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devel / alt.lang.asm / Re: MASM/WASM .model

SubjectAuthor
* MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
`* Re: MASM/WASM .modelAlexei A. Frounze
 `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
  `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelAlexei A. Frounze
   `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
    `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelAlexei A. Frounze
     `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
      `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelAlexei A. Frounze
       `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
        `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelsean
         `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
          `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelsean
           +* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
           |+* Re: MASM/WASM .modelAlexei A. Frounze
           ||`* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
           || +* Re: MASM/WASM .modelwolfgang kern
           || |`* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
           || | `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelsean
           || |  `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
           || |   +- Re: MASM/WASM .modelAlexei A. Frounze
           || |   `- Re: MASM/WASM .modelsean
           || `- Re: MASM/WASM .modelsean
           |`* Re: MASM/WASM .modelFrank Kotler
           | +- Re: MASM/WASM .modelFrank Kotler
           | `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
           |  +* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
           |  |`- Re: MASM/WASM .modelFrank Kotler
           |  `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelFrank Kotler
           |   `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
           |    `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelFrank Kotler
           |     `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
           |      +* Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
           |      |`- Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
           |      `* Re: MASM/WASM .modelsean
           |       `- Re: MASM/WASM .modelRobert Pengelly
           `- Re: MASM/WASM .modelFrank Kotler

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Re: MASM/WASM .model

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Subject: Re: MASM/WASM .model
From: robertap...@gmail.com (Robert Pengelly)
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 by: Robert Pengelly - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 02:33 UTC

On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:10:53 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> On 07/19/2022 01:08 AM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> ...
> > I used to use NASM but it has limitations. One example would be that it only allows one file to be assembled at a time and another example would be far jumps, using nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o I get "error: COFF format does not support non-32-bit relocations"
> COFF is pretty obsolete, no? Why not "-f win32"?
>
> Best,
> Frank
I know the boot sector is too small and shouldn't switch to protected mode that's why I said loader not sector, also this isn't about C compilers its about assemblers and how they function. The nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o was just an example but win32 produes the exact same message as -f coff.

Re: MASM/WASM .model

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Subject: Re: MASM/WASM .model
From: robertap...@gmail.com (Robert Pengelly)
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 by: Robert Pengelly - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 02:42 UTC

On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:33:41 UTC+1, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:10:53 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> > On 07/19/2022 01:08 AM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> > ...
> > > I used to use NASM but it has limitations. One example would be that it only allows one file to be assembled at a time and another example would be far jumps, using nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o I get "error: COFF format does not support non-32-bit relocations"
> > COFF is pretty obsolete, no? Why not "-f win32"?
> >
> > Best,
> > Frank
> I know the boot sector is too small and shouldn't switch to protected mode that's why I said loader not sector, also this isn't about C compilers its about assemblers and how they function. The nasm -f coff test.asm -o test..o was just an example but win32 produes the exact same message as -f coff.
Sorry, forgot that everything got to be specific on here. I know that jmp seg : off is supported by NASM but the fact you can't have
something like:

section .data:
temp:
dd some_offset
dw some_selector

section .text
jump:
jmp far temp

with file formats other than with omf files is a limitation in my opinion (you may have a different opinion).

Re: MASM/WASM .model

<tb7qr9$1d01$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: fbkot...@myfairpoint.net (Frank Kotler)
Newsgroups: alt.lang.asm
Subject: Re: MASM/WASM .model
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2022 22:53:39 -0400
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 by: Frank Kotler - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 02:53 UTC

On 07/19/2022 10:33 PM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:10:53 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
>> On 07/19/2022 01:08 AM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
>> ...
>>> I used to use NASM but it has limitations. One example would be that it only allows one file to be assembled at a time and another example would be far jumps, using nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o I get "error: COFF format does not support non-32-bit relocations"
>> COFF is pretty obsolete, no? Why not "-f win32"?
>>
>> Best,
>> Frank
> I know the boot sector is too small and shouldn't switch to protected mode that's why I said loader not sector, also this isn't about C compilers its about assemblers and how they function. The nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o was just an example but win32 produes the exact same message as -f coff.
>
Right. I was confused. Nasm's "-f coff" is for djgpp(?).

