago by: Simon Woodhead

It's a give and take thing, Murat. If you weren't spiteful, others wouldn't be spiteful to you. It's something kids learn but seems to have passed you by.

Re: Wanted: mathematician for hire on contract by public bid (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 19 Days 16 Hours ago by: MK

You look like a little kid who tries to fart like daddy and ends up soiling his diaper. :( I am pityingly amused. :) Keep trying, though. This time you did better than your first one-liner in this thread. You more than doubled it to

Re: Any stats about the frequency of backgammon positions? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 19 Days 16 Hours ago by: MK

This is your fifth or sixth asinine one-liner just in this thread diluting/degrading the discussion along with several others from your ilks... :( Why can't you pathetic little sick cretins stay out of it if you have nothing meaningful

Re: Wanted: mathematician for hire on contract by public bid (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 20 Days ago by: Grunty

Put to rethink of it, someone with rather a mathground in backgammon would fit best, for obvious reasons. In lack of that, I'd look for a backmatician with a gambleground in mathgammon.

Hit?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 20 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=---aB-EbB---aD----abcbbAaA:1:1:1:52:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O | | O O O O X O | | X | | O O O O

Rollout: Run? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 20 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=--ABcBDBB---a------bbbcbB-:1:1:1:65:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | | | O O O O O X | | | | O O O O

Re: Any stats about the frequency of backgammon positions? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 20 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

I don't hawk fast cars much any more because I'm so busy developing Eraser.

Re: Wanted: mathematician for hire on contract by public bid (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 20 Days 6 Hours ago by: MK

Re: When ahead in the race... (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 20 Days 15 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

Not abandoning the golden point can't even be considered. Stick

Re: When ahead in the race... (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 20 Days 20 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Abandoning the golden point can't even be considered. We shuffle our inner board, but it isn't clear how. 6/2 4/2 is the only play to maintain the five-point board, but it won't look so pretty after our next shake. I like 6/2 5/3, only

Re: Any stats about the frequency of backgammon positions? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 20 Days 21 Hours ago by: Nasti Chestikov

Or Timothy Chow coming out as Alex Choi and admitting that he hawks fast cars around YouTube. So transparent.

When ahead in the race...

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 21 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-CB-CBC-aa--b----cbcBba---:1:1:1:42:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O O | | O X O O | | O O | | O X O

Rollout: No QF of course (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 21 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-CCCBB----------b--cccBca-:1:1:1:54:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O | | O O O X O O | | O | | O O O X

Re: Just because I got this position wrong doesn't mean it's (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 21 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

I'd say this is a pass. X's 6-5-4 structure is very strong because it has both blitzing and priming potential. Other features of note are that X is 20+ pips up in the race and has a high anchor, making counterplay difficult. As compens

Re: A standard position but I still got it wrong (Shock, horror, hold (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 21 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

It turns out that the website was reorganized. Here's the link, for those who have a GV subscription. https://www.gammonvillage.com/backgammon/magazine/article_display.cfm?resourceidb59 I don't think that there has been any fresh conte

Re: A standard position but I still got it wrong (Shock, horror, hold (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 21 Days 7 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I think it's a weakness in the article that TG isn't mentioned at all. Here is the rollout. Although the position is TG, I wouldn't say the rollout is TG -- in fact, it may not be G enough. I didn't do anything with the settings. Paul

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 21 Days 15 Hours ago by: Grunty

That one made it to RGB's Hall of Fame ;-D

Re: Just because I got this position wrong doesn't mean it's difficult (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 21 Days 17 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

Experience. Stick

Re: Rollout: Doublets are supposed to be lucky (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 21 Days 17 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

4(2) 3(2) doesn't make the 5 point board and leaves a slightly more inflexible position that maybe never makes the 5 point board. And XG leaves the blot because it's hardly any shots. On a lot (most) twos the opponent shouldn't hit. St

Re: Wanted: mathematician for hire on contract by public bid (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 21 Days 21 Hours ago by: Grunty

Or even a gamblematician with a background in mathgammon.

