Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.

Paul

On 06/05/2021 01:31, Paul Bryan wrote:
> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
> in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
> the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.
>
> Paul

Mr Flibble is very cross.

Message ends.

/Flibble

--
😎

On Thursday, May 6, 2021 at 1:31:28 AM UTC+1, Paul Bryan wrote:
> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
> in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
> the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.
>
> Paul
Quite frankly I don't care how this discussion goes as the Python community discriminates against Asperger's suffers such as myself.

On 06/05/2021 18:56, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On Thursday, May 6, 2021 at 1:31:28 AM UTC+1, Paul Bryan wrote:
>> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
>> in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
>> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
>> the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.
>>
>> Paul
> Quite frankly I don't care how this discussion goes as the Python community discriminates against Asperger's suffers such as myself.

I believe I am also on the spectrum and feel the same way about the fluffy cloud
echo chamber for fluffy clouds that is the Python "community".

This "code of conduit" bullsh1t is getting out of hand.

Message ends.

/Flibble

--
😎

Paul Bryan <pbryan@anode.ca> writes:

> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
> in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
> the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.

Hellow Paul,

So now, i think that Evolution should be support for NNTP.

Sincerely, Python and Gnus fan Byung-Hee

--
^고맙습니다 _布德天下_ 감사합니다_^))//

On 06/05/2021 18:56, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On Thursday, May 6, 2021 at 1:31:28 AM UTC+1, Paul Bryan wrote:
>> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
>> in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
>> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
>> the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.
>>
>> Paul
> Quite frankly I don't care how this discussion goes as the Python community discriminates against Asperger's suffers such as myself.
>

I believe I am also on the spectrum and feel the same way about the fluffy cloud
echo chamber for fluffy clouds that is the Python "community".

This "code of conduct" bullsh1t is getting out of hand.

Message ends.

/Toaster

I apologize for this OT post, especially because it's in reply to an
at least partly troll post, but I just can't resist. Sorry.

Am 08.05.2021 um 14:09 schrieb Talkie Toaster:
> On 06/05/2021 18:56, Mark Lawrence wrote:

>> Quite frankly I don't care how this discussion goes as the Python
>> community discriminates against Asperger's suffers such as myself.
>>
>
> I believe I am also on the spectrum and feel the same way about the
> fluffy cloud echo chamber for fluffy clouds that is the Python
> "community".

I'm also on the autism spectrum but I do *NOT* appreciate how you
both instrumentalize our condition and use it as a self-righteous
self-defense and how you politicized it.

One of the core aspects of ASS is that we have difficulties
understanding and following common and accepted social norms. But
that is not a carte blanche for every kind of misbehavior. I don't
call myself Aspie for no reason. I believe that we have a right to
be what we are and to live according to our needs, situations,
conditions and specialties. But that doesn't mean that the rest of
the world has to unilaterally adapt to us. It's both sides! The
world needs to understand that our behavior is a little different we
need to understand that our behavior is sometimes off the limits. We
need to learn -- both sides -- how to live together and we need to
learn to *RESPECT* each other.

> This "code of conduct" bullsh1t is getting out of hand.

Unless the CoD includes ASS of course! Isn't it?! ;-)

You complain about a "fluffy cloud echo chamber", but you are
*calling* for the *same*. A fluffy cloud echo chamber where no ASS
person is ever called for any possibly disrespecting words or
behavior. A fluffy cloud echo chamber where everybody just accepts
and respects you for what you are. Does the concept sound familiar?

P.S.: *NOT* among the core symptoms of (the high-functioning levels)
of ASS is the inability to learn. Mind that! (And that includes
social norms.)