I may be a little lost as to exactly what we ARE trying to do.

Best,
Frank

Re: MASM/WASM .model

<05a98b14-5517-4558-8457-6efbc9d6aa3an@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: MASM/WASM .model
From: robertap...@gmail.com (Robert Pengelly)
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 by: Robert Pengelly - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 03:40 UTC

On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:55:43 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> On 07/19/2022 10:33 PM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:10:53 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> >> On 07/19/2022 01:08 AM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> >> ...
> >>> I used to use NASM but it has limitations. One example would be that it only allows one file to be assembled at a time and another example would be far jumps, using nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o I get "error: COFF format does not support non-32-bit relocations"
> >> COFF is pretty obsolete, no? Why not "-f win32"?
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Frank
> > I know the boot sector is too small and shouldn't switch to protected mode that's why I said loader not sector, also this isn't about C compilers its about assemblers and how they function. The nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o was just an example but win32 produes the exact same message as -f coff.
> >
> Right. I was confused. Nasm's "-f coff" is for djgpp(?).
>
> I may be a little lost as to exactly what we ARE trying to do.
>
> Best,
> Frank
I was original querying what .model did in MASM to decide on whether it's worth trying to add support for it in a project and people were saying that they use NASM so I said I used to use it and it's turned into a discussion about it.

Re: MASM/WASM .model

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From: fbkot...@myfairpoint.net (Frank Kotler)
Newsgroups: alt.lang.asm
Subject: Re: MASM/WASM .model
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2022 23:44:25 -0400
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 by: Frank Kotler - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 03:44 UTC

On 07/19/2022 10:42 PM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:33:41 UTC+1, Robert Pengelly wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:10:53 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
>>> On 07/19/2022 01:08 AM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> I used to use NASM but it has limitations. One example would be that it only allows one file to be assembled at a time and another example would be far jumps, using nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o I get "error: COFF format does not support non-32-bit relocations"
>>> COFF is pretty obsolete, no? Why not "-f win32"?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Frank
>> I know the boot sector is too small and shouldn't switch to protected mode that's why I said loader not sector, also this isn't about C compilers its about assemblers and how they function. The nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o was just an example but win32 produes the exact same message as -f coff.
> Sorry, forgot that everything got to be specific on here. I know that jmp seg : off is supported by NASM but the fact you can't have
> something like:
>
> section .data:
> temp:
> dd some_offset
> dw some_selector
>
> section .text
> jump:
> jmp far temp
>
> with file formats other than with omf files is a limitation in my opinion (you may have a different opinion).
>
Different opinions are no problem. Different syntax might be a problem.
Been a long time since I've tried anything like this. Been doing Linux
lately ... which is kinda pointless...

I'm thinking:
jmp far [temp]
might be what we want, Maybe (maybe!!!) segment and 32-bit offset might
want to be swapped.

Help me get oriented, if you would. We're no longer talking about
".model", right? I'm thinking we want to assemble into -f bin. Are you
with me on this? If not, what? Are we trying to switch real mode to
protected? (second stage loader?) How lost AM I?