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice and Men, etc. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 22 Days 3 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

This I have read. This one not, thanks for the pointer. Quite interesting. (-:

Wanted: mathematician for hire on contract by public bid

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 22 Days 8 Hours ago by: MK

While reading the other thread, at one point, I thought Axel sounded like he was arguing for my case. What the heck? I wondered if he was pulling a prank on his colleagues and was trolling them...? :) Nah. Couldn't be. But that reminded m

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 22 Days 10 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Some standard links for the history of the doubling cube are: http://www.chicagopoint.com/bgdoubling.html https://bkgm.com/articles/Morawski/30sUnderstandingOfDoubling.html Neither web page mentions beavers specifically. But asking for

Re: Combinatorial explosion of branching factors in gamblegammon and backgammon. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 22 Days 19 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

[Cube shortening games?] O.K., you got me. But on average a DMP game has quite some more moves than the average of all games in a match, see https://www.bkgm.com/rgb/rgb.cgi?view+712 Anyway, the skill of a session of coin tosses do

Re: A claim for damages (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 22 Days 22 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

The only way anyone can understand that this is a take is if they can somehow realise that the winning probability for the roller is < 78%. Since it's quite a lot less --- approx 75%, I would expect Stick and his friends to correctly tak

Re: A claim for damages (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 22 Days 22 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

[...] Just to explore what you might get with the (abandonned, because much worse than the real Isight method) EPC approximation from my article (page 20): EPC(X) = 20 + 5 + 2*1 + 1*1 + 1*3 - 1 = 30 (exact 30.86) EPC(O) = 21 + 5 +

Re: Combinatorial explosion of branching factors in gamblegammon and backgammon. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 22 Days 23 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

....

A claim for damages

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I wrongly dropped the below, using Isight, but the drop appears wrong. However, if I was operating pre-Axelishly, using my own knowledge and experience, I would have dropped anyway. So maybe my claim for compensation should be denied. Bef

Just because I got this position wrong doesn't mean it's difficult

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Often, when I make postings claiming that it's difficult to get the action right, a large part of the reason is that it is ultra-marginal. Hey, I bet you can't tell the difference between a 0.9999999 take and a 1.000000001 pass. Well, no s

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice and Men, etc. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 1 Hour ago by: Axel Reichert

Is there more known about the history? Best regards Axel

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice and Men, etc. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 1 Hour ago by: Axel Reichert

[...] I know all this. I was hypothesizing about a position that has similar properties to the first, but still is a Kauder paradox. But after the first "Double, Beaver" the Kauder paradox becomes impossible, if I understand correctly

Re: Combinatorial explosion of branching factors in gamblegammon and backgammon. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 1 Hour ago by: Axel Reichert

Neither. Sometimes yes (mutant cube strategy), sometimes no (skillfully shortening and thus winning a game otherwise decided by luck). Hold your breath, I anticipate your response and will expand on this further below. Yes, since it ca

Re: Rollout: Double hit? 2 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

Good point. Here's a rollout with O owning the cube. XGID=--a-CCC-B--acB--a--bcbbA-A:1:-1:1:22:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O | |

Run?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=--ABcBDBB---a------bbbcbB-:1:1:1:65:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | | | O O O O O X | | | | O O O O

Rollout: Doublets are supposed to be lucky (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-BAB-bCBB-bBa--a-bbcb-A---:1:1:1:44:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O O O | | O O X | | O O | | O O

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 2 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Regarding the playing of the position, I'll remark that I think Tablebases, together with books that explain them such as Nunn's, make a great equaliser. For example, my strength is probably about 1700 USCF (or maybe even worse). However,

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

This is getting even further off topic, but I can't resist mentioning an incident recounted in Hesse's book "The Joys of Chess," in which both players blundered, but you wouldn't know this from just the game score, which does not record d

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

[...] If one is trying to argue that backgammon ought to be a game of skill rather than a gambling game, then one really doesn't need to work that hard to argue against beavers. Beavers were pretty clearly invented by gamblers. They're

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 2 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Agreed. The distraction/annoyance was (probably) not intentional, but it was still wrong. There is on youtube a much clearer instance of bad behaviour by Praggnanandhaa -- a blatant attempt at a touchmove violation. But he's much more m

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Ah, I see it now! I do see an irregularity here, but it's not the one you mentioned. Praggnanandhaa offers a draw while his opponent is making a move. The standard time to make a draw offer is after a player makes a move and just before

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 4 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

The article you link to is indeed interesting but very well-known. It shows (or claims to show) the concept of a position without a well-defined equity. This is very different to the other (more common but still rare) situation where doub

Re: A standard position but I still got it wrong (Shock, horror, hold (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 4 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Thanks for this. I'm reading the article too. I disagree with this: "With a checker on the 16 and a checker on the 4, we have a definite take. What happened? It isn't obvious." But it's very obvious (to me). Firstly, the action didn't

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice and Men, etc. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 4 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

Yes. A double allows only the player on roll (who is "on the brink of the unknown") to raise the stakes, while a beaver allows both players to "comment" on the same position (in case of further critters, multiple times). This is a signi

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 5 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 8:53:16 AM UTC+1, Axel Reichert wrote:

Re: Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice and Men, etc. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 6 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

If you are referring to our "mutant" discussion: You just found a way that ends up as a Petersburg paradox and thus makes quantification more difficult in a real live session, but still possible in an analytical way. This cube strategy i

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 7 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

Good point. Indeed. I once prepared a quiz on racing doubles for my club members (20 positions). At that time, we had one guy who never, ever, calculated/counted anything. He did quite well. My "algo X" did better than all players, but

Re: Rollout: Double hit? 2 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 12 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

It's not solely because "money", it's bc cube position. Stick

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 14 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

It's extremely clear at about 14mins 51 seconds into the clip. Praggnanandhaa moves his hand and says "Draw?" I'm not sure how you managed to miss it. The draw offer is approx 1 second after the time corresponding to the above link.