On 08/05/2021 22:28, Mirko wrote:
>
> I apologize for this OT post, especially because it's in reply to an
> at least partly troll post, but I just can't resist. Sorry.
>
>
> Am 08.05.2021 um 14:09 schrieb Talkie Toaster:
>> On 06/05/2021 18:56, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>>> Quite frankly I don't care how this discussion goes as the Python
>>> community discriminates against Asperger's suffers such as myself.
>>>
>>
>> I believe I am also on the spectrum and feel the same way about the
>> fluffy cloud echo chamber for fluffy clouds that is the Python
>> "community".
>
> I'm also on the autism spectrum but I do *NOT* appreciate how you
> both instrumentalize our condition and use it as a self-righteous
> self-defense and how you politicized it.
>
> One of the core aspects of ASS is that we have difficulties
> understanding and following common and accepted social norms. But
> that is not a carte blanche for every kind of misbehavior. I don't
> call myself Aspie for no reason. I believe that we have a right to
> be what we are and to live according to our needs, situations,
> conditions and specialties. But that doesn't mean that the rest of
> the world has to unilaterally adapt to us. It's both sides! The
> world needs to understand that our behavior is a little different we
> need to understand that our behavior is sometimes off the limits. We
> need to learn -- both sides -- how to live together and we need to
> learn to *RESPECT* each other.
>
>> This "code of conduct" bullsh1t is getting out of hand.
>
> Unless the CoD includes ASS of course! Isn't it?! ;-)
>
> You complain about a "fluffy cloud echo chamber", but you are
> *calling* for the *same*. A fluffy cloud echo chamber where no ASS
> person is ever called for any possibly disrespecting words or
> behavior. A fluffy cloud echo chamber where everybody just accepts
> and respects you for what you are. Does the concept sound familiar?
>
>
> P.S.: *NOT* among the core symptoms of (the high-functioning levels)
> of ASS is the inability to learn. Mind that! (And that includes
> social norms.)

Take a f**king chill pill, dear.

/Flibble

--
😎

On 08/05/2021 22:28, Mirko wrote:
>
> I apologize for this OT post, especially because it's in reply to an
> at least partly troll post, but I just can't resist. Sorry.
>
>
> Am 08.05.2021 um 14:09 schrieb Talkie Toaster:
>> On 06/05/2021 18:56, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>>> Quite frankly I don't care how this discussion goes as the Python
>>> community discriminates against Asperger's suffers such as myself.
>>>
>>
>> I believe I am also on the spectrum and feel the same way about the
>> fluffy cloud echo chamber for fluffy clouds that is the Python
>> "community".
>
> I'm also on the autism spectrum but I do *NOT* appreciate how you
> both instrumentalize our condition and use it as a self-righteous
> self-defense and how you politicized it.
>
> One of the core aspects of ASS is that we have difficulties
> understanding and following common and accepted social norms. But
> that is not a carte blanche for every kind of misbehavior. I don't
> call myself Aspie for no reason. I believe that we have a right to
> be what we are and to live according to our needs, situations,
> conditions and specialties. But that doesn't mean that the rest of
> the world has to unilaterally adapt to us. It's both sides! The
> world needs to understand that our behavior is a little different we
> need to understand that our behavior is sometimes off the limits. We
> need to learn -- both sides -- how to live together and we need to
> learn to *RESPECT* each other.
>
>> This "code of conduct" bullsh1t is getting out of hand.
>
> Unless the CoD includes ASS of course! Isn't it?! ;-)
>
> You complain about a "fluffy cloud echo chamber", but you are
> *calling* for the *same*. A fluffy cloud echo chamber where no ASS
> person is ever called for any possibly disrespecting words or
> behavior. A fluffy cloud echo chamber where everybody just accepts
> and respects you for what you are. Does the concept sound familiar?
>
>
> P.S.: *NOT* among the core symptoms of (the high-functioning levels)
> of ASS is the inability to learn. Mind that! (And that includes
> social norms.)

Take a f**king chill pill, dear.

/Toaster

Very well said! It's quite easy to use one's disadvantages as an excuse
for anti-social behavior. The Code of Conduct certainly isn't perfect,
but it has proven to be one of the most effective tools in keeping a
community healthy.

Usually, I find when people dump on CoCs, they're just angry at
accountability. I haven't known anyone yet who was a productive
member of Python and opposed to the CoC, at least in principle
and aim.