Best,
Frank

Re: MASM/WASM .model

<tb7ull$cbd$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: fbkot...@myfairpoint.net (Frank Kotler)
Newsgroups: alt.lang.asm
Subject: Re: MASM/WASM .model
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2022 23:58:55 -0400
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Frank Kotler - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 03:58 UTC

On 07/19/2022 11:40 PM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:55:43 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
>> On 07/19/2022 10:33 PM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:10:53 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
>>>> On 07/19/2022 01:08 AM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>> I used to use NASM but it has limitations. One example would be that it only allows one file to be assembled at a time and another example would be far jumps, using nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o I get "error: COFF format does not support non-32-bit relocations"
>>>> COFF is pretty obsolete, no? Why not "-f win32"?
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Frank
>>> I know the boot sector is too small and shouldn't switch to protected mode that's why I said loader not sector, also this isn't about C compilers its about assemblers and how they function. The nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o was just an example but win32 produes the exact same message as -f coff.
>>>
>> Right. I was confused. Nasm's "-f coff" is for djgpp(?).
>>
>> I may be a little lost as to exactly what we ARE trying to do.
>>
>> Best,
>> Frank
> I was original querying what .model did in MASM to decide on whether it's worth trying to add support for it in a project and people were saying that they use NASM so I said I used to use it and it's turned into a discussion about it.
>
Okay.
Back when Ronnie Ray-gun was president, there was a hilarious routine in
which he was answering the question before last. We may be getting into
that...

Try to put me in the picture only if you feel like it.

Best,
Frank

Re: MASM/WASM .model

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Subject: Re: MASM/WASM .model
From: robertap...@gmail.com (Robert Pengelly)
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 by: Robert Pengelly - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 04:15 UTC

On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 05:00:57 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> On 07/19/2022 11:40 PM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:55:43 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> >> On 07/19/2022 10:33 PM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:10:53 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> >>>> On 07/19/2022 01:08 AM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> >>>> ...
> >>>>> I used to use NASM but it has limitations. One example would be that it only allows one file to be assembled at a time and another example would be far jumps, using nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o I get "error: COFF format does not support non-32-bit relocations"
> >>>> COFF is pretty obsolete, no? Why not "-f win32"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Frank
> >>> I know the boot sector is too small and shouldn't switch to protected mode that's why I said loader not sector, also this isn't about C compilers its about assemblers and how they function. The nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o was just an example but win32 produes the exact same message as -f coff.
> >>>
> >> Right. I was confused. Nasm's "-f coff" is for djgpp(?).
> >>
> >> I may be a little lost as to exactly what we ARE trying to do.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Frank
> > I was original querying what .model did in MASM to decide on whether it's worth trying to add support for it in a project and people were saying that they use NASM so I said I used to use it and it's turned into a discussion about it.
> >
> Okay.
> Back when Ronnie Ray-gun was president, there was a hilarious routine in
> which he was answering the question before last. We may be getting into
> that...
>
> Try to put me in the picture only if you feel like it.
>
> Best,
> Frank
I know it's getting confusing, it started of me asking what .model does and sort of got an answer to that from sean yesterday "18 Jul 2022, 23:46:16" (although it's more like a little under 30 hours ago) and he asked at the bottom "Why not use nasm?" so I replied "I used to use NASM but it has limitations" and the conversations continued from there.

Re: MASM/WASM .model

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Subject: Re: MASM/WASM .model
From: robertap...@gmail.com (Robert Pengelly)
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 by: Robert Pengelly - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 04:19 UTC