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 14 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

I'm confused. I watched the clip but I didn't see a draw offer.

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 15 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

As far as I can tell, the debate between Axel and Stick goes like this: Axel: If you stick to a racing algo and never vary it, that algo should be Isight. Stick: The best approach, for experts, is to use the Keith count usually, but to va

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 16 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 10:04:15 PM UTC+1, Tim Chow wrote:

Re: A standard position but I still got it wrong (Shock, horror, hold (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 16 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

I just went to the GammonVillage website to re-read MCG's article. However, I couldn't find it. I don't know if the website has just been reorganized, or if the online magazine has been discontinued. Luckily, I saved a copy of MCG's arti

No QF of course

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 17 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-CCCBB----------b--cccBca-:1:1:1:54:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O | | O O O X O O | | O | | O O O X

Rollout: Double hit? 2 (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 17 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=--a-CCC-B--acB--a--bcbbA-A:1:1:1:22:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O | | O O O O X | | X | | O O O O

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 17 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

B isn't breaking any rule that I'm aware of. At worst, A might complain that B's action is unsportsmanlike, but I'd agree with you that it seems pretty harmless, especially if B does in fact double. Now there could be a scenario where A

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 17 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Fair enough; I agree. Some such players might claim that they use (say) the Keith Count as their base. But such claims might not be literally true even if they are approximately true, and that would vitiate any kind of formal analysis.

Re: A standard position but I still got it wrong (Shock, horror, hold (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 17 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Not sure exactly, but certainly 55, and probably if X rolls a 9 or an 8. What if X rolls a 6 or a 7? I don't know. These types of positions are typically very sensitive to moving the outfield checker by just a couple of pips, so it's h

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 18 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Ok. If I can vary slightly from the original topic of the thread. I'm actually pretty much a rule-follower myself, but take this related situation -- the one I keep going on about. It's an even race when someone gets an obviously winning

Re: Unusual positions tend to be difficult (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 18 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

I think this is a take. X's priority will be to cover his blot if he can, so for example if he rolls a 7, I think he will cover rather than hit. Nine rolls fail to cover, and even some of the covering rolls give O some return shots. If

Re: A standard position but I still got it wrong (Shock, horror, hold (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 18 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Can you be a bit more specific about which rolls you see as market gainers? Paul

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 18 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

No, I think that, once you accept that strong players are using intuitive adjustments of known algos, hypotheses about which algos form the base are untestable in principle. For example, suppose Isight recommends D/P in a position where K

Re: A standard position but I still got it wrong (Shock, horror, hold (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 18 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

There are a lot of positions that look similar to this one, but small changes can make a big difference to the evaluation, so I would hesitate to call this position "standard." It looks like D/P to me. If X rolls an immediate 6 then cle

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 18 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

With a player who is sufficiently active, and whose matches are recorded, one could accumulate some evidence. But I gather that Stick doesn't play a lot of tournament backgammon nowadays.

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 23 Days 18 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

It doesn't make happy the player whose concentration has been disturbed and who seeks recourse from the TD, only to find that the rules he has been scrupulously trying to follow, sometimes to his own disadvantage, don't apply to his oppon

Of Copernican Revolution, Fosbury Flop, Intuition, Knack, Mice and

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 24 Days 5 Hours ago by: MK

I'm glad I don't filter out much other than stupid, useless, boring position discussions with cutely silly thread titles to attract attention because in some unlikely threads, I find little gems that makes reading RGB interesting and writi

A standard position but I still got it wrong (Shock, horror, hold the

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 24 Days 16 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Unusual positions tend to be difficult

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 24 Days 17 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I expect that people (perhaps even Stick) will find this problem very difficult. That doesn't mean no one will get it right. Maybe lots of people will get it right. But I would be really impressed and surprised if someone got this right a

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 25 Days 1 Hour ago by: peps...@gmail.com

More succinctly, take the informal approach: "Use [algo X] as an initial approx and adjust using experience and intuition." Even if algo X is the best when used in an automated botlike fashion (and there's strong evidence that X = Isight)