On 2021-05-08, Mirko <mirkok.lists@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> I apologize for this OT post, especially because it's in reply to an
> at least partly troll post, but I just can't resist. Sorry.
>
>
> Am 08.05.2021 um 14:09 schrieb Talkie Toaster:
>> On 06/05/2021 18:56, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>>> Quite frankly I don't care how this discussion goes as the Python
>>> community discriminates against Asperger's suffers such as myself.
>>>
>>
>> I believe I am also on the spectrum and feel the same way about the
>> fluffy cloud echo chamber for fluffy clouds that is the Python
>> "community".
>
> I'm also on the autism spectrum but I do *NOT* appreciate how you
> both instrumentalize our condition and use it as a self-righteous
> self-defense and how you politicized it.
>
> One of the core aspects of ASS is that we have difficulties
> understanding and following common and accepted social norms. But
> that is not a carte blanche for every kind of misbehavior. I don't
> call myself Aspie for no reason. I believe that we have a right to
> be what we are and to live according to our needs, situations,
> conditions and specialties. But that doesn't mean that the rest of
> the world has to unilaterally adapt to us. It's both sides! The
> world needs to understand that our behavior is a little different we
> need to understand that our behavior is sometimes off the limits. We
> need to learn -- both sides -- how to live together and we need to
> learn to *RESPECT* each other.
>
>> This "code of conduct" bullsh1t is getting out of hand.
>
> Unless the CoD includes ASS of course! Isn't it?! ;-)
>
> You complain about a "fluffy cloud echo chamber", but you are
> *calling* for the *same*. A fluffy cloud echo chamber where no ASS
> person is ever called for any possibly disrespecting words or
> behavior. A fluffy cloud echo chamber where everybody just accepts
> and respects you for what you are. Does the concept sound familiar?
>
>
> P.S.: *NOT* among the core symptoms of (the high-functioning levels)
> of ASS is the inability to learn. Mind that! (And that includes
> social norms.)

--
Jason C. McDonald (CodeMouse92)
Author | Speaker | Hacker | Time Lord

On 5/8/21 3:28 PM, Mirko via Python-list wrote:
>
> I apologize for this OT post, especially because it's in reply to an
> at least partly troll post, but I just can't resist. Sorry.
> <snip>
> P.S.: *NOT* among the core symptoms of (the high-functioning levels)
> of ASS is the inability to learn. Mind that! (And that includes
> social norms.)

Thank you for posting such an insightful comment. No need to apologize.
I really appreciate it. I think you are exactly correct.

On 5/8/21 6:23 PM, Jason C. McDonald wrote:
> Usually, I find when people dump on CoCs, they're just angry at
> accountability. I haven't known anyone yet who was a productive
> member of Python and opposed to the CoC, at least in principle
> and aim.

I disagree. Many people are opposed to CoCs for a variety of reasons
including the fact that many CoCs are political in nature. Others
oppose them for legal liability reasons. On his radio show Ask Noah (a
radio show about Linux), Noah has interviewed several people who oppose
CoCs for political and legal reasons. The Southeast Linux Fest in
particular explicitly decided not to have a CoC for mostly legal reasons
(which he described in episode 80).

I do agree asking people to simply not be stupid doesn't seem to work
these days for whatever reason.

> I disagree. Many people are opposed to CoCs for a variety of reasons
> including the fact that many CoCs are political in nature. Others
> oppose them for legal liability reasons. On his radio show Ask Noah (a
> radio show about Linux), Noah has interviewed several people who oppose
> CoCs for political and legal reasons. The Southeast Linux Fest in
> particular explicitly decided not to have a CoC for mostly legal reasons
> (which he described in episode 80).

That may well be. However, further complicating it are the people who
dislike accountability, as I first mentioned, but *reframe it* as a
"policial" or "legal" issue. There's no shortage of that, especially
in 2021.

If only we had a way to clear that smoke away and find out what earnest
objections remain. I, for one, haven't encountered any that didn't turn
out to be the aforementioned on further inspection. (But I don't know
all cases either.)

> I do agree asking people to simply not be stupid doesn't seem to work
> these days for whatever reason.

I hadn't noticed. ;)

--
Jason C. McDonald (CodeMouse92)
Author | Speaker | Hacker | Time Lord

On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:10 AM Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 5/8/21 6:23 PM, Jason C. McDonald wrote:
> > Usually, I find when people dump on CoCs, they're just angry at
> > accountability. I haven't known anyone yet who was a productive
> > member of Python and opposed to the CoC, at least in principle
> > and aim.
>
> I disagree. Many people are opposed to CoCs for a variety of reasons
> including the fact that many CoCs are political in nature. Others
> oppose them for legal liability reasons. On his radio show Ask Noah (a
> radio show about Linux), Noah has interviewed several people who oppose
> CoCs for political and legal reasons. The Southeast Linux Fest in
> particular explicitly decided not to have a CoC for mostly legal reasons
> (which he described in episode 80).
>
> I do agree asking people to simply not be stupid doesn't seem to work
> these days for whatever reason.