On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 05:15:45 UTC+1, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 05:00:57 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> > On 07/19/2022 11:40 PM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:55:43 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> > >> On 07/19/2022 10:33 PM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> > >>> On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:10:53 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> > >>>> On 07/19/2022 01:08 AM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> > >>>> ...
> > >>>>> I used to use NASM but it has limitations. One example would be that it only allows one file to be assembled at a time and another example would be far jumps, using nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o I get "error: COFF format does not support non-32-bit relocations"
> > >>>> COFF is pretty obsolete, no? Why not "-f win32"?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Best,
> > >>>> Frank
> > >>> I know the boot sector is too small and shouldn't switch to protected mode that's why I said loader not sector, also this isn't about C compilers its about assemblers and how they function. The nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o was just an example but win32 produes the exact same message as -f coff.
> > >>>
> > >> Right. I was confused. Nasm's "-f coff" is for djgpp(?).
> > >>
> > >> I may be a little lost as to exactly what we ARE trying to do.
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >> Frank
> > > I was original querying what .model did in MASM to decide on whether it's worth trying to add support for it in a project and people were saying that they use NASM so I said I used to use it and it's turned into a discussion about it.
> > >
> > Okay.
> > Back when Ronnie Ray-gun was president, there was a hilarious routine in
> > which he was answering the question before last. We may be getting into
> > that...
> >
> > Try to put me in the picture only if you feel like it.
> >
> > Best,
> > Frank
> I know it's getting confusing, it started of me asking what .model does and sort of got an answer to that from sean yesterday "18 Jul 2022, 23:46:16" (although it's more like a little under 30 hours ago) and he asked at the bottom "Why not use nasm?" so I replied "I used to use NASM but it has limitations" and the conversations continued from there.
Sorry looked at the wrong message timestamp sean gave me the answer "18 Jul 2022, 06:10:30" so almost 48 hours ago.

Re: MASM/WASM .model

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Subject: Re: MASM/WASM .model
From: robertap...@gmail.com (Robert Pengelly)
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 by: Robert Pengelly - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 04:33 UTC

On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 05:19:22 UTC+1, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 05:15:45 UTC+1, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 05:00:57 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> > > On 07/19/2022 11:40 PM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:55:43 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> > > >> On 07/19/2022 10:33 PM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> > > >>> On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 03:10:53 UTC+1, Frank Kotler wrote:
> > > >>>> On 07/19/2022 01:08 AM, Robert Pengelly wrote:
> > > >>>> ...
> > > >>>>> I used to use NASM but it has limitations. One example would be that it only allows one file to be assembled at a time and another example would be far jumps, using nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o I get "error: COFF format does not support non-32-bit relocations"
> > > >>>> COFF is pretty obsolete, no? Why not "-f win32"?
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Best,
> > > >>>> Frank
> > > >>> I know the boot sector is too small and shouldn't switch to protected mode that's why I said loader not sector, also this isn't about C compilers its about assemblers and how they function. The nasm -f coff test.asm -o test.o was just an example but win32 produes the exact same message as -f coff.
> > > >>>
> > > >> Right. I was confused. Nasm's "-f coff" is for djgpp(?).
> > > >>
> > > >> I may be a little lost as to exactly what we ARE trying to do.
> > > >>
> > > >> Best,
> > > >> Frank
> > > > I was original querying what .model did in MASM to decide on whether it's worth trying to add support for it in a project and people were saying that they use NASM so I said I used to use it and it's turned into a discussion about it.
> > > >
> > > Okay.
> > > Back when Ronnie Ray-gun was president, there was a hilarious routine in
> > > which he was answering the question before last. We may be getting into
> > > that...
> > >
> > > Try to put me in the picture only if you feel like it.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Frank
> > I know it's getting confusing, it started of me asking what .model does and sort of got an answer to that from sean yesterday "18 Jul 2022, 23:46:16" (although it's more like a little under 30 hours ago) and he asked at the bottom "Why not use nasm?" so I replied "I used to use NASM but it has limitations" and the conversations continued from there.
> Sorry looked at the wrong message timestamp sean gave me the answer "18 Jul 2022, 06:10:30" so almost 48 hours ago.
It would be a bit easier if you look back at the conversation history. I'm getting a little confused at what the time zones are for the different people so the answer was given in the 10th message in this thread and the rest have been about NASM.

Re: MASM/WASM .model

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Subject: Re: MASM/WASM .model
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2022 07:28:12 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: sea...@conman.org - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 07:28 UTC

It was thus said that the Great Robert Pengelly <robertapengelly@gmail.com> once stated:
>
> I know it's getting confusing, it started of me asking what .model does
> and sort of got an answer to that from sean yesterday "18 Jul 2022,
> 23:46:16" (although it's more like a little under 30 hours ago) and he
> asked at the bottom "Why not use nasm?" so I replied "I used to use NASM
> but it has limitations" and the conversations continued from there.