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 25 Days 1 Hour ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I think you and Stick are both right. If we stick to an algo with clear params, your method wins. Stick is pointing out that, as one of the very greatest players in the world, he can outperform your algo. How does he do this? He has heu

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 25 Days 7 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

The economic framing is very strange (to me) because of its indirectness. Yes, the TD might be a professional backgammon director (they do exist) and might benefit financially from a good relationship with a host. But the direct impact of

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 25 Days 13 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

The TD often wants to host the next tournament in the same place. Current behavior affects future economic transactions. I have no specific suggestion. Your suggestion here may be reasonable, although it's hard to say without testing i

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 25 Days 17 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

[...] [...] After all my work, I am quite confident that *within my parameterized framework* the Isight method is the optimum one (without getting too technical here). This of course leaves plenty of room for even better method *outs

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 25 Days 20 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Axel, I'm sure Stick knows this. I think his claim is that he can improve on Isight by using the Keith count as his main algo but then using some type of adjustment in some cases. But he's totally vague on what the adjustments are and

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 25 Days 20 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

Thanks. I take this to mean said number of pips *before* increasing by 1/7. Also you meant probably (corresponding to Tom's original wording): A player should double if his count exceeds the opponent's count by no more than 5 (for

Re: Doublets are supposed to be lucky (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 25 Days 21 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

11/7(2) 8/4(2). We are big underdogs. Our main winning parlay is to quickly roll a 6 and hope that either the 6 lets us hit or that we can avoid being hit while we cash in our racing lead. Keeping the 11 point rather than breaking it s

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I don't think the reference to an "economic incentive" is your major point. But I think that reference might indicate that you don't understand what I tried to say. [Note the "tried to". It's very possible that you understood exactly wha

Doublets are supposed to be lucky

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-BAB-bCBB-bBa--a-bbcb-A---:1:1:1:44:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | O O O | | O O X | | O O | | O O

Rollout: Double hit? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-AB-aBBBB----B-a-bcbdB-b--:0:0:1:63:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O O O | | O O X O | | X O O | | O O X

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

I see a typo: where you wrote "he doesn't have or runs out" you meant to write, "I don't have or run out."

Re: Rollout: Anchor or not? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYOES3zZDu0&tY0s

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

Even more simply, if I pause for a significant amount of time, then it strongly suggests that I'm thinking of doubling, since there aren't many other reasons for pausing for a long time (maybe to convince myself that the opponent's checke

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

I'm not totally sure what I think about whether the take stands. In a sense, the take is a premature action. True, it was prompted by B's premature double, but A isn't obliged to either take or pass immediately. He can say, "I'm not don

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

I would say that if the tournament directors find this line of reasoning persuasive, then they should write it into the rules, rather than write the rules to say the opposite and then turn a blind eye. It's generally not a good idea to e

Re: Combinatorial explosion of branching factors in gamblegammon and backgammon. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 3 Hours ago by: MK

Very happy to see you back Axel. :) Are you reincarnated as a frog or a turtle..? ;) Let me make a few side remarks before getting back into the subject. I like: 1) that you use Gnubg rather than XG in your posts, 2) that you write l

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 5 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

Keith Count ~80 to ~100 pips can double when leading by 5 Keith Count ~100 pips to 120pips can double when leading by 6 Keith Count 120 pips + can double when leading by 7 The most common problem and its fix can't be applied. It's recog

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 7 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I don't see it that way. I'm somewhat negatively surprised at myself, that I'm not coming up with much (if anything) of value that I didn't already say in Nov 2020. But I didn't know that the series would end up so weak when I started it

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 13 Hours ago by: MK

I quoted this to refer to it in my reply to Paul below. ------------------------------------------------------- On April 18, 2022 at 5:37:53 AM UTC-6, peps...@gmail.com wrote: Okay, sorry. :( I misjudged where you were going with i

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 17 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

If you care to let me know the common problems and its fixes, it is likely a simple task to run my slightly augmented script over both databases (the one I used for calibrating and the one I later used for verifying). Best regards Axel

Suspected crime by Isight -- the defence and prosecution

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 17 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Although XG sees a fairly solid redouble (both by rollout and analysis), I make the Isight counts 57 and 63 so a (wrong) hold here (but a correct initial double). OTB, I wouldn't consider doubling here. Case for the prosection: A clear r

Re: Rollout: Anchor or not? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 18 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

How did you not consider slotting? I mean that seriously, not sarcastically. After looking for two seconds I saw the two was *forced so I played bar/23. After that there are not a lot of reasonable fives to consider. Have to look at t

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 18 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

Especially if you use the Keith Count on the regular and apply known fixes to some of its common problems. Stick