Probably the same reason it has never worked. The only thing that's
changed is the social acceptability of vilifying those you don't like.
Once upon a time, there were those in the community who had all the
power, and those on the fringes that had none, and if someone on the
fringe misbehaved, everyone inside just shunned them and they left.
Now, if someone on the fringe misbehaves and everyone treats them
badly, there's a massive political kerfuffle and everyone gets hurt.

I'm not saying that the previous situation was GOOD, but I'm far from
sure that the current situation is any better - look at the arguments
regarding branch naming, which completely sidelined all technical
considerations in favour of one single political motivation based
heavily on the decisions of people from one specific country.

ChrisA

On 09/05/2021 02:26, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:10 AM Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/8/21 6:23 PM, Jason C. McDonald wrote:
>>> Usually, I find when people dump on CoCs, they're just angry at
>>> accountability. I haven't known anyone yet who was a productive
>>> member of Python and opposed to the CoC, at least in principle
>>> and aim.
>>
>> I disagree. Many people are opposed to CoCs for a variety of reasons
>> including the fact that many CoCs are political in nature. Others
>> oppose them for legal liability reasons. On his radio show Ask Noah (a
>> radio show about Linux), Noah has interviewed several people who oppose
>> CoCs for political and legal reasons. The Southeast Linux Fest in
>> particular explicitly decided not to have a CoC for mostly legal reasons
>> (which he described in episode 80).
>>
>> I do agree asking people to simply not be stupid doesn't seem to work
>> these days for whatever reason.
>
> Probably the same reason it has never worked. The only thing that's
> changed is the social acceptability of vilifying those you don't like.
> Once upon a time, there were those in the community who had all the
> power, and those on the fringes that had none, and if someone on the
> fringe misbehaved, everyone inside just shunned them and they left.
> Now, if someone on the fringe misbehaves and everyone treats them
> badly, there's a massive political kerfuffle and everyone gets hurt.
>
> I'm not saying that the previous situation was GOOD, but I'm far from
> sure that the current situation is any better - look at the arguments
> regarding branch naming, which completely sidelined all technical
> considerations in favour of one single political motivation based
> heavily on the decisions of people from one specific country.

I've created what I consider to be the best open source CoC there is for my
project neoGFX:

https://github.com/i42output/neoGFX/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md

/Toaster

On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 5:29 AM Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Probably the same reason it has never worked. The only thing that's
> changed is the social acceptability of vilifying those you don't like.
> Once upon a time, there were those in the community who had all the
> power, and those on the fringes that had none, and if someone on the
> fringe misbehaved, everyone inside just shunned them and they left.
> Now, if someone on the fringe misbehaves and everyone treats them
> badly, there's a massive political kerfuffle and everyone gets hurt.

Just a note here, though not in relation to CoC but
as someone speaking English far away from a country
called America, sometimes i wonder at some changes
introduced just because it does not ring well within the
country. I agree that the US pushed many many changes
used around the world but English is not the property of
the people of a specific country. The English community
is the sum of people speaking English over the world.
Though i am very far from CPython contributions but once
changes no longer occur on the basis of technical reasons
it raises eyebrows far beyond CPython contributors.

Now in the Python community we must verify not only
grammatical and structural errors but also US-based
nuances in the language. This requires community
folks to be in tune with American current affairs and
ideological tendencies. This might be a bit too much
work as the bridge of union of the community is the Python
language, usage and tools. Though English is a core-part
of the programming language, this is going too deep.

A practical effect of this is that each and every event
posters, flyers and websites have to be double checked
against US nuances and phrasing. And the PSF must
make sure that events sponsored by it or affiliated must
follow the same standards.

This post is in no way a US-bashing one, or intended to be
hurtful in any way. It's an observation that some changes
appear totally ok to english speakers until you understand
that this and that sounds wrong in a particular country. This
poses the question of the legitimacy of the influence of a certain
nation over the PSF.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius

I meant to quote this part actually:

I'm not saying that the previous situation was GOOD, but I'm far from
sure that the current situation is any better - look at the arguments
regarding branch naming, which completely sidelined all technical
considerations in favour of one single political motivation based
heavily on the decisions of people from one specific country.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius

