On 2021-05-06, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:43 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
><python-list@python.org> wrote:
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>> Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing list before
>> there is a divorce between the forums?
>
> Nothing! Nothing at all. That is, if you're talking about *people*.
> People are absolutely welcome to join. The reason the S/N would
> improve is all the non-people who post to the newsgroup.
>
> But there are some people who simply don't want to use the mailing
> list, and that's currently a fully-welcomed option. I won't name
> names, but there definitely are people who would prefer a newsreader,

Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.

Not that I support shutting down the Usenet/email gateway -- the
signal/noise ration seems fine to me.

--
Grant

Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 10:43 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
> ><python-list@python.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Chris,
> >>
> >> Given some notice, what stops anyone from joining the mailing list before
> >> there is a divorce between the forums?
> >
> > Nothing! Nothing at all. That is, if you're talking about *people*.
> > People are absolutely welcome to join. The reason the S/N would
> > improve is all the non-people who post to the newsgroup.
> >
> > But there are some people who simply don't want to use the mailing
> > list, and that's currently a fully-welcomed option. I won't name
> > names, but there definitely are people who would prefer a newsreader,
>
> Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
> the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.
>
??? Surely that *is* using Usenet, at least you're using NNTP which
is the Usenet protocol. What's "not Usenet" about it?

> Not that I support shutting down the Usenet/email gateway -- the
> signal/noise ration seems fine to me.
>
On that I quite agree. :-)

--
Chris Green
·

> > Not that I support shutting down the Usenet/email gateway -- the
> > signal/noise ration seems fine to me.
> >
> On that I quite agree. :-)

I remind people that the existing Usenet<->Mail gateway keeps the
mailing list software on mail.python.org from migrating to Mailman 3.
I'm sure Mark Sapiro and other Mailman maintainers would like to keep
moving away from Mailman 2. If the gateway (easier anonymity) and
Mailman 3 (maybe better list archives) are of interest to you, you
might check in with the Mailman dev list and see what would be
involved in porting the gateway code to MM3.

Skip

On 2021-05-06, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
>> the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.
>>
> ??? Surely that *is* using Usenet, at least you're using NNTP which
> is the Usenet protocol. What's "not Usenet" about it?

Usenet was a distributed network of computers that transferred
articles amongst themselves using various protocols, and provided
access to readers in various ways (NNTP being one of them).

Gmane was not and is not part of that network. It is a single,
stand-alone machine operating as an email list archiver/gateway that
provides access to read/post via NTTP.

--
Grant

Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> > Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
> >> the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.
> >>
> > ??? Surely that *is* using Usenet, at least you're using NNTP which
> > is the Usenet protocol. What's "not Usenet" about it?
>
> Usenet was a distributed network of computers that transferred
> articles amongst themselves using various protocols, and provided
> access to readers in various ways (NNTP being one of them).
>
Usenet *is* still this

> Gmane was not and is not part of that network. It is a single,
> stand-alone machine operating as an email list archiver/gateway that
> provides access to read/post via NTTP.
>
It is effectively part of Usenet because the mailing lists it hosts
and gateways to its newserver are peered with Usenet.

I read several gmane 'lists' via usenet, I most certainly don't get
them directly from gmane, I get them from other usenet servers.

--
Chris Green
·

On 2021-05-06, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2021-05-06, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
>> > Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
>> >> the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.
>> >>
>> > ??? Surely that *is* using Usenet, at least you're using NNTP which
>> > is the Usenet protocol. What's "not Usenet" about it?
>>
>> Usenet was a distributed network of computers that transferred
>> articles amongst themselves using various protocols, and provided
>> access to readers in various ways (NNTP being one of them).
>>
> Usenet *is* still this

Good point.

>> Gmane was not and is not part of that network. It is a single,
>> stand-alone machine operating as an email list archiver/gateway that
>> provides access to read/post via NTTP.
>
> It is effectively part of Usenet because the mailing lists it hosts
> and gateways to its newserver are peered with Usenet.

I don't consider that as "being part of Usenet". Being part of Usenet
means that you peer with other the news hosts within Usenet, provide
the same group hiearchary (or some defined subset) and obey the normal
newsgroup control messages.

> I read several gmane 'lists' via usenet, I most certainly don't get
> them directly from gmane, I get them from other usenet servers.

Are you saying that the gmane news server is peered with other news
servers? And that you can read gmane.comp.python.general on other news
servers? That didn't used to be the case...

Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2021-05-06, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> > Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On 2021-05-06, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> >> > Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Pointing a newsreader at news.gmane.io allows one to participate in
> >> >> the mailing list just fine without using Usenet.
> >> >>
> >> > ??? Surely that *is* using Usenet, at least you're using NNTP which
> >> > is the Usenet protocol. What's "not Usenet" about it?
> >>
> >> Usenet was a distributed network of computers that transferred
> >> articles amongst themselves using various protocols, and provided
> >> access to readers in various ways (NNTP being one of them).
> >>
> > Usenet *is* still this
>
> Good point.
>
> >> Gmane was not and is not part of that network. It is a single,
> >> stand-alone machine operating as an email list archiver/gateway that
> >> provides access to read/post via NTTP.
> >
> > It is effectively part of Usenet because the mailing lists it hosts
> > and gateways to its newserver are peered with Usenet.
>
> I don't consider that as "being part of Usenet". Being part of Usenet
> means that you peer with other the news hosts within Usenet, provide
> the same group hiearchary (or some defined subset) and obey the normal
> newsgroup control messages.
>
> > I read several gmane 'lists' via usenet, I most certainly don't get
> > them directly from gmane, I get them from other usenet servers.
>
> Are you saying that the gmane news server is peered with other news
> servers? And that you can read gmane.comp.python.general on other news
> servers? That didn't used to be the case...
>
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

.... ah, but, you're probably right! Sorry. I've just looked at my
leafnode configuration and I *have* got news.gmane.io in there. I
must have done it so long ago that I'd forgotten all about it.

--
Chris Green
·