Re: Not suitable for eating as a fruit but it's ok to use for banana bread (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 18 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

A rollout brings the plays closer with the banana split being wrong by ~.030. Stick

Re: A Trumpian checker play (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 18 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

I see people do this a lot. Try too hard to get a second checker when getting a second checker isn't a realistic thing to do. How are you going to accomplish that here for example? The opponent has to throw a non covering ace [31 51],

Re: Rollout: Should have been easy but I flubbed it anyway (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 18 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

I have a collection of these (near) last roll should be obvious but people can still mess them up save the gammon type problems. Stick

Re: Sweet but psychic (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 18 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

I know how well I played. There is margin for error of course as maybe on some of those decisions I was unsure of I got lucky and guessed correctly or maybe on some of those decisions I was unsure of I guessed and even though it was wron

Re: Rollout: A good rule that I learned from Stick (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 18 Hours ago by: Stick Rice

To be specific, the rule is meant for 3a 7a or greater. If you apply it to 3a 6a it will get clunky. It can be in the back of your mind at 3a 6a but it isn't nearly as on point as 3a 7a or greater. It should not be used for 3a 5a or 3a

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 19 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

No, I don't agree with you on what others have said. I think Tim and I are both members of the 2c society. The double stands, the take stands, the checker play is in process and can be changed. So I don't think A can "decide with a fre

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 21 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

Very good point! O. K., this is convincing for me. So it seems the consensus here boils down to maximum punishment for the premature doubler "B": "A" may move as he wished, and then still decide with a fresh mind on his take. I am fine

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 21 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

There's an additional point to be made in favour of the 2c society. Even though B has transgressed, we might not want to discourage B's behaviour too much in the case of clockless games. It's a common scenario where A knows that whatever

Re: Campaign to Protect the Reputation of Racing Algorithm Inventors (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 21 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

The 80 in the formula p = 80 - l/3 + 2 * Delta l must be matched with the thresholds 68, 70, and 76 (for money). Using p = 70 - l/3 + 2 * Delta l together with thresholds 58, 60, and 66 obviously gives exactly the same cube decis

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 22 Hours ago by: Bradley K. Sherman

If a player says to the other, "I'm thinking of cubing you," that would not consitute an obligation to double, nor would it be a violation of the rules. IMO. --bks

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 22 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I'm not in favour of the reaching rule either. But the rule's absence can also be exploited. A player can reach for the cube while scrutinizing the opponent's reaction to dishonestly obtain the answer to the question "How would my opponen

Re: Campaign to Protect the Reputation of Racing Algorithm Inventors (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 23 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I think it's exceptional (in a good sense) in every regard. The thing is that the number of people who know the relevant areas of maths and modelling and software development and backgammon is very small. So when such a person has time to

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 26 Days 23 Hours ago by: Bradley K. Sherman

I was TD for over 100 small tournaments in the 70's and I cannot recall ever having to adjudicate whether a cube had been offered or not. We did not have a "reaching for the cube constitutes a double" rule, but if we had, there were cert

Double hit? 2

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=--a-CCC-B--acB--a--bcbbA-A:1:1:1:22:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O | | O O O O X | | X | | O O O O

Rollout: Containment cube (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-a-BBBB-B-ab-B---B-Ad-cbb-:1:1:1:00:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X X | | X O O O O | | X X | | O O

Re: Campaign to Protect the Reputation of Racing Algorithm Inventors (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

Most older algorithms don't compute winning chances. They just tell you to count pips, make some adjustments, and then make a corresponding cube decision, assuming a money game. Kleinman was one of the few analysts who actually tried to

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

It's chaotic, but the chaos is B's fault. The ruling should not reward B's transgression.

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

I think Simon has changed his mind after checking the rules. Axel's scenario is that the clarity of B's (premature) double is not in question; she didn't just "reach for the cube." If it is undisputed that B intended to, and successfully

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 1 Hour ago by: Timothy Chow

The rule talks about "finishing his turn." It seems clear to me that "turn" refers to his *current* turn, not his *next* turn, which has not come yet. If it referred to his *next* turn, it would be saying that the opponent is entitled t

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 3 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

It's a much better question than I realised at first. In technical matters, it often happens that questions are much more interesting than they first seem. When I was 15 or 16 years old (before there was any hint of a proof of Fermat's la

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 4 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

[...] Well, the take is another premature action. Normally, premature actions stand, but here the non-finished previous action (the move) occurs on the same side as the premature action. Hence, it would be a bonus for the take if he we

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 5 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Thanks for your thoughts. When I first started playing tournament backgammon in the US (around 1992 or so), I was told that the cube offer can't be retracted if the player has touched the cube. Reaching for it was not considered enough

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 5 Hours ago by: Simon Woodhead

I am strongly against the touch cube rule where even reaching for it constitutes a double. I believe the cube should be at least in the hands of the cuber, and preferably placed on the playing surface as it should be. If someone claims

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 6 Hours ago by: Simon Woodhead

Yes, I misread the original post, thinking it was a new game.