On 09/05/2021 20.31, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 5:29 AM Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Probably the same reason it has never worked. The only thing that's
>> changed is the social acceptability of vilifying those you don't like.
>> Once upon a time, there were those in the community who had all the
>> power, and those on the fringes that had none, and if someone on the
>> fringe misbehaved, everyone inside just shunned them and they left.
>> Now, if someone on the fringe misbehaves and everyone treats them
>> badly, there's a massive political kerfuffle and everyone gets hurt.
>
>
> Just a note here, though not in relation to CoC but
> as someone speaking English far away from a country
> called America, sometimes i wonder at some changes
> introduced just because it does not ring well within the
> country. I agree that the US pushed many many changes
> used around the world but English is not the property of
> the people of a specific country. The English community
> is the sum of people speaking English over the world.
> Though i am very far from CPython contributions but once
> changes no longer occur on the basis of technical reasons
> it raises eyebrows far beyond CPython contributors.
>
> Now in the Python community we must verify not only
> grammatical and structural errors but also US-based
> nuances in the language. This requires community
> folks to be in tune with American current affairs and
> ideological tendencies. This might be a bit too much
> work as the bridge of union of the community is the Python
> language, usage and tools. Though English is a core-part
> of the programming language, this is going too deep.
>
> A practical effect of this is that each and every event
> posters, flyers and websites have to be double checked
> against US nuances and phrasing. And the PSF must
> make sure that events sponsored by it or affiliated must
> follow the same standards.
>
> This post is in no way a US-bashing one, or intended to be
> hurtful in any way. It's an observation that some changes
> appear totally ok to english speakers until you understand
> that this and that sounds wrong in a particular country. This
> poses the question of the legitimacy of the influence of a certain
> nation over the PSF.

+1

The inherent problem however, is that an author can only write from
his/her own position. Few have lived in multiple cultures. Even fewer
have taken the trouble to understand such differences. It is often
difficult-enough to write what needs to be said in a cogent fashion,
without having to double-guess how multiple cultures might prefer things
be done. That said, there is nothing to be gained by upsetting people...

Nevertheless, when the Linux Foundation announced a discussion looking
into such (largely) US-concerning terms as Master/Slave in computing
contexts, the same newsletter blatantly localised events which were
publicised, and intended to draw, world-wide participation.
(and has yet to respond to my observation of same)

The ISO 8601 International Standard recommends usage of UTC "Universal
Time" as a means for communicating times and dates in an international
or multinational context, ie "interchange". (So the LF's advert of a
Rust seminar commencing at a time listed in "CEST" is unfriendly and
somewhat inconsiderate to people outside Europe)
- example to prove we're not 'US-bashing', even though similar US-based
examples would be very easy to quote.

ISO 8601 was updated with 'Part 2' in 2019. It deals with "common
expressions". Many of which are meaningless, or even misleading to
others. In this case, an invitation to "Spring Internships" seemed six
months early to me. However, it is 'now' to anyone in the US. Such
seasonal terms only apply to the temperate zones of this planet -
neither the tropics nor the poles have such seasons, plus many cultures
use other terms for specific times of year, eg "Monsoon Season". Thus,
are not appropriate for use amongst an international audience.

Web.Ref:
Amusing discussion of ISO 8601:2019 (not the usual dry and turgid
documentation one expects from a standards organisation)
https://www.iso.org/news/2017/02/Ref2164.html
--
Regards,
=dn

On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:58 PM dn via Python-list <python-list@python.org>
wrote:

> That said, there is nothing to be gained by upsetting people...
>

I misquoted the relevant section from Chris' answer, i wanted to quote:

*I'm not saying that the previous situation was GOOD, but I'm far fromsure
that the current situation is any better - look at the argumentsregarding
branch naming, which completely sidelined all technicalconsiderations in
favour of one single political motivation basedheavily on the decisions of
people from one specific country.*

More about changes like the above.