At first, you were asking about .model from MASM. I answered (a better
answer is here [1]). I only asked about nasm because it appeared you were
trying to do this under Linux. That's it.

About .model---what I said about interoperability with higher level
languages holds true---if you are trying to interoperate with a compiled
language under MS-DOS (about the only operating system this stuff applies
to), then yes, you need to muck about with .model. If everything you are
doing is in assembly, no need to muck about with it at all.

Why does .model exist at all? Because there are programs where you might
need more than 64K of code (in which case, you might have to tell the
compiler to use the medium model), or more than 64K of data (in which case,
you might use the compact model) or an array larger than 64K (in which case
you have to use huge). Why not let the compiler choose? Because a program
might be comprised of multiple source files, or even object files from
multiple languages, and you don't want one object file to assume a data
pointer is just a 16-bit offset, and another one a 16-bit segement and
16-bit offset. Or you want to implement a slow routine in assembly
language, and you need to know the model to generate the right code.

As for the merging of data segments when you selected the small memory
model, yes, that's doing what it's supposed to do---the model only supports
one data segment and one code segment, so I would expect merging of
like-defined segment declarations. If you select large, you probably would
end up with separate data and code segments.

-spc

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_memory_models#Memory_models

Re: MASM/WASM .model

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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2022 01:07:05 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: MASM/WASM .model
From: robertap...@gmail.com (Robert Pengelly)
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 by: Robert Pengelly - Wed, 20 Jul 2022 08:07 UTC

On Wednesday, 20 July 2022 at 08:28:14 UTC+1, se...@conman.org wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Robert Pengelly <roberta...@gmail.com> once stated:
> >
> > I know it's getting confusing, it started of me asking what .model does
> > and sort of got an answer to that from sean yesterday "18 Jul 2022,
> > 23:46:16" (although it's more like a little under 30 hours ago) and he
> > asked at the bottom "Why not use nasm?" so I replied "I used to use NASM
> > but it has limitations" and the conversations continued from there.
> At first, you were asking about .model from MASM. I answered (a better
> answer is here [1]). I only asked about nasm because it appeared you were
> trying to do this under Linux. That's it.
>
> About .model---what I said about interoperability with higher level
> languages holds true---if you are trying to interoperate with a compiled
> language under MS-DOS (about the only operating system this stuff applies
> to), then yes, you need to muck about with .model. If everything you are
> doing is in assembly, no need to muck about with it at all.
>
> Why does .model exist at all? Because there are programs where you might
> need more than 64K of code (in which case, you might have to tell the
> compiler to use the medium model), or more than 64K of data (in which case,
> you might use the compact model) or an array larger than 64K (in which case
> you have to use huge). Why not let the compiler choose? Because a program
> might be comprised of multiple source files, or even object files from
> multiple languages, and you don't want one object file to assume a data
> pointer is just a 16-bit offset, and another one a 16-bit segement and
> 16-bit offset. Or you want to implement a slow routine in assembly
> language, and you need to know the model to generate the right code.
>
> As for the merging of data segments when you selected the small memory
> model, yes, that's doing what it's supposed to do---the model only supports
> one data segment and one code segment, so I would expect merging of
> like-defined segment declarations. If you select large, you probably would
> end up with separate data and code segments.
>
> -spc
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_memory_models#Memory_models
I know you answered it, I said you answered it and thanks for the better answer. All I was doing was catching Frank up on how the conversation progressed, I said about NASM having limitations that you got to work around and everyone starting suggesting different things like %include, -f obj, ect. I develop on Linux, macOS and Windows so I'm familiar to different tools (e..g. GAS, MINGW and NASM, etc), I'm also used to writing assembly I just didn't now what .model did in MASM (or WASM), I tried doing research but could quite understand what was going on hence the original question.

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