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 7 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Ok, now I understand your question better. Before, it seemed obvious that 1) The double stands and 2) The play can be changed. I disagree that it is reasonable to assume that the take finishes the move. There are two clear signatures for

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 7 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Robertie has such a position in Advanced Backgammon. He has a position where the practical play is different from the theoretical play. And the strength of the practical play is that it almost always induces a bad double. Perhaps that's

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 7 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Just a small technical correction to a misreading. Not "with the cube centered" because no one said that the cube was previously centered. You mean that the cube should be moved to its previous position. Paul

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 7 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Although I came to a different decision, I actually like this way of thinking. And I think Simon has TD experience so he would know better than me. Paul

Re: Campaign to Protect the Reputation of Racing Algorithm Inventors (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 7 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Which algos don't work like that? I think Isight works like that. Therefore, when Isight makes errors, we have to distinguish between two types of errors. 1) Are the thresholds correct? (For example 68/70/76 in money games). 2) Does the I

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 7 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

Thanks! In our chouette we play according to (an abbreviated version of the) European Backgammon Federation Rules: http://eubgf.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Tournament-Rules-EUBGF-Feb16.pdf This has: PREMATURE ACTION - If a play

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 11 Hours ago by: Simon Woodhead

My mistake, I misread his original message.

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 11 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Okay, this is clearer than the U.S. rules, but it comes to the same thing in the end, assuming my interpretation of the U.S. rules is right. Axel didn't say anything about a first roll cube. Is there some context that I'm unaware of?

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 11 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

Okay, I found a position in "Backgammon Funfair" that fits the bill, except that it only seems to work for money with the cube centered. XGID=-ACB-A----------------aac-:0:0:1:22:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unli

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 12 Hours ago by: Simon Woodhead

The US rules are lacking :-) The WBGF rules cover this issue clearly and sensibly. https://wbgf.info/tournaments/rules 4.4(v): "PREMATURE ACTION – If a player doubles before the end of the opponent’s turn, the double stands if it

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 12 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

My understanding is that "legal moves" generally refers to checker play and not to doubling. For example, let's look at the USBGF rules. https://usbgf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/rules.pdf These state, "If a player touches the cube

Re: Campaign to Protect the Reputation of Racing Algorithm Inventors (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 14 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

This isn't how all algorithms work. Some simply ignore match play and focus only on delivering a verdict on the cube action. In principle, such an algorithm could (for example) correctly judge that Position A is a double and Position B

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 14 Hours ago by: Simon Woodhead

Most rules require legal moves these days. B has doubled prematurely and therefore it's an illegal "move". The game is reset to before A moved the checkers, with the cube centered.

Campaign to Protect the Reputation of Racing Algorithm Inventors

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 16 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

1) Convert game-winning-probability into cube action. 2) Find the game-winning probability. For 1), the exact answer is that this of course varies. There's an optional take position where the taker's gwc is only 18.75% but this is unusual

Re: Premature double, take (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 17 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

The first thing to do is to look at the rules for the event concerned or for the backgammon organisation concerned. Suppose then, that this particular matter has not been addressed and that I must refer to my (considerable) common sense.

Premature double, take

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 18 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

A has moved his checkers to a legal position for his roll, but is still thinking about his move and the dice are still on the board. B is getting impatient and doubles, A takes, and then insists to decide for a different move before he pick

Re: Combinatorial explosion of branching factors in gamblegammon and backgammon. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 18 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

Yes. 52 split, 55 double hit, dance, double, pass. I do not figure that many explosions. Most of these blitzes will just end in gammons, with the occasional lucky late hit by the dancer. Not terribly exciting checker play. Yes. While

Re: Axelising in a real game without cheating by reading the paper (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 19 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I would like to adopt it in my OTB repertoire when possible. I will always do this against XG. In live play, I'm not sure whether I can do this at the required speed. I excel in pure mental arithmetic in the sense of square root of this,

Re: Axelising in a real game without cheating by reading the paper (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 19 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

I meant this statement rather long-term: I took about 1.5 years from your first feedback on my article to (perhaps) adopting it in your "over the board" repertoire. No offense, I am happy about every "customer". Best regards Axel

Re: Axelising in a real game without cheating by reading the paper (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 21 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:54:31 PM UTC+1, Axel Reichert wrote:

Re: Axelising in a real game without cheating by reading the paper (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 23 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

Finally, thanks. You needed quite a bit of hand-holding ... By the way, one advantage of GNU Backgammon while getting familiar with the Isight method is that it is implemented. So you can do the math yourself and then compare with the r

Re: A foolproof guide to Isight? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 27 Days 23 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

This is by design. Explanation starting on page 24. Essentially Bower's interpolation generalized. Roughly. (-:

Very lucky game

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

In the position below, I was playing X against XG as O. I managed to win a gammon (and the match). XGID=-DBBBB-----------bbccbbCa-:1:1:1:51:4:3:0:7:10 X:Me O:eXtremeGammon Score is X:4 O:3 7 pt.(s) match. +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-2

Axelising in a real game without cheating by reading the paper

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 1 Hour ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I have just played my first Axelisation game against XG. As in the title, I didn't cheat by consulting the paper during the game. Furthermore, my settings don't give the pipcounts. So, quite similar to OTB. I know it's just one game but I'

Double hit?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-AB-aBBBB----B-a-bcbdB-b--:0:0:1:63:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O O O | | O O X O | | X O O | | O O X

Rollout: Anchor or not? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 2 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-a--B-BBBAB-bB--dc-c-b-A-A:0:0:1:52:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X O O | | O O X | | X O O | | O O

Re: A foolproof guide to Isight? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 2 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Sorry, the probability is 80 - 6/3 + 2 * 0 = 78 instead of 79. Paul

Re: A foolproof guide to Isight? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 3 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I knew I'd get these wrong at first. I forgot my extra checker. This makes the method better but I'm not sure whether it will work. Both our counts are in fact 6. 6 + 6/6 - 6 = 1. Still D/P. How about the probability? 80 - 6/3 + 1 =

Re: A foolproof guide to Isight? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 3 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Thanks. I can't resist testing it, now that I have more info. I'm going to try and be a bit sneaky and trip Isight up a little bit. Let's make the position a bit atypical by giving the opponent just a single checker on her 6 point. This

Re: A foolproof guide to Isight? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 3 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

1 and 2 give EXACTLY the same cube action in a money session. I prefer the more general Delta l version, because it will give you a winning percentage, which is required for match play. Then you "just" need to do some match equity calcul

A foolproof guide to Isight?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 4 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I'm pleased that I finally got round to reading Axel's paper. Despite my attempts to apply that method being wrong, I'm pretty confident I can apply it in the future. But I have the advantage of being incredibly good at mental arithmetic,

Re: A few tests of Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 5 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Thanks for the correction on n roll positions. I remember Robertie stating the rule for 5 rolls / 4 rolls / 3 rolls. I assumed (wrongly) that he said "5" rather than "more than 4" because the 6, 7, 8 situations were ND/T. I don't know wh

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 7 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

I did several talks on this over the years. Normally, the software Isight is used for parameter optimization of, say, automotive or aerospace parts, classical engineering problems. But most engineers like to play with their favourite toy

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 7 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

Because the Keith count was the best so far (and by far, see table 9). Also, because I built heavily on Tom's outstanding work and really felt obliged to mention his outstanding work. Axel

Re: A few tests of Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 8 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

No, I just looked it up in Danny Kleinman's "Vision laughs at counting" ("The complete ace-point bear-off". Even 8 rolls (15 checkers each on point 1) is D/T. A rollout confirms these results. My list above is correct. I understand now

3a7a recube action

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 13 Hours ago by: Timothy Chow

I recently messed up a 3a7a recube action and thought that r.g.b. readers might find the pair of positions below interesting. XGID=--B-----------------a--a--:1:1:1:00:4:0:0:7:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:4 O:0 7 pt.(s) match.

Re: A few tests of Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 15 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I don't think so. 6 or 7 rolls each is ND/T, I think. I meant the situation where only one player has an acepoint stack. There you can apply two different valid conventions. You can make the acepoint stack even or you can make it odd. T

Re: A few tests of Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 28 Days 23 Hours ago by: Axel Reichert

You better had. Page 28: "Add 2 pips for each checker more than 2 on point 1." You just added 2 pips in total, not per "additional" checker. I my opinion, there is no sensible way to apply the Isight method here. Acepoint stacks are ab

Containment cube

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-a-BBBB-B-ab-B---B-Ad-cbb-:1:1:1:00:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X X | | X O O O O | | X X | | O O

Rollout: Six-primed (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

XGID=-AB-aBBBB----BA---bbcbbbaA:1:1:1:11:0:0:0:0:10 X:Player 1 O:Player 2 Score is X:0 O:0. Unlimited Game +13-14-15-16-17-18------19-20-21-22-23-24-+ | X X O | | O O O O O O | | X O | | O O O O

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

Ah, so that's why you use sock puppets!