Nevertheless, when the Linux Foundation announced a discussion looking
> into such (largely) US-concerning terms as Master/Slave in computing
> contexts, the same newsletter blatantly localised events which were
> publicised, and intended to draw, world-wide participation.
> (and has yet to respond to my observation of same)
>
> The ISO 8601 International Standard recommends usage of UTC "Universal
> Time" as a means for communicating times and dates in an international
> or multinational context, ie "interchange". (So the LF's advert of a
> Rust seminar commencing at a time listed in "CEST" is unfriendly and
> somewhat inconsiderate to people outside Europe)
> - example to prove we're not 'US-bashing', even though similar US-based
> examples would be very easy to quote.
>
> ISO 8601 was updated with 'Part 2' in 2019. It deals with "common
> expressions". Many of which are meaningless, or even misleading to
> others. In this case, an invitation to "Spring Internships" seemed six
> months early to me. However, it is 'now' to anyone in the US. Such
> seasonal terms only apply to the temperate zones of this planet -
> neither the tropics nor the poles have such seasons, plus many cultures
> use other terms for specific times of year, eg "Monsoon Season". Thus,
> are not appropriate for use amongst an international audience.
>

The examples you quote are very tangible, clearly defined and easily
associated
Master-slave has obvious meanings, CEST is associated with a particular
area and preferring another timezone would put other people at
disadvantages.
The iso part 2 saute a l'oeil (triggers your sensors, litt. jumps at your
eye), spring
automatically spells confusions as spring goes in the same direction as
timezones

I was pointing out to politically related changes whose obviousness and
correctness
is not gauged from empirical analysis of elements in front of you but
requires the
further step of knowing what the American people deem as right or wrong not
in the sense of morals directly but more of how the country and people
live. Let's
say the word mouse. A mouse is a mouse, the rodent. But now some bad people
take the mouse as their symbol. They put the mouse on their bags, robes,
curtains,
laptops, pens thereby demonising the mouse. Now mouse lovers are also
associated
to these people as well as people who care for mouse wellness in
laboratories. This
happens in Fake Country X.

Now some in a country studied English and learnt that a mouse is a four
tiny-
footed creature with a tail. Being a mouse lover the person decided to
name a Python
conference PyMouse. Now people start dramatising the situation and label
the person
as someone not to be collaborated with, someone to be banned from all Py
affiliated
enterprises. Well that is very bad to begin with. A mouse remains a mouse
and the bad
folks using the mouse as their symbol exists in majority only in Fake
Country X. Someone
outside Fake Country X never had the chance to study or imbibe himself with
or come
across the association of this with that.

You presented some cases which are very valid and correct, but i was
referring to changes
which are not so blatant and obvious. Cases which are wrong for some people
but right for others
not because of moral correctness directly but more because of associations
present in a particular
country.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius

Greetings,

Out of curiosity, how do people without a Code of Conduct
manage and prevent abuse in between people? I was about
to organise something last year but did not find a better solution
than a code of conduct to ensure smoothness. Well the idea was a
before-hand signed code of conduct. It becomes more of an
agreement, a pact of good conduct. But i wonder how you
handle banning it altogether? Like what happens in the case of
abuse. What if you ban and people ask why? How do organisers
justify their actions? Even if a code of conduct rings not great with
some people, at least it can serve as a hint and guiding principles.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius

On 5/9/21 11:26 AM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> Out of curiosity, how do people without a Code of Conduct
> manage and prevent abuse in between people? I was about
> to organise something last year but did not find a better solution
> than a code of conduct to ensure smoothness. Well the idea was a
> before-hand signed code of conduct. It becomes more of an
> agreement, a pact of good conduct. But i wonder how you
> handle banning it altogether? Like what happens in the case of
> abuse. What if you ban and people ask why? How do organisers
> justify their actions? Even if a code of conduct rings not great with
> some people, at least it can serve as a hint and guiding principles.

An interesting perspective on codes of conduct and SELF:
https://podcast.asknoahshow.com/80, partial transcript at
http://techrights.org/2019/06/15/jeremy-sands-and-imposed-coc/