Re: Any stats about the frequency of backgammon positions? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days ago by: Timothy Chow

It's fun because the comment elicits more entertaining nonsense from you.

A few tests of Isight

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I have 6 checkers on my acepoint and you have 5 on your acepoint. Will you correctly pass and will I correctly double? Let's try with and without adjustment. I'll try not to refer to the paper and just use my memory. 6 (my raw pip count) +

What do we do when Axel's Isight method is ambiguous?

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 2 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I have just read (not particularly thoroughly, admittedly) Axel's Isight paper. It's simply than I thought, and I look forward to applying it in practice. However, the method is (occasionally) not well-defined in my opinion. But the same

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 2 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I think I've said this before, but the claim that the Isight method works better, in the sense of error minimization, than other comparable methods, is utterly without justification. Note that an unjustified claim is not necessarily a fa

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 3 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

It's not ideal, but if I don't do it this way, my comments simply won't get done, bearing in mind all my other commitments after this short holiday. I'm sure Axel is interested, and probably Tim, too. Realistically, the choice is probably

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 3 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Despite the focus on ease of application, the section on adjusted pip count says nothing about mnemonics or other tools to aid the reader's memory for applying the rules. My mnemonic is "Strictly low 2 2 3 2 1 1 relative all 1 high cross

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 3 Hours ago by: MK

Jesus Christ, man! I felt so bad about following up to my own post once. Don't you feel any shame in being the only one to follow up to your own post four times in a row?! Stop fucking yourself in public! MK

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 3 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I don't know Axel personally (beyond reading some of his posts here) and know nothing about his career. But I believe that, if he wants to (or does) work in areas related to non-linear parameter optimization or similar areas of maths and

Re: Any stats about the frequency of backgammon positions? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 3 Hours ago by: MK

Shit, I'm on my second glass of wine at 4:00am and following up to my own post, to myself. This is all Grunty's fault. Please folks, stop reading. After hearing the above song, I couldn't keep myself from also listening to "Epitaph".

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 4 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

Huge blunder(s) in the discussion of the pips-even race with 5 checkers on the ace against one checker on the 5. with the stacked player to roll. After the roll, it is double/pass. But the pass is not optional, as incorrectly stated Peo

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 4 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

As a somewhat experienced player (PR between 5 and 6, I would guess), I am deciding not to read the three references on races. But I'm sure much in those articles would be new to me. Another point is that references have references whic

Re: Reading Axel's paper on Isight (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 4 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I can calculate square-roots to two decimal places or so pretty effortlessly, so the fact that Isight avoids square-root computation is not a strong selling point for me. Also, not sure why the Keith count gets mentioned so much in the ab

Reading Axel's paper on Isight

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 4 Hours ago by: peps...@gmail.com

I am on holiday from now (actually before now but I can't change the past) to Wednesday, with very few time commitments. So I'm deciding to read Axel's stuff on Isight. Part of the point of this posting is to motivate myself to do it. My

Re: "Beware of the Beaver": The analytical solution (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 5 Hours ago by: MK

Just for the record that I'm not ignoring this post in this thread. I have some things to say about it all but I'm standing aside for the moment in order to not be rude by getting ahead of the math PHD's here. My prediction is that we

Re: Combinatorial explosion of branching factors in gamblegammon and backgammon. (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 5 Hours ago by: MK

Yes, that's why I had said: "Crawford itself has no effect here since it only shortens matches not games". I further don't see how what you said relates to what you quoted from me? BTW: even as I kept calling "cube skill" bullshit, pe

Re: Any stats about the frequency of backgammon positions? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 5 Hours ago by: MK

Here is my version: 1- Murat comes up with an interesting idea regarding BG. 2- After mulling over it for a while, he introduces to RGB. 3- Some people find it "stimulating" and join the discussion. 4- They fail to add much to it but th

Re: Any stats about the frequency of backgammon positions? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 6 Hours ago by: MK

I was not "left" alone by them. I chased them off myself. This neither new nor the first time. During my 26 years in RGB, I've been mostly talking to the winds... Being a zeppeling among hot air balloons wasn't by my choices. Manner

Re: Any stats about the frequency of backgammon positions? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 7 Hours ago by: MK

What is fun about that..?? BTW, not all stingers are bad. Think of the stinging nettle with its numerous beneficial and medicinal uses. When you run out of toilet paper during a discussion, just don't try to wipe yourself with it. How

Re: Any stats about the frequency of backgammon positions? (thread)

rec.games.backgammon

Posted: 29 Days 7 Hours ago by: MK

I'll try if you tell me what color you want me to call you..? MK

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