Le dimanche 9 mai 2021 à 11:56:00 UTC+2, dn a écrit :
> On 09/05/2021 20.31, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> > On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 5:29 AM Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Probably the same reason it has never worked. The only thing that's
> >> changed is the social acceptability of vilifying those you don't like.
> >> Once upon a time, there were those in the community who had all the
> >> power, and those on the fringes that had none, and if someone on the
> >> fringe misbehaved, everyone inside just shunned them and they left.
> >> Now, if someone on the fringe misbehaves and everyone treats them
> >> badly, there's a massive political kerfuffle and everyone gets hurt.
> >
> >
> > Just a note here, though not in relation to CoC but
> > as someone speaking English far away from a country
> > called America, sometimes i wonder at some changes
> > introduced just because it does not ring well within the
> > country. I agree that the US pushed many many changes
> > used around the world but English is not the property of
> > the people of a specific country. The English community
> > is the sum of people speaking English over the world.
> > Though i am very far from CPython contributions but once
> > changes no longer occur on the basis of technical reasons
> > it raises eyebrows far beyond CPython contributors.
> >
> > Now in the Python community we must verify not only
> > grammatical and structural errors but also US-based
> > nuances in the language. This requires community
> > folks to be in tune with American current affairs and
> > ideological tendencies. This might be a bit too much
> > work as the bridge of union of the community is the Python
> > language, usage and tools. Though English is a core-part
> > of the programming language, this is going too deep.
> >
> > A practical effect of this is that each and every event
> > posters, flyers and websites have to be double checked
> > against US nuances and phrasing. And the PSF must
> > make sure that events sponsored by it or affiliated must
> > follow the same standards.
> >
> > This post is in no way a US-bashing one, or intended to be
> > hurtful in any way. It's an observation that some changes
> > appear totally ok to english speakers until you understand
> > that this and that sounds wrong in a particular country. This
> > poses the question of the legitimacy of the influence of a certain
> > nation over the PSF.
> +1
>
> The inherent problem however, is that an author can only write from
> his/her own position. Few have lived in multiple cultures. Even fewer
> have taken the trouble to understand such differences. It is often
> difficult-enough to write what needs to be said in a cogent fashion,
> without having to double-guess how multiple cultures might prefer things
> be done. That said, there is nothing to be gained by upsetting people...
>
>
> Nevertheless, when the Linux Foundation announced a discussion looking
> into such (largely) US-concerning terms as Master/Slave in computing
> contexts, the same newsletter blatantly localised events which were
> publicised, and intended to draw, world-wide participation.
> (and has yet to respond to my observation of same)
>
> The ISO 8601 International Standard recommends usage of UTC "Universal
> Time" as a means for communicating times and dates in an international
> or multinational context, ie "interchange". (So the LF's advert of a
> Rust seminar commencing at a time listed in "CEST" is unfriendly and
> somewhat inconsiderate to people outside Europe)
> - example to prove we're not 'US-bashing', even though similar US-based
> examples would be very easy to quote.
>
> ISO 8601 was updated with 'Part 2' in 2019. It deals with "common
> expressions". Many of which are meaningless, or even misleading to
> others. In this case, an invitation to "Spring Internships" seemed six
> months early to me. However, it is 'now' to anyone in the US. Such
> seasonal terms only apply to the temperate zones of this planet -
> neither the tropics nor the poles have such seasons, plus many cultures
> use other terms for specific times of year, eg "Monsoon Season". Thus,
> are not appropriate for use amongst an international audience.
>
> Web.Ref:
> Amusing discussion of ISO 8601:2019 (not the usual dry and turgid
> documentation one expects from a standards organisation)
> https://www.iso.org/news/2017/02/Ref2164.html
> --
> Regards,
> =dn

Unicode:
Today, May 2021, there are still people, who naively believe, one
can encode a "code point" < 256 with a single byte.

Am 09.05.2021 um 02:34 schrieb Michael Torrie:
> On 5/8/21 3:28 PM, Mirko via Python-list wrote:
>>
>> I apologize for this OT post, especially because it's in reply to an
>> at least partly troll post, but I just can't resist. Sorry.
>> <snip>
>> P.S.: *NOT* among the core symptoms of (the high-functioning levels)
>> of ASS is the inability to learn. Mind that! (And that includes
>> social norms.)
>
> Thank you for posting such an insightful comment. No need to apologize.
> I really appreciate it. I think you are exactly correct.
>

Thanks! :-)

In case anybody wonders: When I was talking about ASS, I was
referring to "Autismus-Spektrum-Störung". That's German for "Autism
Spectrum Disorder" or short ASD. Happens when it's lake evening, you
have some beers down and talk about a topic in a foreign language. :)

On 5/5/21 9:31 PM, Paul Bryan wrote:
> Given the ease of spoofing sender addresses, and its propensity for use
> in anonymous spamming and trolling (thanks python-list-owner for
> staying on top of that!), I propose to disconnect comp.lang.python from
> the python-list mailing list. Both would then operate independently.
>
> Paul
>

No way, I have been using comp.lang.python for years, my spam filter
works ok btw.

Regards

--
Cholo Lennon
Bs.As.
ARG